EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[507021]

it's damnable bare faced cheek

No it isn't, it is their right.

 

[Giugiaro]

What is the eventual aim? ..for everyone to be on Berlin time?
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...ing-time-from-2021/ar-BBVfl9w?ocid=spartanntp
This is something that should be down to individual countries to decide - the wrench from the EU will be painful but it is the only alternative to the dictatorship of bureaucracy.

I would advise discussing this on a separate thread.
For now, let me say three things:
One, I voted in favour of this on the online poll due to personal experiences. I'll explain if we continue in a proper thread.
Second, the law still has to pass through the EU Council, i.o.w. all national governments of the EU states, and given how unpopular it is between those governments and the respective heads of state, the bill will probably be rejected.
Three, if it passes, it's up to each individual country to decide which timezone they want to fall into. There are talks that Spain will adopt the same timezone that the UK and Portugal use since Greenwich Mean Time is closer to the Spanish mean solar time.

 

[Jonny]

What is the eventual aim ? ..for everyone to be on Berlin time ?
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/ukne...ing-time-from-2021/ar-BBVfl9w?ocid=spartanntp


This is something that should be down to individual countries to decide - the wrench from the EU will be painful but it is the only alternative to the dictatorship of bureaucracy.

I agree. Especially as the southeast seems to want permanent summer time; have you ever tried getting up at 7am in winter in the North East of England?

Oh, and I presume that Scotland would be even worse.

Also, it is one more reason why Britain needs to get out. Right out.

 

[Giugiaro]

Concerning the votes of expats, it's understandable that they should keep their right to vote on their country of origin if they still aren't allowed to vote on their current residency. I know for a fact that, whenever the time comes for me to move to Japan, it'll take a very long time before I get the chance to participate in Japanese politics. Until then, I participate in my own country's politics since it still technically is my permanent residency, and I may have to return to it if the Japanese government so desires.

If one has fixated residency in another country, pays taxes and has the right to vote there, it's one's moral obligation to abandon his/her right to vote on his/her country of origin.

At least that would be my way of thinking, but we can't forget that social security and pensions still attach an expat to his/her country of origin. There's also the interesting fact that you may be obligated to pay taxes on BOTH sides for a few years, or even forever... So...

 

[Jonny]

Another pitfall of democracy is when elected representatives are faithless - saying that they will do one thing and yet doing another - as is happening with the way in which Parliament is going against the government.

 

[Jonny]

Concerning the votes of expats, it's understandable that they should keep their right to vote on their country of origin if they still aren't allowed to vote on their current residency. I know for a fact that, whenever the time comes for me to move to Japan, it'll take a very long time before I get the chance to participate in Japanese politics. Until then, I participate in my own country's politics since it still technically is my permanent residency, and I may have to return to it if the Japanese government so desires.

If one has fixated residency in another country, pays taxes and has the right to vote there, it's one's moral obligation to abandon his/her right to vote on his/her country of origin.

At least that would be my way of thinking, but we can't forget that social security and pensions still attach an expat to his/her country of origin. There's also the interesting fact that you may be obligated to pay taxes on BOTH sides for a few years, or even forever... So...

It depends; if the period of delay for loss of origin country voting rights is longer than that required to apply successfully for citizenship of the new country it is perfectly reasonable because they will always be eligible to vote in at least one country (or should be if they receive citizenship). The problem is that the origin country time-out is a blunt instrument as it tends to be the same period no matter which country one moves to, as the destination country may never allow citizenship. In that regard, the system is flawed.

 

[Jonny]

On a slightly different angle,

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...3-11-meme-ban-voss-results-vote-a8840186.html
EU PASSES 'MEME BAN' COPYRIGHT RULES THAT COULD CHANGE THE WAY THE INTERNET WORKS
The European Union has passed controversial copyright rules that campaigners claim could change the way the internet works.

The suite of reforms include rules that could force internet companies to ban memes and to stop them showing links in the way they do today.

Supporters claim the rules are required to ensure that music companies and news outlets are properly paid for the content that technology companies distribute. But opponents, who assembled in force, allied with those tech firms to argue that it could change the way the internet works and destroy some of its fundamental principles.


The vote – which many had suggested in advance could have been close – passed the rules with 348 votes in favour and 274 against. There were 36 abstentions.

EU member states will have two years to implement the reforms, although it is not clear what it would mean for the UK in the face of Brexit uncertainty.



The most controversial part of the rules had been known as Article 13, and force internet companies to scan content that is uploaded to them in case it might be in violation of copyright. That part has been referred to as a "meme ban", because companies could ban internet jokes that rely on screengrabs from TV shows, for instance.

Tech companies have vociferously argued against those rules. YouTube said, for instance, that it could be forced to stop millions of people from uploading videos at all.


The new regulations don't actually force tech companies to introduce such filters or to ban Europeans from uploading or engaging with content. But critics say that they are so loosely written that companies will be forced to be very strict if they wish to avoid fines.

(article continues)

One solution - out of the EU, right out. Not only that, but an uncoupled Britain would have the impetus to make it near-on impossible to enforce.

 

[404250]

these indicative votes today are non binding. Should these MPs get some idea what the public think in their constituencies before placing their votes and forcing their own opinion. I'm not talking about anything difficult like a referendum but it would be quick and cheap to run a poll with the 7 options MPs are voting on. Do they have any idea what the public think about customs union Vs May's deal for example?

 

[EM2]

Another pitfall of democracy is when elected representatives are faithless - saying that they will do one thing and yet doing another - as is happening with the way in which Parliament is going against the government.

So what system do you prefer to democracy?

 

[Bantamzen]

these indicative votes today are non binding. Should these MPs get some idea what the public think in their constituencies before placing their votes and forcing their own opinion. I'm not talking about anything difficult like a referendum but it would be quick and cheap to run a poll with the 7 options MPs are voting on. Do they have any idea what the public think about customs union Vs May's deal for example?

To do this you would have to open up a full public debate on the options, otherwise you simply risk making the same mistakes that were made at the time of the referendum, i.e. people voting without really understanding the consequences. At this point in the proceedings there simply isn't time, even if the Friday deadline legislation is amended we technically have only another couple of weeks if May's deal isn't accepted. I'm afraid this is where we have to leave the MPs to it, my hope would be that they would re-visit the whole deal & move to something more closely aligned with an EEA deal which hopefully would convince the EU to extend their deadline to allow the full negotiation of this to take place (we would probably have to agree to take place in the MEP elections even if they might only be in post for a handful of months).

Of course the government might still reject this & try for the third reading of May's deal, but this is highly risky although the hard core leavers in the house do seem to be relenting somewhat so it could be a lot closer a result. Fun times.....

 

[dgl]

So what system do you prefer to democracy?

Quite clearly it's a dictatorship with only one group of views being correct and damn the damage it does or the old chestnut of blaming one group people for all the problems that Britain has that not only aren't the problem but are actually a boon to the country in increased tax receipts. This has happened many times in history and it NEVER turns out well (a bunker and a couple of suicide pills comes to mind as an example).

It seems to be that despite all we now know it still seems that simple things like, jobs, medicines and food are a lot less important than leaving and the hardship that comes as a result of leaving is fine because "leaving is the patriotic thing to do" and that anyone who thinks any different should be taken to the tower and hung as a traitor.

I sincerely hope that there is still a future for Britain as I would not like it to go down the pan anymore than it is at the moment but currently I can't see a way out whilst maniac Brexiteers seem to be running the shop and May seems to be constantly pandering to them.

And as for article 13, if you truly understood it you would realise it is not a "meme law" but more a protection of copyright and pushing the burden of upholding copyright to the sites that make so much money disobeying copyright law yet pay actual copyright holders so little. It is not fair that if I were to, for example, download a song illegally I would get rightly punished if caught but I could upload the same song to youtube with relative impunity.

 

[krus_aragon]

Why, is it UK only? Thought Brexiters told us it was signed by 19,263,572 Russian spam bots? But if he genuinely can't, then fair enough, but that also prevents ex-pats signing.

The petition-signing page says:

Only British citizens or UK residents have the right to sign
[ ] I am a British citizen or UK resident

So a British citizen overseas can sign it.

 

[EM2]

I'm not going to link to the Daily Mail, but if you are so minded to look at their website, you will find an article titled:
'JACOB REES-MOGG: I apologise for changing my mind. But this is why I am ready to back Mrs May.'

 

[Groningen]

Remember all those people that life in poverty and voted for Brexit, because they thought that it would improve their life. 15 million UK citizens of which 5 million children life below the poverty level. Well finally in a few weeks that will hopefully improve for them.

 

[Senex]

It seems to be that despite all we now know it still seems that simple things like, jobs, medicines and food are a lot less important than leaving and the hardship that comes as a result of leaving is fine because "leaving is the patriotic thing to do" and that anyone who thinks any different should be taken to the tower and hung as a traitor.

I sincerely hope that there is still a future for Britain as I would not like it to go down the pan anymore than it is at the moment but currently I can't see a way out whilst maniac Brexiteers seem to be running the shop and May seems to be constantly pandering to them.

An excellent summary of the current position. As for May, she seems to be in the same position as quite a few "leaders" in history — if you're going down, then you might as well make sure your country goes down with you.

 

[Bantamzen]

I'm not going to link to the Daily Mail, but if you are so minded to look at their website, you will find an article titled:
'JACOB REES-MOGG: I apologise for changing my mind. But this is why I am ready to back Mrs May.'

Oh for <insert expletive here> sake....

So perhaps May's deal, the deal that this idiot has been opposing all along, will get through after all & we will leave in June, although the DUP might still be the sticking point. But this just simply examples how utterly pathetically the leave campaign* has been run. Screeching like banshees to get exactly what they want without actually ever agreeing what that was, then at 11:59:59 suddenly U-turn just so that they can get some of what they want. Perhaps if they hadn't drawn so many red lines into the sand in the first place this would have been settled months ago. Still they might be back on course to be able to wave those blue passports around when they head for the EU on their holidays.

BTW I wouldn't normally do this, but I would suggest reading said Mail article for some of the comments alone. They are even more bizarre than the usual standard of Mail comments section. I particularly enjoyed the poster demanding that we boycott all EU goods! Good luck with that one!

(* Just for clarity I also think the remain campaign was run terribly)

 

[dgl]

JRM probably wants to go for the deal now as if the deal does not get passed, Theresa May is forced to go and a brexiteer becomes PM then the like of JRM would actually have to formulate a plan themselves, something that I think is well beyond their negotiating powers (when you are used to getting your way in life, simply saying to the EU you will do what we say doesn't work!) and would the EU even listen to a group of people who seem to hate them so much?

 

[LOL The Irony]

So are are you saying that you think UK citizens living abroad should not be entitled to vote?

Mutant Lemming answered that for me. I'll add one thing however. When my dad was yet to become a citizen, he didn't fly off to his homeland, vote and fly back.

 

[Senex]

JRM probably wants to go for the deal now as if the deal does not get passed, Theresa May is forced to go and a brexiteer becomes PM then the like of JRM would actually have to formulate a plan themselves, something that I think is well beyond their negotiating powers (when you are used to getting your way in life, simply saying to the EU you will do what we say doesn't work!) and would the EU even listen to a group of people who seem to hate them so much?

And if, with ERG support on condition that May goes, the deal is passed, they will then hope to get an arch-Brexiteer as PM to be in charge of the subsequent negotiations on the long-term trade arrangements. You can certainly see a rationale for this outrageous last-minute total switch on supporting "the deal".

 

[AlterEgo]

If you don't live in a country, you shouldn't control it's government.

But that isn’t the law, is it?

 

[Bantamzen]

JRM probably wants to go for the deal now as if the deal does not get passed, Theresa May is forced to go and a brexiteer becomes PM then the like of JRM would actually have to formulate a plan themselves, something that I think is well beyond their negotiating powers (when you are used to getting your way in life, simply saying to the EU you will do what we say doesn't work!) and would the EU even listen to a group of people who seem to hate them so much?

True this, very true indeed! Sadly this is another facet of project leave that has rankled with me, whenever important Brexit milestones have been reached & work has to be done, the senior Brexiteers suddenly manage to disappear themselves. Straight after the referendum, Brexit Cheerleader In Chief Nigel Farage exited stage left to go to America, & Johnson, Gove, Rees-Tosser-Mogg et al have constantly ducked responsibility. Sadly if May is forced to walk the plank to get her deal through, the plank Gove might be back in contention for PM, and given his ability to do one when the going gets tough I fear for us in this scenario.

What an utter shambles this country is rapidly becoming.

 

[dgl]

Although if JRM did become PM it might finally show people in the country what a POS he is and how he is actually ruining the country with his beliefs. The removal of most if not all workers rights would be one of his first plans.

 

[Senex]

Although if JRM did become PM it might finally show people in the country what a POS he is and how he is actually ruining the country with his beliefs. The removal of most if not all workers rights would be one of his first plans.

If he did, how much more damage could he do before there was any chance of getting rid of him?

 

[HH]

As I've been saying all along, "We're doomed; doomed I tell you". The only question is whether we're simply doomed, or right royally doomed.

Let me add that internal government projections suggest that a "no deal" Brexit would see a recession as bad as that of 2008/09, but without the recovery.

 

[DarloRich]

I agree. Especially as the southeast seems to want permanent summer time; have you ever tried getting up at 7am in winter in the North East of England?

Oh, and I presume that Scotland would be even worse.

Also, it is one more reason why Britain needs to get out. Right out.

One solution - out of the EU, right out. Not only that, but an uncoupled Britain would have the impetus to make it near-on impossible to enforce.

he has got a new slogan! The content of these and the majority of other posits from this poster are detached from any semblance of reality or rationality. I suspect this may be a sophisticated parody account.

 

[Howardh]

Let me get this right, anyone from the UK living abroad can't have a vote? So that means our armed services living and working abroad short or long-term can't have a vote? Anyone from the UK volunteering to teach or nurse in deprived areas can't have a vote? Then when they return the political map is changed and they haven't had a say?

 

[edwin_m]

No doubt ignored on 1st April. Hopefully by then we will be heading towards a much softer Brexit, but in the meantime it looks like the ERG are capitulating over Mays deal. As long as she resigns allowing them to take over. Isn't democracy wonderful? Hopefully the remaining Tory MP s will elect a moderate like they did with Major. Rudd?

The MPs whittle the list down to two and it then goes to the membership. So even if a centrist is in the final two they are most unlikely to win.

Don't bother, they have now officially responded.

Still valid to sign it. The response and the debate are largely meaningless and the most important thing about the petition is the total number.

Another pitfall of democracy is when elected representatives are faithless - saying that they will do one thing and yet doing another - as is happening with the way in which Parliament is going against the government.

A bit like Jacob changing is mind to back the deal?

 

[DarloRich]

Don't bother, they have now officially responded.

Why? There was never going to be a debate or a change of direction. It is all about registering a protest at how things are being handled and the direction of travel. It is still perfectly valid to sign.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Too damned right they SHOULDN'T as should anyone not living in a particular place - you're living the life of Riley (other surnames may be applicable) in some far flung land and expect to have a say and influence in a place you don't even live ? It's damnable bare faced cheek - you should vote for and in the place you reside and that place alone. You should not be able to influence a place where you don't even live.

I'll be honest, I would be inclined to agree - my Polish housemate cannot vote in a general election but in my view has more entitlement to vote morally than a British person who has retired to Spain and has no plan to return. (Legal) residency is a better criterion than citizenship, really.

 

[Bantamzen]

Are the DUP about to scupper May's deal? Taken from the live feed covering the day's events from both Brussels & Westminster on the BBC's page at 09:37:

DUP MEP Dianne Dodds says: "The DUP wants to leave in an orderly fashion but this deal will destroy the constitutional integrity of the United Kingdom.

"It is not a price we are willing to pay," she says.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-parliaments-47696409