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'EU regulations would prevent ensuring level access for disabled people on HS2': Is Grayling right?

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Tio Terry

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If I’m reading figure 13 of https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/360478/response/885162/attach/4/161020 HS2 HS2 EN REP 000 000016 P04 Level Access At the Platform Train Interface PTI.pdf correctly, the floor of a Mk3 carriage is at 1245mm. That sounds like a fairly representative example of the stock we currently have on the network. HS2 are proposing a height of 1200mm, so you’d get level boarding on the captive sections and you’re no worse off height wise on the classic network.

Is the proposal for HS2 1300mm or 1200mm? 100mm is roundly 4 inches, the PRM TSI and the Equalities Act - the UK legislation - requires a step of no greater than 50mm and a gap of no more than 50mm to be compliant.

I'm sorry but what the existing MK 3 stock gives is no guide to what it is necessary to provide for new builds. The existence of a non-compliance is not an acceptable reason to design a new infrastructure to continue it.

There are many existing platforms that are not at 915mm - this is adequately demonstrated by Crossrail who are struggling to make the 345's compliant on both GWR and GER lines where existing platform designs and construction are very different. I find it very strange that 915mm is not being specified for HS2 which would be compliant with the PRM TSI. If it was specified then Graylings claim would be totally negated.
 
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JamesT

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Whereas if they go for UK platform height and low floor, they can have level boarding everywhere.

TBH, I think this should be mandated for all new stock without exception, effective immediately. The benefits are immense.

Though as I think has been pointed out already, you’ll then have issues with what you do to get over the bogies inside the train.
 

Bletchleyite

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Though as I think has been pointed out already, you’ll then have issues with what you do to get over the bogies inside the train.

Depends what you mean by "issues". No UK train (other than possibly the longitudinally seated LO Electrostars) is set up for wheelchair users to move around the train, they enter into a specific area where all the facilities for them (the accessible toilet and the wheelchair space(s)) are provided all together. Therefore internal ramps and steps are not an issue - you place the doors away from the bogies and the wheelchair accommodation in a centre section between them.

The GA FLIRTs are an example of how it should be. (The Merseyrail ones are a bit different as they are using small wheels to allow low floor throughout, more like LU which has low platforms on the deep lines).
 

Pigeon

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In my opinion, many statements "Europe does not allow ..." are in fact not backed up by fact or possible interpretation.

It's true of all the ones where I've bothered to look up the actual facts about the supposed EU regulation and see what it really says (or else discover that there is no such regulation and nothing to suggest there ever will be).

One detail which does concern me is that the govt. has stated there intent of having a repeal bill which will actually adopt all EU laws which are not yet on UK statute books (probably meaning that at that point the UK will be the most EU of any European country). This could lead to some unwanted surprises.

Well, that would make sense... get it in quickly while there's still the chance...

Seems to me British governments rather like EU directives. They see them as a chance to do things they want to do which will be unpopular. They can label some action as "just implementing this EU directive", but what they actually implement is way beyond anything the directive requires; the public never bothers to check the details of what the directive really does require, and uncritically swallows the government's response to criticism of "not our fault mate, the EU made us do it". The notion that the entire structure of the privatised railway was forced on us by the EU (while countries like France and Germany didn't have to do the same thing because they're "in the club" so are allowed to get away with ignoring anything that doesn't suit them) is probably the most extreme example. We're now seeing the consequences of letting this sort of thing go on too long and forgetting how it's supposed to work and letting it get out of hand...

Having said that, though, I have always thought it was daft to impose European standards on British railways simply because they are separate systems so there's no point - even if they weren't already fundamentally and irreconcilably incompatible for reasons like loading gauge. A bit like if when Ireland was all under foreign rule London had insisted they convert all their railways to four foot eight and a half. Yes, I know we've got the Channel Tunnel now, but the way that's operated and ever foreseeably will be it effectively makes no difference.
 

MarkyT

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Whereas if they go for UK platform height and low floor, they can have level boarding everywhere.

TBH, I think this should be mandated for all new stock without exception, effective immediately. The benefits are immense.

The problem with that is only two companies currently have a low floor offer, Alstom and Talgo, which they both achieve by having separate power cars, avoiding bulky power bogies under passenger accomodation. HS2 have specified distributed drive however, and while Alstom could supply a high floor AGV with distributed drive instead of their latest Avelia products, Talgo only do low floor and power cars currently, although no doubt they could also do a false floor at around 1200mm.
 

edwin_m

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Whereas if they go for UK platform height and low floor, they can have level boarding everywhere.

TBH, I think this should be mandated for all new stock without exception, effective immediately. The benefits are immense.
However Heathrow Express, London Overground and Crossrail have already adopted 1100mm platforms where freight trains do not pass them. These are level with the entrances of their EMUs.
 

FQTV

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Grayling has claimed EU regulations would prevent ensuring level access for disabled people on HS2. Is he right, because if not he needs calling on it.

http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...dard-in-post-brexit-rolling-stock-regulation-

He’s should be called out; he’s a serial ‘misleader’ and on subjects which he cannot be allowed to claim a defence of lack of expertise.

During the Commons statement on the early ending of the Virgin Trains East Coast franchise, he claimed that the EU prevents nationalisation of the raliways.

Since no-one in Parliament called him out on that particular fallacy, it seems unlikely that anyone will challenge him on this attempt to score a partisan political point from a gross over simplication of how things work in the real world.
 

Wolfie

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He’s should be called out; he’s a serial ‘misleader’ and on subjects which he cannot be allowed to claim a defence of lack of expertise.

During the Commons statement on the early ending of the Virgin Trains East Coast franchise, he claimed that the EU prevents nationalisation of the raliways.

Since no-one in Parliament called him out on that particular fallacy, it seems unlikely that anyone will challenge him on this attempt to score a partisan political point from a gross over simplication of how things work in the real world.
The nationalisation comment suited Jezza hence no challenge...
 

HSTEd

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During the Commons statement on the early ending of the Virgin Trains East Coast franchise, he claimed that the EU prevents nationalisation of the raliways.

Since no-one in Parliament called him out on that particular fallacy, it seems unlikely that anyone will challenge him on this attempt to score a partisan political point from a gross over simplication of how things work in the real world.

From December 2019, he is correct.
Compulsory franchising comes in, so there is little point nationalising it just to privatise it again then.
 

FQTV

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From December 2019, he is correct.
Compulsory franchising comes in, so there is little point nationalising it just to privatise it again then.

Again, a gross over-simplification of the Market Pillar of the Fourth Railway Package.
 

HSTEd

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Again, a gross over-simplification of the Market Pillar of the Fourth Railway Package.
A gross oversimplification perpetrated by the European Council then?

The 4th railway package includes the proposal to open up domestic passenger railways to new entrants and services from December 2019. Companies would be able either to offer competing services, such as a new train service on a particular route, or to bid for public service rail contracts through tendering. The proposed changes would make competitive tendering mandatory for public service rail contracts in the EU.

That sounds pretty conclusive to me, all contracts will be put out for competitive tender with the private sector.
Which combined with existing forced unbundling of infrastructure leads inevitably to a system that looks pretty much exactly as the current UK one does.
 

Bletchleyite

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I really don't understand why the EU does this kind of thing - if it isn't broke, don't fix it. It's one of the biggest reasons that would push me in favour of a "strict" Brexit, i.e. total withdrawal with no deal - this kind of policy matter really needs to be legislated on a per-country basis in my view. Of course if the decision was made to tender or franchise, then by all means ensure that is on an equal basis to all EU providers, but the decision on what to nationalise and what to privatise is well outside what I would consider a fair remit for the EU.
 

gsnedders

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That sounds pretty conclusive to me, all contracts will be put out for competitive tender with the private sector.
Which combined with existing forced unbundling of infrastructure leads inevitably to a system that looks pretty much exactly as the current UK one does.
I mean there is one big difference, ignoring TS-let franchises since 2016: the nationally owned incumbents can bid for the tender. Also, as far as I'm aware, there's no requirement to tender them out: you can simply allow everyone to operate on an open access basis, individually negotiating with the infrastructure owner.

The UK isn't the only country with a system like this; Germany has been the same for a while, for example.

I really don't understand why the EU does this kind of thing - if it isn't broke, don't fix it. It's one of the biggest reasons that would push me in favour of a "strict" Brexit, i.e. total withdrawal with no deal - this kind of policy matter really needs to be legislated on a per-country basis in my view. Of course if the decision was made to tender or franchise, then by all means ensure that is on an equal basis to all EU providers, but the decision on what to nationalise and what to privatise is well outside what I would consider a fair remit for the EU.

It's been the end-goal since the first railway package (and remember domestic freight was long ago deregulated, which I'm sure many would equally say wasn't broken) because of a desire of many of the then members wanting to reduce overall railway subsidy.
 

FQTV

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A gross oversimplification perpetrated by the European Council then?



That sounds pretty conclusive to me, all contracts will be put out for competitive tender with the private sector.
Which combined with existing forced unbundling of infrastructure leads inevitably to a system that looks pretty much exactly as the current UK one does.

The International Railway Journal provides a far more detailed review of the current situation, notes the continued significant objections to some parts of the regulation by relevant bodies, acknowledges that as long as any qualified entity may bid to operate a service, then a qualified entity may defacto be state-owned, observes that even in its current form the legislation permits certain parts of the status quo to remain until 2034 and, importantly, that the use of holding companies renders the part of the legislation relating to separation and 'unbundling' largely impotent:

Mandatory unbundling was opposed by CER, which argues the Fourth Railway Package includes adequate provisions to protect the interests of new entrants in countries where the holding company structure persists. “There are sufficient safeguards in the legislation to ensure non-discriminatory access to infrastructure,” Lochman says. “Without system integration a railway simply cannot function, and you can’t separate the infrastructure manager off without ensuring you maintain proper system integration. The Fourth Railway Package is an opportunity to ensure that this is implemented in the proper manner. We don’t need the pressure for full vertical separation.”

With unbundling no longer on the agenda, Lamb says the pressure is now on regulatory authorities to ensure that a level playing field is maintained in countries where incumbent operator and IM remain under the umbrella of the same holding company. Indeed, as regulation of the market matures, those responsible for policing it are beginning to show their teeth.

https://www.railjournal.com/in_depth/the-fourth-railway-package-magic-bullet-or-missed-opportunity

Accordingly, if a state owned (holding) company bids and wins the right to run a service, then it is held that Fourth Railway Package will permit this, even if the various continued challenges to the legislation do not result in further amendments.

What it does not mean, in practice is that:

Compulsory franchising comes in, so there is little point nationalising it just to privatise it again then.

That, I contend, is a gross over-simplification.

I largely agree with @Bletchleyite, though:

I really don't understand why the EU does this kind of thing - if it isn't broke, don't fix it. It's one of the biggest reasons that would push me in favour of a "strict" Brexit, i.e. total withdrawal with no deal - this kind of policy matter really needs to be legislated on a per-country basis in my view. Of course if the decision was made to tender or franchise, then by all means ensure that is on an equal basis to all EU providers, but the decision on what to nationalise and what to privatise is well outside what I would consider a fair remit for the EU.

It does indeed appear to be a poor piece of EU legislation in its current form, much like others such as EU261/2004, perhaps also borne of noble intent, bud sadly lacking in the required level of understanding of the complexity of that which it sought to affect.

The Fourth Railway Package is, arguably, critically compromised for many of the reasons reported above; without derogations, grandfather rights and, even, unilateral ignoring of certain parts of just the technical provisions, physical infrastructure across the continent would otherwise have to be ripped up and replaced, or just closed down.

That the aim was to improve accessibility, safety and accountability, service and choice and to discourage closed-shops, favouritism and even corruption is clearly not a bad thing. Legislators' ability to achieve those things is sadly lacking as evidenced by the Fourth Railway Package's current provisions, and particularly worrying given that their (now circumvented) desires with regard to vertical disintegration and tendering for services appear completely blind to the practical implications and realities of almost the very-same strategy which has already been tested in the UK since 1997.
 

HSTEd

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I mean there is one big difference, ignoring TS-let franchises since 2016: the nationally owned incumbents can bid for the tender. Also, as far as I'm aware, there's no requirement to tender them out: you can simply allow everyone to operate on an open access basis, individually negotiating with the infrastructure owner.

The UK isn't the only country with a system like this; Germany has been the same for a while, for example.

Then the network falls over because of lack of subsidy.
On an open access basis the government cannot do anything to support public rail services.
 

HSTEd

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Accordingly, if a state owned (holding) company bids and wins the right to run a service, then it is held that Fourth Railway Package will permit this, even if the various continued challenges to the legislation do not result in further amendments.

What it does not mean, in practice is that:

It means it will be privatised in the sense that the publically owned contender will have to repeatedly compete with private sector bidders to put together the most attractive bid package, and will have no access to public resources beyond those granted to the private sector players.
It will also not be permitted to make profit assumptions that are less rapacious than private sector players or it will risk challenge under State Aid rules.

Which translates as high cost capital, and the enormous and pointless infrastructure associated with privatisation (Delay Attributation Board, the bidding process itself, the ORR and various outgrowths of the SRA and numerous other pointless bodies) that we have in the UK.
 

FQTV

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Then the network falls over because of lack of subsidy.
On an open access basis the government cannot do anything to support public rail services.

Yes it can, as there's a provision for the designation of a route under the terms of a Public Service Obligation (PSO). This also applies to air and maritime traffic.
 

FQTV

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It means it will be privatised in the sense that the publically owned contender will have to repeatedly compete with private sector bidders to put together the most attractive bid package, and will have no access to public resources beyond those granted to the private sector players.
It will also not be permitted to make profit assumptions that are less rapacious than private sector players or it will risk challenge under State Aid rules.

Which translates as high cost capital, and the enormous and pointless infrastructure associated with privatisation (Delay Attributation Board, the bidding process itself, the ORR and various outgrowths of the SRA and numerous other pointless bodies) that we have in the UK.

Is this a desimplification of an oversimplification?
 

daikilo

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It means it will be privatised in the sense that the publically owned contender (…)
It will also not be permitted to make profit assumptions that are less rapacious than private sector players or it will risk challenge under State Aid rules.
(…)

Whilst I don't see the relevance to the thread title, I believe this statement is incorrect. A public sector company is not required to make a profit, but nor, more importantly, is it allowed to either provision or make a loss as this would be considered as state aid.
 

HSTEd

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Yes it can, as there's a provision for the designation of a route under the terms of a Public Service Obligation (PSO). This also applies to air and maritime traffic.
And how would an open access system square with a public service obligation?
Who will be under this obligation? How will you enforce it on companies that are free to operate those services they chose to under EU rules?
How will these operations be paid for?

Whilst I don't see the relevance to the thread title, I believe this statement is incorrect. A public sector company is not required to make a profit, but nor, more importantly, is it allowed to either provision or make a loss as this would be considered as state aid.

It would, I think, be open to challenge on the basis that it was acting in a clearly non-commercial manner. ie. it is acting in a way that no reasonable private sector company would act.
 

gsnedders

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Then the network falls over because of lack of subsidy.
On an open access basis the government cannot do anything to support public rail services.
Note that DB's long-distance services are already operated on an open access basis.
 

Bletchleyite

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And how would an open access system square with a public service obligation?

Much as I really don't support the idea it "works" (to a fashion) as it does on the present UK bus system. Anyone can operate what they like within some simple regulatory constraints intended primarily to ensure safety and consistency, and a Council (or other body) can decide they think something should be operated but isn't and so tender its operation out.
 

Bletchleyite

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Note that DB's long-distance services are already operated on an open access basis.

Though interestingly, there has never been any serious attempt at competition with DB. (Flix, and previously HKX and Locomore, and their barely-viable couple-of-trains-a-day operations, don't count, and nor really does the similar InterConnex of the early 2000s).

Where things differ from the UK, though, is that in the UK an open access operator can get what is effectively a subsidy from the incumbent by way of an ORCATS raid (either deliberately in the manner of how First North Western provided sham First Class on their services to London with no intention of ever actually pushing the sale of any tickets for seating that was identical to Standard and didn't carry the "commuter sales pitch" of being a guaranteed seat, or incidentally).
 
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Pigeon

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A gross oversimplification perpetrated by the European Council then?

That sounds pretty conclusive to me, all contracts will be put out for competitive tender with the private sector.
Which combined with existing forced unbundling of infrastructure leads inevitably to a system that looks pretty much exactly as the current UK one does.

No

When I first heard about this (it was cited by someone else trying to argue for the same conclusion) I looked it up and found a different EU document describing it at a greater level of detail - more "legislatively accurate" than "PR summary" kind of thing. Certainly on a casual reading it looked as if it prevented nationalisation, but reading it properly to extract the full meaning of every sentence (which was a considerable effort) it became apparent that it does allow ways around all the things that at first sight seem like insurmountable obstacles (while also giving the impression that it hoped you wouldn't notice).

Commonly with stuff like this, to reduce the mental overload, once I have arrived at a conclusion I tend to remember only the conclusion itself and the reasons for it being valid, not the complete process by which I arrived at it. This is one of those cases. While I might be prepared to perform the initial analysis to resolve my own lack of knowledge on a matter that interests me, I can't be bothered to do it all over again (especially given how hard it was to untangle the language) for the sake of a casual post on an internet forum. So I'm not going to argue the conclusion; I will be content to simply state it, knowing that the official information supports it and if anyone cares enough they can dig up the same document and cook their own brain analysing it with the same result.
 

sprunt

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Seems to me British governments rather like EU directives. They see them as a chance to do things they want to do which will be unpopular. They can label some action as "just implementing this EU directive", but what they actually implement is way beyond anything the directive requires; the public never bothers to check the details of what the directive really does require, and uncritically swallows the government's response to criticism of "not our fault mate, the EU made us do it".

While, of course, claiming credit for popular EU legislation such as the banning of credit card payment fees.
 
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