EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[nidave]

You have to admit that comparing a weekday march with a weekend march is a little different...

Making excuses. It's always the fault of something isn't it when they fail at what they are trying to do....The eu, remainers, the government, the day of the week

They should have planned things better and done a Saturday. An analogy for the brexit planning eh?

 

[nidave]

Honda is shutting its plant for many reasons ! The U.K. motoring manufacturing has been declining for years , all of it moving into the Eu

More excuses. What about the other plants closing or are you going to make excuses for that as well.

 

[yorkie]

Honda is shutting its plant for many reasons ! The U.K. motoring manufacturing has been declining for years , all of it moving into the Eu

Are you prepared to admit what one of those reasons might be?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45558424

Ian Howells told the BBC that quitting the bloc without an agreement would affect the carmaker's competitiveness in Europe.

A host of carmakers in Britain, including Nissan and Jaguar, have warned a bad or no Brexit deal would be damaging for the UK car industry.

 

[Gooner18]

More excuses. What about the other plants closing or are you going to make excuses for that as well.

Excuses ? It’s fact my friend. Just like I fully expect Vauxhall’s plant to close in Liverpool when the current Astra run stops.

 

[Gooner18]

Are you prepared to admit what one of those reasons might be?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45558424

Of course , hence why I put its pulling it for many reasons , they probably would of pulled out either due to them wanting to consolidate, diesels in rapid decline etc. Obviously I can’t say that for certain , but I think it’s more likely than not

 

[DynamicSpirit]

People are actually burning EU flags in Westminster whilst smiling! Actually burning flags of our biggest trading partner in the heart of our democracy. What has come of this country. Hate is rife. Have people simply forgotten what happened between 1914-1945 in Europe?

That is utterly appalling. Imagine what the reaction would be if (hypothetically) some Remainers burned Union Jacks. There would (rightly) be outrage. But (at least some) Brexiters apparently see nothing wrong with publicly doing the same thing to a flag that many other people care about.

And not only that, Nigel Farage in his speech declared 'Because I sense, being in Westminster, that we are in enemy territory'. Enemies? The MPs? 'Enemies' is not normal language in a democracy to describe human beings who disagree with you. It's the kind of language that dictators and demagogues use when they want to dehumanise their opponents. That both that and the flag-burning have passed by with basically no comment really shows up how much how both UKIP and the Brexit campaign has damaged democracy and tolerance over the last few years.

I think you're right about the hatred. Unfortunately, to my mind this confirms the basic issue with Brexit. While I'm sure this isn't true of all Brexiters, at its heart the main Brexit campaign has always been based on intolerance. Intolerance of foreigners. Intolerance of other people's ways of life. Intolerance of change. To my mind, that flag-burning illustrates perfectly why Brexit is such a bad idea. Aside from all the bad economic effects and the harm that Brexit will do to so many people's lives, if Brexit goes ahead, it will represent an absolute surrender to the kind of intolerance that thinks it's OK to burn other people's flags and to describe people who disagree with you as 'the enemy'.

 

[nidave]

Excuses ? It’s fact my friend. Just like I fully expect Vauxhall’s plant to close in Liverpool when the current Astra run stops.

So nothing at all to do with leaving the EU... Any thing else but brexit eh. Hahaha

In other news..
The brexit marchers abusing police
https://twitter.com/d_vidnguyen/status/1111718883940028417?s=19

From the met:
As of 21:00hrs five arrests have been made at the demonstrations in central #London today: x2 for assault, x1 drunk & disorderly, x1 for assaulting a
police officer & x1 male arrested after being identified as wanted for an
offence in Herts. All are in custody.


No one arrested on the remain March.... Funny that.

 

[nidave]

Of course , hence why I put its pulling it for many reasons , they probably would of pulled out either due to them wanting to consolidate, diesels in rapid decline etc. Obviously I can’t say that for certain , but I think it’s more likely than not

Hahahaha

You calling Patrick Minford (the leave econominist) a liar when he said about brexit when Giving evidence to the Foreign Affairs Select Committee in 2012

“It is perfectly true that if you remove protection of the sort that has been given particularly to the car industry and other manufacturing industries inside the protective wall, you will have a change in the situation facing that industry, and you are going to have to run it down.

“It will be in your interests to do it, just as in the same way we ran down the coal and steel industries. These things happen as evolution takes place in your economy.”

Is diseal also the reason Dyson pulled out of the UK... Is diseal also the reason trillions of £ in assets have been moved from the UK???

 

[Gooner18]

So nothing at all to do with leaving the EU... Any thing else but brexit eh. Hahaha

In other news..
The brexit marchers abusing police
https://twitter.com/d_vidnguyen/status/1111718883940028417?s=19

From the met:
As of 21:00hrs five arrests have been made at the demonstrations in central #London today: x2 for assault, x1 drunk & disorderly, x1 for assaulting a
police officer & x1 male arrested after being identified as wanted for an
offence in Herts. All are in custody.


No one arrested on the remain March.... Funny that.

Indeed I suspect the reason the Vauxhall plant will shut has nothing to do with leaving the EU , but I guess you perhaps know better?

As for the arrests clearly that’s disgusting , especially the assault ones, although I fail to see its relevance? Unless you’re suggesting something?

 

[zuriblue]

So nothing at all to do with leaving the EU... Any thing else but brexit eh. Hahaha

In other news..
The brexit marchers abusing police
https://twitter.com/d_vidnguyen/status/1111718883940028417?s=19

From the met:
As of 21:00hrs five arrests have been made at the demonstrations in central #London today: x2 for assault, x1 drunk & disorderly, x1 for assaulting a
police officer & x1 male arrested after being identified as wanted for an
offence in Herts. All are in custody.


No one arrested on the remain March.... Funny that.

Plus apparently several more arrests when Tiny Tommy Robinson’s goon squad kicked off in front of Downing Street and the riot squad had to be called in.

 

[Gooner18]

Plus apparently several more arrests when Tiny Tommy Robinson’s goon squad kicked off in front of Downing Street and the riot squad had to be called in.

Again disgusting, I have no time for that man.

 

[nidave]

Indeed I suspect the reason the Vauxhall plant will shut has nothing to do with leaving the EU , but I guess you perhaps know better?

As for the arrests clearly that’s disgusting , especially the assault ones, although I fail to see its relevance? Unless you’re suggesting something?

The timing is just a pure coincidence.. Funny the mental gymnastics some people have.

You ignoring the people who said it would happen because of brexit including Paul manford of leave and the auto industry publications. Nope. Noting at all to do with brexit. Hahahaha

 

[Gooner18]

The timing is just a pure coincidence.. Funny the mental gymnastics some people have.

You ignoring the people who said it would happen because of brexit including Paul manford of leave and the auto industry publications. Nope. Noting at all to do with brexit. Hahahaha

Have you got any facts regarding the Vauxhall plant will be pulled due to brexit?
It’s by no means certain it will shut , however I think it will go based on what I know and it’s. Nothing to do with leaving the EU.
As I said the motor industry, particularly building cars has struggled for 30-40 years in the U.K. , most of the manufacturing has moved to the EU

 

[Struner]

[...]
As I said the motor industry, particularly building cars has struggled for 30-40 years in the U.K. , most of the manufacturing has moved to the EU

Surely you mean "other parts of the EU"?
Some people liked British cars because of their design, but wouldn't buy them because the lack of proper workmanship

 

[Gooner18]

Surely you mean "other parts of the EU"?
Some people liked British cars because of their design, but wouldn't buy them because the lack of proper workmanship

Sorry , bad choice of wording by me , indeed other parts of the EU.
I totally agree with you , some of it not most of the decline is down to us shooting ourselves in the foot, be it with poor workmanship/reliability, very poor productivity, maybe all started with the massive strikes in the 70’s and of course other reasons also it just being cheaper , more cost effective moving it to other parts of the EU

 

[Struner]

Sorry , bad choice of wording by me , indeed other parts of the EU.
I totally agree with you , some of it not most of the decline is down to us shooting ourselves in the foot, be it with poor workmanship/reliability, very poor productivity, maybe all started with the massive strikes in the 70’s and of course other reasons also it just being cheaper , more cost effective moving it to other parts of the EU

Just let us not be dragged down into a discussion about the qualities +/- of motors on a Rail forum

 

[Gooner18]

Ha ha , it was just making a point, that not everything is due to brexit, yes some firms will leave , some firms will come.
I still believe my point is valid that leave means leave , if we stay in any form of a union where we are bound by rules made up in a body where we have no say , then we may as well stay in a have our veto vote to protect our interests

 

[edwin_m]

Interesting that you should mention that. Every time there is mention of a new referendum, or revoking A50, there is a chorus of leavers warning (or is it making veiled threats) of dark forces rising up, riots etc.. So is this the leavers' own 'project fear' or just a desperate attempt to give the impression that going against their 'democratic entitlement' would be a bad move for all?
As you say, everybody seems to be scared of the leavers which given their angry uncompromising behaviour, isn't surprising, but if there is a messy departure or even an unnecessarily jingoistic flavour of how a deal is handled, the generally tolerant remainers may decide to push back. They are after all the 'privileged elite', so with their riches, they are in a far better position to ride out the inevitable chaos and shortages.

Up to a point, remainers are on average more affluent so leavers will on average suffer worse from the effects of Brexit.

But the people who ran the Leave campaign are some of the most affluent and privileged of all, and will suffer very little from what they have caused.

 

[edwin_m]

Ha ha , it was just making a point, that not everything is due to brexit, yes some firms will leave , some firms will come.
I still believe my point is valid that leave means leave , if we stay in any form of a union where we are bound by rules made up in a body where we have no say , then we may as well stay in a have our veto vote to protect our interests

Right then, let's stay in and keep the veto.

 

[507021]

Right then, let's stay in and keep the veto.

I think that's an excellent idea.

 

[dgl]

I think that's an excellent idea.

agreed

 

[Senex]

Right then, let's stay in and keep the veto.

No, let's leave but sign up to the single market and the customs union and become rule-takers — then we can spend the next forty years moaning about how badly done-to we are.

 

[yorkie]

...I still believe my point is valid that leave means leave...

But do you not agree that your definition of "leave" does not mean the same definition as others?

No, let's leave but sign up to the single market and the customs union...

@Gooner18 I do not understand how you can claim there is one single definition of "leave" that all who voted leave were/are united on, as clearly that is not the case!

 

[Giugiaro]

Just let us not be dragged down into a discussion about the qualities +/- of motors on a Rail forum

What's the issue? The English Electric CSVT's are incredibly reliable, above many other engines powering locos and units in Portugal. If it isn't related to the British engineering of those engines, the only thing keeping that reliability record is the Portuguese maintenance done on the EE's. But maintenance can't keep 50 year old engines running this well!

 

[nidave]

No, let's leave but sign up to the single market and the customs union and become rule-takers — then we can spend the next forty years moaning about how badly done-to we are.

Its irrelevant as even if we leave we will have to be rule takers from places like the USA Cin order to secure a trade deal with them. They have specifically said we must lower food standards and environmental standards to get a deal with them. So the question is do you prefer the eu standards (no chlorinated chicken better animal welfare etc) or the USA rules.

The eu is big enough to demand the USA do what it wants to secure a deal.
Am paraphrasing... But the US does not like eu as "they stand up to us"
WTO means there are even more rules to follow than eu rules and they are very strict about you following them.

We have a great deal at the moment while in the eu and seem prepared to throw it away only to have to follow more rules for less benifit.

 

[404250]

Slightly off topic, but seeing as many seem obsessed by the economic side of Brexit it's worth a mention. The UK has had good economic growth for a long time (except the couple of banking crisis years 10yrs ago). This sounds good on paper, but has resulted in the gap widening between rich and poor, and poverty in the UK increasing despite unemployment falling.

Staying in the EU may be better for economic growth, but is this such a great thing? The leave campaign also talks of economic benefits such as new trade deals which will stimulate growth.

Are there not other aspects to Brexit that deserve talking about as well as economic growth and car production jobs?

 

[dgl]

The thing about staying in the EU is they generally fund projects in less well off areas and as such hep support a lot of places that really need the money, when we leave these places will suddenly have their funding cut off as do you really think that the conservatives care about the poorer areas? The EU does.
It's especially sad that some places that voted to leave had massive signs up showing work that was primarily EU funded.

And as has been said unemployment has decreased primarily because of the gig economy and zero hours contracts.
When a company can employ more people but on less hours employment stops paying. Two people working 16 hours a week rather than one working 32 hours might mean more employment in general but do each of those employees actually earn enough to live on?, esp. if the government does not help out.

 

[NoMorePacers]

The thing about staying in the EU is they generally fund projects in less well off areas and as such hep support a lot of places that really need the money, when we leave these places will suddenly have their funding cut off as do you really think that the conservatives care about the poorer areas? The EU does.
It's especially sad that some places that voted to leave had massive signs up showing work that was primarily EU funded.

And as has been said unemployment has decreased primarily because of the gig economy and zero hours contracts.
When a company can employ more people but on less hours employment stops paying. Two people working 16 hours a week rather than one working 32 hours might mean more employment in general but do each of those employees actually earn enough to live on?, esp. if the government does not help out.

Turkeys voting for Christmas.

 

[edwin_m]

Slightly off topic, but seeing as many seem obsessed by the economic side of Brexit it's worth a mention. The UK has had good economic growth for a long time (except the couple of banking crisis years 10yrs ago). This sounds good on paper, but has resulted in the gap widening between rich and poor, and poverty in the UK increasing despite unemployment falling.

Staying in the EU may be better for economic growth, but is this such a great thing? The leave campaign also talks of economic benefits such as new trade deals which will stimulate growth.

Are there not other aspects to Brexit that deserve talking about as well as economic growth and car production jobs?

The actions or inactions of the Westminster government have far more influence on economics than the EU does, especially for a country outside the eurozone. The EU accommodates countries ranging from the relatively neoliberal like the UK through to the Scandinavian social democratic model, so EU membership does not in itself influence where on that spectrum a particular country chooses to sit. The EU didn't force us to adopt austerity, which has had far more impact on the UK than any EU policy and probably caused many people to vote for Brexit as a protest against it.

The benefit of new trade deals outside the EU is tiny. The costs of trading in both goods and services increase with distance, so to trade in any more than niche markets we would have to become a low-regulation low-cost economy. This would really hurt living standards and quality of life for all but an elite few (and China would still do it much better). Trump saying the UK will get a really good trade deal is like what the spider said to the fly - it will be really good for the USA but very much on their terms.

The non-economic benefits of the EU include making it easier to travel to new places, not to mention making it inconceivable that the European powers would go to war with each other as they repeatedly did for centuries before.

 

[edwin_m]

Turkeys voting for Christmas.

Would those be chlorinated turkeys?