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In this case a Google search on the route, and booking direct on the operator's website is sufficient.
The railways can never compete with low-cost airlines for a simple point-to-point return journey unless airlines are heavily taxed, apart from direct high-speed routes such as London - Paris or London - Edinburgh, in such case, booking direct with the operator is sufficient.
You need to recognise that the market of low-cost airlines and the market of multi-hop international train journeys are very different.
What is so interesting about that? If you plan an INTernational trip on bahn (DB) it will also after a few questions now put you on a kind of special other part of its site.
That's not been my experience. Or it if is a special other part, it looks just the same as the normal one to me.
I think sometimes I have been sent to DB International at the ticket purchasing stage - maybe when it involves Thalys.
Likewise the CD planner - same web site, same interface, for Prague to Pilzen or Prague to Zurich, just a different set of ticket types that comes up.
Whereas with NS even for a journey into Belgium on an NS train it throws you into a different site which remembers where you were going from and to, but makes you enter the date again and won't even let you select a time - just morning, afternoon or evening.
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For airlines there is as such IATA-ticketing, but nearly half of all airlines do not accept that anymore and having to do split bookings also often sends the passenger in the dark woods.
Whereas with NS even for a journey into Belgium on an NS train it throws you into a different site which remembers where you were going from and to, but makes you enter the date again and won't even let you select a time - just morning, afternoon or evening.
Though the train looks exactly the same, it's an NS International train and not an NS Reizigers train
For trips to Belgium by the way it doesn't matter what you select as tickets are valid on any train anyway, just the date will be on your ticket. Only when a booking as a holder of an off-peak subscription the selected time is relevant, as it will influence if a discount is applied or not.
What's the worst however with NS International's booking engine is that it doesn't offer any options for seat selection. Not even if you'd like a window or aisle seat, which is the absolute minimum available choice on most other European operators websites when they can book trains with optional reservation.
As that option is not programmed into the website, they can't even sell Nightjet tickets online despite being the operator of the Dutch part of those trains.
For example, I couldn't book a trip from Hong Kong to Baku on the same airline, or even within the same alliance, on my desired day of arrival for an event, and ended up booking 2 different flights separately with a long break in Beijing as the airlines involved (Air China and Azerbaijan Airlines) didn't interline with each other. That trip went bad when thunderstorm diverted my flight for Beijing and I ended up having to buy another ticket (which ended up travelling on a twice-weekly flight from Guangzhou and got there half a day late for the event) and a claim on the travel insurance.
There were only 5 weekly flights from the whole of China to Azerbaijan, 3 weekly from Beijing on Azerbaijan Airlines and 2 weekly from Guangzhou (with a stop via Ürümqi) on China Southern. But unfortunately the direct flight from Guangzhou didn't operate on the day for arrival to the event so I couldn't use it without getting half a day late to it.
Unless one is going to take a popular route between major cities, there is also a large likelihood one needs to change flights between different companies. For example, flying internationally to somewhere in rural Finland far from Helsinki where the international segment isn't served by Finnair.
That's not been my experience. Or it if is a special other part, it looks just the same as the normal one to me.
I think sometimes I have been sent to DB International at the ticket purchasing stage - maybe when it involves Thalys.
Likewise the CD planner - same web site, same interface, for Prague to Pilzen or Prague to Zurich, just a different set of ticket types that comes up.
Whereas with NS even for a journey into Belgium on an NS train it throws you into a different site which remembers where you were going from and to, but makes you enter the date again and won't even let you select a time - just morning, afternoon or evening.
I think you get sent to DB International when you need to connect to a train that isn't operated by DB (or jointly operated). E.g. DB and SNCF both operate Paris-Karlsruhe, so you can book that on DB main regardless of whether it's an ICE or TGV. However if you want to connect elsewhere in France then DB main won't do it.
What's the worst however with NS International's booking engine is that it doesn't offer any options for seat selection. Not even if you'd like a window or aisle seat, which is the absolute minimum available choice on most other European operators websites
As that option is not programmed into the website, they can't even sell Nightjet tickets online despite being the operator of the Dutch part of those trains.
Again: what are you talking about? NS International sells NightJet tickets just fine, including selection for the accommodation.
Only issue that I might have with the booking process is that it only shows available accommodations. So for example, if I want a Deluxe coupé, I can't find it on the site if it's already fully booked.
The last time I booked via NS International it didn't offer that option. Just had a look and it still doesn't when booking a trip involving the IC Amsterdam-Berlin.
It does now offer that option for ICEs however, that was different before COVID when I couldn't select any location for my reserved seat.
Again: what are you talking about? NS International sells NightJet tickets just fine, including selection for the accommodation.
Only issue that I might have with the booking process is that it only shows available accommodations. So for example, if I want a Deluxe coupé, I can't find it on the site if it's already fully booked.
I'm not sure why specifically the IC Berlin isn't possible at the moment, but it has been possible for many years, on ICE as well. Bookings for NightJet have been possible since the launch (been there, done that), so it's definitely not a 'recent' thing.
But obviously, this discussion is about proper ticketing in the EU, not about individual operators.
Best case scenario, I think, is that all train operators will be required to offer all their tickets and fares to a public standardised API system, from which anyone can build an app/website/etc., which can be sold in any combination as a 'through-ticket', but I guess that's wishful thinking
Unless one is going to take a popular route between major cities, there is also a large likelihood one needs to change flights between different companies. For example, flying internationally to somewhere in rural Finland far from Helsinki where the international segment isn't served by Finnair.
But obviously, this discussion is about proper ticketing in the EU, not about individual operators.
Best case scenario, I think, is that all train operators will be required to offer all their tickets and fares to a public standardised API system, from which anyone can build an app/website/etc., which can be sold in any combination as a 'through-ticket', but I guess that's wishful thinking
I think what you want (and I imagine it could be done with the will) is
1) A complete timetable database, updated as required, for a journey planner to use
2) The interface to fares and availaibility so that once a journey has been found it can be priced and purchased
I suspect that if both of those are in place then there will be no problem finding organisations willing to build the necessary booking engine, so long as they can take enough commission from sales to pay for it.
In this case a Google search on the route, and booking direct on the operator's website is sufficient.
The railways can never compete with low-cost airlines for a simple point-to-point return journey unless airlines are heavily taxed, apart from direct high-speed routes such as London - Paris or London - Edinburgh, in such case, booking direct with the operator is sufficient.
You need to recognise that the market of low-cost airlines and the market of multi-hop international train journeys are very different.
When you say multi hop do you mean journeys where there are deliberate stop-overs (rather than just multileg journeys)?
If so then of course it's a different market, but that's not really what we are talking about here.
Although more tax on airlines would help, rail can provide an alternative to certain point to point journeys, more than you suggest above. I know this from experience, because I'm the kind of person who will do the research and persevere with multiple booking sites and so on, to find what the best fare is, on journeys that aren't easy to book in one go. And I can compare itwith the air alternative, and sometimes it actually is competitive. But the problem is, most people have no chance of finding that alternative.
What's potentially actively harmful (I think) are the booking sites that will offer you a fare, but an enormously expensive one because they've simply strung together a series of standard non flexible fares. Someone presented with this, not only will decide not to buy that ticket but will be given the impression that rail travel is necessarily hugely expensive and will be put off trying again in the future.
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Also... A well implemented European rail booking interface would also make it easier for people to book multi hop tickets. Of course one of the opportunities that long distance surface travel offers you is the ability to stop at interesting places along the way possibly at marginal extra cost. I know a few people who previously travelled always by air but who have tried rail a bit and worked out for themselves that, say, they can combine their ski trip to Switzerland with a couple of nights in paris on the way back, before getting the Eurostar back to the UK.
In those cases, their decision to try rail travel has been prompted by the booking process getting a bit easier for certain journeys (maybe also with a bit of encouragement from me). Some aspects of booking international rail travel actually *have* improved compared to ten years ago - much of this down to more operators selling on the internet. But this ease of booking is still really patchy in terms of what journeys are possible.
In this case a Google search on the route, and booking direct on the operator's website is sufficient.
The railways can never compete with low-cost airlines for a simple point-to-point return journey unless airlines are heavily taxed, apart from direct high-speed routes such as London - Paris or London - Edinburgh, in such case, booking direct with the operator is sufficient.
You need to recognise that the market of low-cost airlines and the market of multi-hop international train journeys are very different.
I presume by that you mean that low cost airlines will always be cheaper than a rail journey that is more complex than a single high speed journey.
I wouldn't presume to tell you what you need to recognize, but I would suggest that there are a growing number of people who wish to avoid air travel on environmental grounds. Yes it probably will cost more and that will put some people off but there will be those who are willing and prepared to pay more and maybe consider the travel to be part of the holiday rather than something to be endured. But the difficulty of obtaining through tickets and lack of protection if they miss connections is another barrier and one that in principle should be easier to avoid.
The balance between costs is also different for individuals and families - you will pay the full adult fare for children aged 2 and up for air travel, and that's rarely the case on trains.
(As to how much better environmentally high speed rail actually is than air travel is another question. Or overnight travel with the reduced occupancy compared to day coaches, + penalty of lugging showers and water tanks for them around etc.)
When you say multi hop do you mean journeys where there are deliberate stop-overs (rather than just multileg journeys)?
If so then of course it's a different market, but that's not really what we are talking about here.
Although more tax on airlines would help, rail can provide an alternative to certain point to point journeys, more than you suggest above. I know this from experience, because I'm the kind of person who will do the research and persevere with multiple booking sites and so on, to find what the best fare is, on journeys that aren't easy to book in one go. And I can compare itwith the air alternative, and sometimes it actually is competitive. But the problem is, most people have no chance of finding that alternative.
What's potentially actively harmful (I think) are the booking sites that will offer you a fare, but an enormously expensive one because they've simply strung together a series of standard non flexible fares. Someone presented with this, not only will decide not to buy that ticket but will be given the impression that rail travel is necessarily hugely expensive and will be put off trying again in the future.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Also... A well implemented European rail booking interface would also make it easier for people to book multi hop tickets. Of course one of the opportunities that long distance surface travel offers you is the ability to stop at interesting places along the way possibly at marginal extra cost. I know a few people who previously travelled always by air but who have tried rail a bit and worked out for themselves that, say, they can combine their ski trip to Switzerland with a couple of nights in paris on the way back, before getting the Eurostar back to the UK.
In those cases, their decision to try rail travel has been prompted by the booking process getting a bit easier for certain journeys (maybe also with a bit of encouragement from me). Some aspects of booking international rail travel actually *have* improved compared to ten years ago - much of this down to more operators selling on the internet. But this ease of booking is still really patchy in terms of what journeys are possible.
Yes. Most airline search engines have a multi-city feature which allows me to enter arbitrary stopovers into the system (the notable exception is low-cost airlines, which primarily serve point-to-point markets).
However, I have yet to find such feature on any railway search engines, not even domestically on National Rail (in such case it can offer a combination of tickets, including break of journeys, while returning the result, or offer a series of separate singles depending on if it is better value).
Given that the strength of railway travel, compared to the air, is the ability to have stopovers with minimal cost (take-off and landings of an aircraft is very expensive), the lack of such features is a major barrier for people to plan an affordable rail journey.
For example, I couldn't make any ticketing websites to give me an itinerary with tickets for a London - Stockholm journey involving travelling on the sleeper between Hamburg and Stockholm at my desired times, and it seemed that the onward ferry journey to Turku isn't part of the system at all so it can only be booked separately. Compared to air travel, I can enter into the engine "London - Stockholm", "Stockholm - Turku" and it may even return me a through fare if one is available.
Frankly I wasn't willing to research the journey any more after I spent hours of finding out options when I had to commit to making multiple bookings to get from London to Turku on the surface, and I didn't make this journey but booked air tickets to another destination instead, given that the reason of researching overnight ferry travel was because accommodation in Turku was expensive.
Even domestically can you imagine how many people, who are not familiar with the Routeing Guide, have been put off making triangular journeys when the price of 3 singles added together is horrendous?
For example, earlier this month, I made a journey from Cricklewood to Windermere where I stayed for 1 night, then went to Derby for another night, on the next day I went to Nottingham for a stopover before finally returning home. Can you imagine how much a foreign traveller with no knowledge of the ticketing system in Great Britain will likely overpay, by entering Cricklewood (or London) - Windermere, Windermere - Derby, Derby - Nottingham and Nottingham - Cricklewood (or London) into National Rail Enquiries and sum the prices together, or ended up buying an overpriced Interrail pass when a simple super off-peak return is actually valid for the whole of the itinerary?
If we actually have proper single-leg pricing than buying all legs as single won't be such a rip-off, despite the lack of stopover functionality in the journey planner, just like low-cost airlines where everything is priced as singles.
Bahn.de does actually allow you to extend stop time at intermediate points on a single ticket (up to maybe 48 or 72hrs?) although it's not that easy to use. Surprisingly it often works on cheap international sparpreis tickets.
But yes not many rail booking systems make this all that straightforward and the UK's current arrangement is a disaster for anyone unfamiliar with its intricacies.
Yes. Most airline search engines have a multi-city feature which allows me to enter arbitrary stopovers into the system (the notable exception is low-cost airlines, which primarily serve point-to-point markets).
They may well have a multi-city feature, but journeys planned on them often only get very expensive results. It certainly cannot be said that cheap stopovers are a common feature of airline fares. Some may be available, but this is more by chance than design.
I really cannot imagine that the stopover market is very large compared to those who wishing to travel from A to B and back again. The cost of developing such fare structures and website search engines is unlikely to be covered by the increased revenue that they may generate.
For example, I couldn't make any ticketing websites to give me an itinerary with tickets for a London - Stockholm journey involving travelling on the sleeper between Hamburg and Stockholm at my desired times, and it seemed that the onward ferry journey to Turku isn't part of the system at all so it can only be booked separately. Compared to air travel, I can enter into the engine "London - Stockholm", "Stockholm - Turku" and it may even return me a through fare if one is available.
These kinds of journeys are never going to be competitive by price with the airlines. So what is the point in spending money developing programs to cope with offering such journeys, if the resultant fare is only going to be rarely bought? Many transport undertakings are not interested in carrying long distance international passengers at ultra low per km fares, if they can fill their trains/boats/buses at higher domestic/short distance fares without the risks of missed connections etc. If the resultant London-Turku/wherever fare (adding all the constituent bits of yield managed tickets) comes out at £800, who is going to buy it?
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