EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Doppelganger]

As much as I dislike admitting it, it really does.

We'll have to agree to disagree then. Looking beyond the UK is clearly not an insular perspective is it?

Equally remainers tend to be the ones who did some analysis to come to an informed decision, so ignorance is the opposite end of the spectrum in these cases.

 

[Gooner18]

We'll have to agree to disagree then. Looking beyond the UK is clearly not an insular perspective is it?

Equally remainers tend to be the ones who did some analysis to come to an informed decision, so ignorance is the opposite end of the spectrum in these cases.

So you’re saying all the people who voted to leave are arrogant, stupid and let my guess racists ?

 

[Esker-pades]

We'll have to agree to disagree then. Looking beyond the UK is clearly not an insular perspective is it?

One argument from the Leave campaign is that leaving the EU is less insular because it encourages the UK to look to the rest of the world*.

Equally remainers tend to be the ones who did some analysis to come to an informed decision, so ignorance is the opposite end of the spectrum in these cases.

Just because one side is not ignorant doesn't mean that the other is. People can vote leave without being ignorant. For example, Jacob Rees-Mogg voted leave because it will promote his "prostrate-before-the-almighty-free-market" economic views. That is not ignorance.



*Clearly, being in the EU does not negate engaging with the rest of the world, hence why I disagree with that argument. But, it was one that was used.

 

[Doppelganger]

So you’re saying all the people who voted to leave are arrogant, stupid and let my guess racists ?

I didn't say that.

It isn't all so black and white, but generalisations are there for a reason.

It is for instance almost certain that if you are a racist you would have voted to leave the EU. That is an important distinction compared to everyone who voted leave is a racist...

 

[furnessvale]

This is true as have been a net contributor to the EU, helping to develop less prosperous parts of Europe and thereby reduce inequality. However, the point made by others is that if we hadn't sent that money to the EU it's unlikely a Tory government would have spent it on regional development.

But your argument is sprious. Not giving the money to the eu does not mean it will be spent in the UK.

At least, if the money had not been spent in the UK, by a government of any persuasion (why single out tories), then UK personal and/or business taxpayers would have benefited from reduced taxation.

 

[Gooner18]

I didn't say that.

It isn't all so black and white, but generalisations are there for a reason.

It is for instance almost certain that if you are a racist you would have voted to leave the EU. That is an important distinction compared to everyone who voted leave is a racist...

Ahh ok , so would you say Labour is more of a remain party ?if so they have a massive racial problem at the moment.
I may generalise and say labour is currently very , very left wing and is racist , intolerant and pushing anyone out who dares to have a different opinion to the socialist , momentum views ....

 

[Esker-pades]

Ahh ok , so would you say Labour is more of a remain party ?if so they have a massive racial problem at the moment.
I may generalise and say labour is currently very , very left wing and is racist , intolerant and pushing anyone out who dares to have a different opinion to the socialist , momentum views ....

I have no idea how this response is relevant.

 

[Doppelganger]

I have no idea how this response is relevant.

It is whataboutery...

 

[Gooner18]

It is whataboutery...

It’s in reply to the generalisation that every racist voted leave , when one could quite equally say that labour is currently a racist , intolerant party who are more for remain

 

[Gooner18]

I have no idea how this response is relevant.

As I have put above ,

It’s in reply to the generalisation that every racist voted leave , when one could quite equally say that labour is currently a racist , intolerant party who are more for remain

 

[Doppelganger]

It’s in reply to the generalisation that every racist voted leave , when one could quite equally say that labour is currently a racist , intolerant party who are more for remain

And? So they are both racist. Isn't that something!

We really are living in a sad world...

 

[fowler9]

So you’re saying all the people who voted to leave are arrogant, stupid and let my guess racists ?

I don't think that is what was said. Certainly all the racists will have been on the leave side though.

 

[fowler9]

As I have put above ,

It’s in reply to the generalisation that every racist voted leave , when one could quite equally say that labour is currently a racist , intolerant party who are more for remain

Last time I checked the Labour leader is a Brexiteer. Both main parties are split.

 

[Gooner18]

And? So they are both racist. Isn't that something!

We really are living in a sad world...

Indeed, my point is that all the “ remainers” seem to think they have all the moral high ground and indeed are far more intelligent than anyone who dares to disagree

 

[Gooner18]

Last time I checked the Labour leader is a Brexiteer. Both main parties are split.

He is indeed , again I am using generalisation with regards to the Labour Party

 

[NoMorePacers]

Indeed, my point is that all the “ remainers” seem to think they have all the moral high ground and indeed are far more intelligent than anyone who dares to disagree

And leavers don't...

 

[Gooner18]

And leavers don't...

Did not say they don’t , interesting that it’s all both sides , right ?

 

[mmh]

We'll have to agree to disagree then. Looking beyond the UK is clearly not an insular perspective is it?

Equally remainers tend to be the ones who did some analysis to come to an informed decision, so ignorance is the opposite end of the spectrum in these cases.

Pigeonholing either set of 17 million as a homogeneous group of stupid uninformed people because you voted a different way is pretty ignorant.

It's no different to Labour supporters claiming all Tories put self and party before country, or Tory supporters claiming all Labour are Marxists.

 

[Doppelganger]

Pigeonholing either set of 17 million as a homogeneous group of stupid uninformed people because you voted a different way is pretty ignorant.

It's no different to Labour supporters claiming all Tories put self and party before country, or Tory supporters claiming all Labour are Marxists.

Which is why I said "tend to be" and not are

 

[mmh]

Anyone who genuinely believes this all Tories / Labour / Leavers / Remainers are stupid / evil / uncaring etc. nonsense should get out more and meet people with different opinions.

Very few people in the real world are not well meaning and intentioned, amd no political stance has a monopoly on truth or intelligence.

 

[Doppelganger]

very few people in the real world are not well meaning and intentioned, amd no political stance has a monopoly on truth or intelligence.

Oh? So how do how UKIP, EDL or BNP fit into your view then?

 

[Gooner18]

Oh? So how do how UKIP, EDL or BNP fit into your view then?

I view them as extreme parties that have no place in British society , you ?

 

[Gooner18]

How do you find momentum, Irish People liberation organisation, now the IRA etc ?

 

[Doppelganger]

I view them as extreme parties that have no place in British society , you ?

Well the likes of Tommy Robinson was at the leavers march, so I would say any leaver should take a good look to see what sort of bed fellows they are making.

 

[Gooner18]

Well the likes of Tommy Robinson was at the leavers march, so I would say any leaver should take a good look to see what sort of bed fellows they are making.

Ohh that’s a very generalised view of the people who voted leave , some may say a typical remain view....and indeed some may say look at what the extreme left are doing to the Labour Party , pushing anyone out who dares to disagree, again we could say remain may want to have a look at what sort of bed fellows they are making

 

[Doppelganger]

Ohh that’s a very generalised view of the people who voted leave , some may say a typical remain view....

So where is the condemnation?

Say something to show your views rather than the constant whataboutery

 

[Gooner18]

So where is the condemnation?

Say something to show your views rather than the constant whataboutery

My views are that remain and leave are as bad as each other , not everyone who voted leave is uneducated, racist etc. When indeed it’s equal in the remain side.

Not everything that’s currently going on is down to brexit , although I will confess a lot of the problems is the uncertainty and MP’s all in fighting instead of getting on with it

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I'm talking about anyone who is helping to turn this country into a banana republic by threatening violence because they can't have their exact way. Brexit has turned a lot of people a little more nasty, insular and ignorent.

Agreed , on both sides

I would also agree that threatening violence is absolutely wrong. But as far as I can make out, virtually all the threats of violence (and actual violence) seem to be on the Leave side. As one example, look at the Remain and Leave demonstrations last week. On the remain demo, even the very lowest estimate was over 300K people present. And as far as I'm aware, no reports of any trouble at all. On the leave demo, much lower numbers - maybe some thousands. But still several arrests for crimes including assaulting police officers. Then look at the repeated instances of aggression towards Remain-supporting MPs - stretching up to the actual murder of Jo Cox. I'm sure there are a few isolated cases on the other side, but the pattern of violence is definitely very one-sided, and saying "Agreed , on both sides' doesn't really capture that.

And I'd be pretty confident that the extent of violence and threats on the Leave side is not a coincidence - it's likely to be at least in part a result of the way that the main Leave campaigns during the referendum (and before that, continual campaigning by UKIP and by much of the tabloid press) repeatedly focused on stirring up fear/hatred of foreigners, as well as using provocative language such as describing people as 'enemies' or using words connected with treason etc.

 

[edwin_m]

At least, if the money had not been spent in the UK, by a government of any persuasion (why single out tories), then UK personal and/or business taxpayers would have benefited from reduced taxation.

You didn't quote the rest of my post where I pointed out that leaving the EU would make our economy smaller so government would have to tax more or cut spending.

My views are that remain and leave are as bad as each other , not everyone who voted leave is uneducated, racist etc. When indeed it’s equal in the remain side.

Studies have shown that less educated people were more likely to vote for Leave. I don't personally blame them for that, as recent policies of Westminster governments (particularly since 2010 but before that as well) widened the gap in society and increased the number feeling left behind. The Brexit elite and their allies in the press took advantage of that with a campaign that played on general disenchantment and aimed to place the blame on the EU when in fact most of it belongs elsewhere. It's not the duty of every citizen to do an intellectual analysis of rival campaigns but for democracy to work, those running those campaigns should at least present an alternative they believe is workable. The Leave campaign never stood up to any sort of serious analysis but Remain failed to get that message home. And since I've been following this thread in the last month or so I haven't seen a single credible argument in favour of Leave.

One of the things the Brexit campaign chose to do was to blame immigration for many of the UK's problems. As racists generally oppose immigration, it's no surprise that they overwhelmingly supported Leave.

 

[edwin_m]

a lot of the problems is the uncertainty and MP’s all in fighting instead of getting on with it

Most MPs are actually reasonable people who don't want to be in this position. If there had been a parliamentary vote on the issue with no referendum and no bullying by Leave supporters then most of them would have voted for Remain.

If you have the responsibility to think things through and make the decision the reasons for leaving just don't make sense. The real villains here are those in positions of influence who support Brexit despite having the intellects and education to know better. It's difficult to explain that without inferring self-interest or some other form of malevolance.

The reason for all the fighting is that the MPs are trying to respect the result of the referendum despite the huge misgivings most of them have. My hope is that whatever solution is least bad will be put to a public vote to give an opportunity to look again with better information on both choices. If the campaign is honest and choice is still to then I for one wil feel obliged to accept it, unlike the thoroughly misguided result of 2016.