EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[najaB]

I’d say there’s also some degree of annoyance in England when one considers relative spending per head in the four parts of the UK

Yeah, but no more than exists between siblings when one feels that the other is getting too much of mother's attention.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Please don't conflate the actions of a few Eton boys with the English at large, who generally I find to be perfectly agreeable and to hold no ill-will towards either the Irish or those of us north of Hadrian's Wall.

I have no issue with the Irish (never been to NI, but I have been to the Republic and found it a nice and friendly place) but I do have a massive problem with sectarianism on both sides (they are as bad as each other) and will not allow it any respect whatsoever.

 

[najaB]

I don't think many people considered it, then they thought "Oops" when they realised the implications.

I, for one, didn't consider it in the run up to the vote. Not that it would have made a difference since I favour staying a member of the EU.

 

[fowler9]

I, for one, didn't consider it in the run up to the vote. Not that it would have made a difference since I favour staying a member of the EU.

Same here. I also voted remain. When the question of the border in Ireland came up I realised it had not crossed my mind and thought "Oh poo, this could make a mess". How anyone thinks it is just a problem created by the EU and why we can't just have an open border anywhere we want is beyond me, especially when the people pushing for it want to tighten up our borders.

 

[thejuggler]

On the day of the result the first thing I said to everyone who would listen was 'how will the Ireland border be resolved?' Amazing how many people said ' I never thought of that'.

For some reason Ireland does not register with people as being an EU country.

I also once came across someone who was adamant the only EU Countries using GMT were the UK and Portugal. When I mentioned Ireland he actually said 'that's Ireland, its different, they aren't the EU'!

 

[Doppelganger]

On the day of the result the first thing I said to everyone who would listen was 'how will the Ireland border be resolved?' Amazing how many people said ' I never thought of that'.

For some reason Ireland does not register with people as being an EU country.

I also once came across someone who was adamant the only EU Countries using GMT were the UK and Portugal. When I mentioned Ireland he actually said 'that's Ireland, its different, they aren't the EU'!

Strictly speaking no EU country is using GMT at present...

Although I'm not surprised since most Brits have no clue about other countries and cultures and it shows when they holiday in places like the Spanish Costas or go on large stag groups in various European cities.

 

[JonasB]

I’d say things are a little more nuanced than that. Personally whilst I have no issue with “the Irish”, I do find the whole NI situation has been exasperating at times. Meanwhile, I must admit to being sick of the anti-UK sentiment emanating from the likes of Nicola Sturgeon, although one tries not to rise to it as her whole raison d’etre is to highlight division between England and Scotland. I’d say there’s also some degree of annoyance in England when one considers relative spending per head in the four parts of the UK.

Meanwhile, I must admit to being sick of the anti-EU sentiment emanating from the likes of Nigel Farage, although one tries not to rise to it as his whole raison d’etre is to highlight division between UK and EU.

 

[Struner]

I have no issue with the Irish (never been to NI, but I have been to the Republic and found it a nice and friendly place) but I do have a massive problem with sectarianism on both sides (they are as bad as each other) and will not allow it any respect whatsoever.

Did you ever wonder how it came to that though?

 

[DerekC]

Did you ever wonder how it came to that though?

Yes - the history of Ireland is long and bloody and the English (and the Scots) have a lot to answer for. But the same is true of many countries and most people seem to be able to forgive, even what shouldn't be forgotten. The problem seems to be the mixture of religious and national identities. And no, there wasn't enough publicity given to the issue in the referendum campaign - and what there was, was just labelled "Project Fear" by the Brexitites along with anything else which could possibly be bad about their backward looking rose-coloured vision.

 

[bramling]

Yeah, but no more than exists between siblings when one feels that the other is getting too much of mother's attention.

A bit of a difference though. Spending per head is noticeably greater in NI and Scotland, more so when considered against their relative contribution. Yet (largely thanks to the SNP) all we hear is moaning and groaning about how hard done by Scotland is.

 

[GusB]

I’d say things are a little more nuanced than that. Personally whilst I have no issue with “the Irish”, I do find the whole NI situation has been exasperating at times. Meanwhile, I must admit to being sick of the anti-UK sentiment emanating from the likes of Nicola Sturgeon, although one tries not to rise to it as her whole raison d’etre is to highlight division between England and Scotland. I’d say there’s also some degree of annoyance in England when one considers relative spending per head in the four parts of the UK.

Oh dear, where do I start?

1) Why did you feel the need to put "the Irish" in inverted commas, as if being Irish wasn't a real nationality? Perhaps you refuse to believe that part of the Emerald Isle no longer wanted to be part of the United Kingdom and that they should still be British.

2) "Meanwhile, I must admit to being sick of the anti-UK sentiment emanating from the likes of Nicola Sturgeon" Yeah, and we're not sick of the anti-Scotland, anti-Irish, anti-AnyNationButEngland guff that comes from a small section of the English population?

Nicola Sturgeon is the leader of a political party whose "raison d'etre" is to bring about Scottish independence. This should hardly be a shock to you. I would say it's more "pro-Scotland" than "anti-UK", but we're all entitled to our own opinions, and if you've formed yours from the so-called "national" (ie UK) press/media, you're never going to get a balanced view.

Honestly, your fear of the SNP is bordering on hysterical. Like it or not, they're still the third largest party in Westminster and they were put there by democratic elections.

 

[bramling]

No annoyance from me. When we de industrialised the country Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales were hit as badly as anywhere outside the South East.

To me that’s a sensible viewpoint. Clearly there’s issues to be found all round the U.K. But are things any worse in Scotland than in parts of South Wales or the north-east? I think the answer is no, in fact I’d say the deal is better thanks to the increased spending per head in Scotland compared to England.

For a sparsely populated part of the U.K. Scotland doesn’t appear to do badly at all.

 

[bramling]

Oh dear, where do I start?

1) Why did you feel the need to put "the Irish" in inverted commas, as if being Irish wasn't a real nationality? Perhaps you refuse to believe that part of the Emerald Isle no longer wanted to be part of the United Kingdom and that they should still be British.

2) "Meanwhile, I must admit to being sick of the anti-UK sentiment emanating from the likes of Nicola Sturgeon" Yeah, and we're not sick of the anti-Scotland, anti-Irish, anti-AnyNationButEngland guff that comes from a small section of the English population?

Nicola Sturgeon is the leader of a political party whose "raison d'etre" is to bring about Scottish independence. This should hardly be a shock to you. I would say it's more "pro-Scotland" than "anti-UK", but we're all entitled to our own opinions, and if you've formed yours from the so-called "national" (ie UK) press/media, you're never going to get a balanced view.

Honestly, your fear of the SNP is bordering on hysterical. Like it or not, they're still the third largest party in Westminster and they were put there by democratic elections.

Firstly, the quotes were simply quoting the wording used in the original post, so you’re reading a little too much in to that.

As regards forming a view of the SNP, my view comes from seeing and hearing Sturgeon herself, and likewise other elements of the SNP not least Ian Blackford. I suspect much of England sighs each time they see the latest angry hysterical Blackford performance in the house.

 

[Bantamzen]

Firstly, the quotes were simply quoting the wording used in the original post, so you’re reading a little too much in to that.

As regards forming a view of the SNP, my view comes from seeing and hearing Sturgeon herself, and likewise other elements of the SNP not least Ian Blackford. I suspect much of England sighs each time they see the latest angry hysterical Blackford performance in the house.

Not in my part of the world, the further away from London & the Home Counties you go, the more the alienation felt by the SNP towards Westminster resonates.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Did you ever wonder how it came to that though?

Territorial and religious wars have been going for years, though neither side helped this one with their actions (and that includes the British Government).

 

[nlogax]

I suspect much of England sighs each time they see the latest angry hysterical Blackford performance in the house.

In the same way it sighs every time they see the latest angry hysterical Cox / Francois / Cash / IDS / Hoey / Gove / Jenkin / Baker / Johnson performance? Yup, with you.

 

[krus_aragon]

I don't think many people considered it, then they thought "Oops" when they realised the implications.

I'd thought about the position of Northern Ireland around the time of the referendum, but I got it in the wrong order.

I predicted that Scotland would be the first to jump ship, given that Scotland was persuaded to vote 'No' in their independence referendum on the promise of "stay in the UK, and you'll stay in the EU", and faced having EU membership taken away anyway. With Scotland presumably opting for independence the second time around, I foresaw less reason for NI to say with the remainder of the UK, and growing support for a border poll, eventually leaving England and Wales to sort out their differences alone.

I certainly didn't clock that the border in Northern Ireland would be the first stumbling block.

 

[edwin_m]

I certainly didn't clock that the border in Northern Ireland would be the first stumbling block.

It didn't really become so until the 2017 election when the government had to rely on the DUP for a majority. Before that they could just have left NI in the single market and customs union with controls at the sea crossings. The ERG weren't so advanced at the time in their process of "get what we can then demand more" so May would probably have got away with it.

 

[Struner]

Oh dear.
We’ll get that settled.
Why should we care about the Irish.

 

[JonasB]

European Parliament has responded to Johnsons new plan: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news...-offer-the-safeguards-the-eu-and-ireland-need

 

[najaB]

European Parliament has responded to Johnsons new plan...

Though this was their third objection, to my mind it's the real deal-breaker:

Third, the right of consent being offered to the Northern Irish Assembly effectively makes an agreement contingent, uncertain, provisional and unilateral decision, instead of the safety net provided for by the backstop. Furthermore, the Northern Irish Assembly has not sat for nearly three years and it is questionable whether it would be able to reconvene and take on the responsibility for an international treaty of this nature.

We can't seriously expect the EU to agree to their border being dependant on the future actions of an assembly that is completely disfunctional.

(They've tried that once already and look where it's got them).

 

[Peter Kelford]

Though this was their third objection, to my mind it's the real deal-breaker:
We can't seriously expect the EU to agree to their border being dependant on the future actions of an assembly that is completely disfunctional.

(They've tried that once already and look where it's got them).

No one should expect a deal saying 'let's leave this all to our pretend colleagues to sort it out' - it's the sort of thing one expects out of a Simpsons sketch not foreign relations with the world's 2nd largest economy. In my view, this is simply so that the PM can say to his future Puppet Parliament that the EU has failed to agree a deal, thus appearing to put the ball in the EU's court. He will then seek to get his future puppet parliament to vote to repeal the EU (No.2) Act (aka Benn Act, aka Surrender Act).

I say puppet parliament as that is what he seeks it to be, with a new speaker and frequent prorogations, even if only for a few days at a time, he can essentially break down any effort by backbenchers to pass a bill as without SO24 they can only do so on a few days a year (Opposition business days and backbench business days)

 

[Peter Kelford]

Boris Johnson's government seems to want to rule by exploiting (national) division instead of winning (parliamentary) divisions. The PM is taking advantage of the fact that Corbyn is too far left for this country (In fact, Corbyn is just being an ordinary socialist), the Lib Dems/Greens/Change UK being currently too small and the SNP not being able to fight seats outside of Scotland.

Johnson is just one compromise away from losing at the moment, and I don't see why that compromise won't be reached at the 11th hour.

That compromise may well also pave the way for (ironically) more continental-style governments with their multilateral coalitions.

 

[fowler9]

Boris Johnson's government seems to want to rule by exploiting (national) division instead of winning (parliamentary) divisions. The PM is taking advantage of the fact that Corbyn is too far left for this country (In fact, Corbyn is just being an ordinary socialist), the Lib Dems/Greens/Change UK being currently too small and the SNP not being able to fight seats outside of Scotland.

Johnson is just one compromise away from losing at the moment, and I don't see why that compromise won't be reached at the 11th hour.

That compromise may well also pave the way for (ironically) more continental-style governments with their multilateral coalitions.

The only people Johnson is compromising with at the moment is the DUP not the EU so nothing is going to change. He is compromising with a minority Northern Irish party. Well done Boris.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Strikes me that this is now just a scheme to make it easy to blame the EU/Dublin for no-deal or at the very least for any extension. I.e. "We moved significantly in our position and the recalcitrant Brussels Bureaucrats didn't move an inch, they just want to punish us plucky Brits!" etc etc. Which is clearly preposterous but will play well with the ERG, Tory Party membership and likely Brexit Party voters...

It sometimes seems to me that Boris Johnson's attitude to the EU negotiations is a bit like going into a shop to buy a computer, priced at £500. Boris offers £10, which the shop staff instantly but politely reject because the computer is for sale for £500. He then goes back after a few weeks with an offer of £15. When the shop again rejects this because the computer is for sale for £500, Boris throws a tantrum, declaring the he has been perfectly reasonable in upping his offer, showing that he was willing to compromise, while the shop was intransigent in refusing to talk about his £15 offer. He then declares that's entirely the shop's fault that he'll probably end up not buying the computer for £15.

 

[John Griffiths]

And when he ends up with no computer and blames the howwid, howwid foreign types for his plight. Not his fault at all.

 

[SteveP29]

Twitter jail for 12 hours for me this morning because I pointed out that we are not at war with the EU, they haven't changed the goalposts and even if we were at war, we'd never win, it's 27 countries against 1.
Rounded it off with f*** off

It must have been mentioning war, as several people I've seen on Twitter swear with impunity and nothing seems to happen to them

 

[nlogax]

Twitter jail for 12 hours for me this morning

There's something seemingly off with Twitter's ban hammer algorithm, at least in terms of any real consistency with the way it's applied.

 

[Peter Kelford]

Twitter jail for 12 hours for me this morning because I pointed out that we are not at war with the EU, they haven't changed the goalposts and even if we were at war, we'd never win, it's 27 countries against 1.
Rounded it off with f*** off

It must have been mentioning war, as several people I've seen on Twitter swear with impunity and nothing seems to happen to them

1 fussy man, and 1 moderator not wanting the next scandal.

 

[Bantamzen]

It sometimes seems to me that Boris Johnson's attitude to the EU negotiations is a bit like going into a shop to buy a computer, priced at £500. Boris offers £10, which the shop staff instantly but politely reject because the computer is for sale for £500. He then goes back after a few weeks with an offer of £15. When the shop again rejects this because the computer is for sale for £500, Boris throws a tantrum, declaring the he has been perfectly reasonable in upping his offer, showing that he was willing to compromise, while the shop was intransigent in refusing to talk about his £15 offer. He then declares that's entirely the shop's fault that he'll probably end up not buying the computer for £15.

That's a bit unfair. BoJo isn't offering £15 for the £500 computer, he is offering a bag of dead badgers*, and then threatening the shop with his rabid army of dead badgers* if they don't accept his initial offer off £10.

It is almost a genius plan save one small flaw, the bag of dead badgers* are worth... Sod all....

(* And by dead badgers I mean the ever diminishing number of hard core Brexiteers, who seem convinced that their desire to have an all out exit with no deal is enough to frighten the EU into capitulation**)

(** Which of course is complete and utter Brexiteer fantasy nonsense)