EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Puffing Devil]

For starters the 5% on vat on heating which couldn't be scraped back in 1997.

Secondly. I dont beleive their listern to people or like being in the wrong.

You seriously think any UK government is gonna drop that?? Do us a favour....in fact I would wager the Tories will gradually put it up like insurance and airline tax. They will call it "green".

That VAT goes to the UK government, not the EU. We may not like the idea of the tax, though we can reduce the effect by decreasing taxes in other areas or by increasing benefits.

 

[WelshBluebird]

The big question we have to ask is what is good about the EU? What has the EU ever done for us? Whenever i ask anybody the only thing they can say is the freedom of movement and the right to easily work or study or live in any EU/EFTA/EEA country without a visa or permit! But nobody seems to be able to say anything else positive! So are people really wanting to remain in the EU just for that one reason?

Firstly, that reason is a massive one because of all the implications it has. Holidays, working abroad temporarily (a pretty big one if your company has multiple offices around Europe), moving abroad, studying abroad (either short term or longer term), etc etc. You cannot just say that is "just one reason". Anyone who has gone on holiday within the EU over the last 10-30 years plus has directly benefited from the EU for crying out loud!

Secondly, there are of course others, too many to list here. But to post just a couple:

• EU money spent in areas that do not receive attention by Westminster. Yes sure, you can claim why can't we just spend the money ourselves without it having to go via the EU, but the reality is Westminster would not in the areas of the country we are talking about.
• Harmonisation of standards and regulations leading to much easier trading for goods and services.
• The various workers rights regulations that are in place.
• Removal of mobile roaming chargers.
• And that massive list that Howardh has posted!

Have people actually thought about all the negative things about the EU?

Care to actually share one? (not that I don't think there are any, but in my experience when questioned, leavers actually struggle to point them out and explain their impacts and why they are negatives!).

 

[Aictos]

Jut a few items;

1. Why did we actually enter the European Union Customs Union in the first place when we were members of the European Free Trade Association indeed we were a founding member.

2. People moan about the Brexit referendum about the UK leaving the EU but did the UK population actually get asked in the first place if they WANTED to join the EU?

3. The only reason why the European Communities Act 1972 (UK) was passed in the first place and why we joined was because of the UK Parliament riding roughshod over the UK population by a vote of 356-244.

Just remember one thing, the UK general public never got a referendum to join the EU yes they got one after 2 years to stay or to leave the EU but the point is something as big as that should have been put to the vote first.

Oh and some light hearted comedy but while we were members of the EU and indeed because the UK Govt is so screwed up with May's Conservatives, Corbyn being unelectable indeed I be surprised if he made PM and the LD being a minority party, shouldn't we change our national anthem to Puppet on a String?

 

[YorkshireBear]

The big question we have to ask is what is good about the EU? What has the EU ever done for us? Whenever i ask anybody the only thing they can say is the freedom of movement and the right to easily work or study or live in any EU/EFTA/EEA country without a visa or permit! But nobody seems to be able to say anything else positive! So are people really wanting to remain in the EU just for that one reason? Have people actually thought about all the negative things about the EU?

Yes some of us have. And we felt on balance they were not enough to negate the positives. A balance, I do not sit here claiming the EU is perfect.

Things I do not like is the the way farming subsidies are managed, I think it has led to wasted land and some poor environmental practises but with some major tweaking it could be good. The fisheries policy is definitely far from ideal, fortunately a UK political party leader joined the fisheries review committee, unfortunately he failed to turn up to almost all the meetings and refused to contribute, he still got paid though. I think the calls for an EU army need thinking through more, however, as part of a union there should never ever be a war within the EU and therefore why do we need our own armies. Having an EU army where say invasions are voted on with a bigger group would stop illegal wars such as Iraq from happening so easily and without punishment? I am a bit torn on this particular subject. It's response to the Migrant crisis was poor and not at all collaborative between states.

But I am happy with a lot of the legislation they have brought in, particularly around environmental standards and food standards. I like their support for rural projects, many transport projects in the UK have benefitted massively from them. So have lots of rural tourism economies. This money which you could argue we are just getting back money we pay in. Except that relies on whichever politicians are in power giving them the money, and there is absolutely ZERO guarantees that they will not just take the money away to pay for something else like tax breaks for their mates. Whereas the EU protects this money to enhance the prosperity of its member states in areas where its member states will not get involved. I enjoy the freedom to travel and explore and see other cultures. To visit Germany at short notice to learn about their On-Track-Machines and attitude to high output renewals without the faff of visas. To easily visit Germany on Holiday because I love their beer and food! I appreciate the bargaining power that being party of the EU gives us in trade deals to stop the bigger nations walking over us. I enjoy the concept of a union, working together to achieve a better world. I have been brought up with the belief that I should leave the world a better place than when I joined it, for ME that is what the EU represents a collective body aiming to improve prosperity of its members. I have also always believed in change from within again further reinforcing my strong remain feelings. Lastly, I no longer think we are as powerful a country as we make out and I fear for our position in the global world.

 

[YorkshireBear]

See this is what it boils down to neither side can deal with the other side options or opinions are. No matter what either side says people will dig in, because people feel like there values are being questioned and ripped apart. Its like like if you vote A, then People who Voted B are stupid no matter what and that goes both ways. Its not right, I have yet to complain about anyone that voted to stay in..

Here is the thing this prove unreversey there is a major problem in this country and no one can deal with the other side. I still do believe Brexit could be stop with mins.... until people sit down appect there are some major issues that need to be resolved this isn't going to happen.......................519 page prove that.


No one what to understand the other side.. Maybe I dont believe in everything I said just now, maybe I only believe in parts, maybe I was trying to highlight points about people's replies..... calling people names??? its not right and continues to prove why this mess willl never get fixed.

In post 15511 you referred to people who voted remain as remoaners, a word which very clearly has insulting tones, because it is constantly used in such a way to many people who voted remain. I completely agree with your point, nobody should be calling anyone stupid, nobody should be insulting the other side. But you cannot preach about it when 2 pages ago you did it yourself.

I think it would be unwise of anyone on here to ignore what you said about feeling left behind, I don't know your situation or (as you say whether you are being devils advocate) but if you do feel left behind. Try and understand who it is that has left you behind, is it the UK government or the EU? It may be the EU, as I said I don't know the specifics but just try and find out. Personally, from the research I have done I think it is successive UK governments that have let this country down. They failed to use their power, they failed to spend money in the right places and the consequences have come home to roost.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Yes some of us have. And we felt on balance they were not enough to negate the positives. A balance, I do not sit here claiming the EU is perfect.

Things I do not like is the the way farming subsidies are managed, I think it has led to wasted land and some poor environmental practises but with some major tweaking it could be good. The fisheries policy is definitely far from ideal, fortunately a UK political party leader joined the fisheries review committee, unfortunately he failed to turn up to almost all the meetings and refused to contribute, he still got paid though. I think the calls for an EU army need thinking through more, however, as part of a union there should never ever be a war within the EU and therefore why do we need our own armies. Having an EU army where say invasions are voted on with a bigger group would stop illegal wars such as Iraq from happening so easily and without punishment?

But I am happy with a lot of the legislation they have brought in, particularly around environmental standards and food standards. I like their support for rural projects, many transport projects in the UK have benefitted massively from them. So have lots of rural tourism economies. This money which you could argue we are just getting back money we pay in. Except that relies on whichever politicians are in power giving them the money, and there is absolutely ZERO guarantees that they will not just take the money away to pay for something else like tax breaks for their mates. Whereas the EU protects this money to enhance the prosperity of its member states in areas where its member states will not get involved. I enjoy the freedom to travel and explore and see other cultures. To visit Germany at short notice to learn about their On-Track-Machines and attitude to high output renewals without the faff of visas. To easily visit Germany on Holiday because I love their beer and food! I appreciate the bargaining power that being party of the EU gives us in trade deals to stop the bigger nations walking over us. I enjoy the concept of a union, working together to achieve a better world. I have been brought up with the belief that I should leave the world a better place than when I joined it, for ME that is what the EU represents a collective body aiming to improve prosperity of its members. I have also always believed in change from within again further reinforcing my strong remain feelings. Lastly, I no longer think we are as powerful a country as we make out and I fear for our position in the global world.

Excellent summary and I agree with the CAP and CFP comments. It's a balance, not perfect, but better to be in than out.

 

[mmh]

In post 15511 you referred to people who voted remain as remoaners, a word which very clearly has insulting tones, because it is constantly used in such a way to many people who voted remain. I completely agree with your point, nobody should be calling anyone stupid, nobody should be insulting the other side. But you cannot preach about it when 2 pages ago you did it yourself.

I think it would be unwise of anyone on here to ignore what you said about feeling left behind, I don't know your situation or (as you say whether you are being devils advocate) but if you do feel left behind. Try and understand who it is that has left you behind, is it the UK government or the EU? It may be the EU, as I said I don't know the specifics but just try and find out. Personally, from the research I have done I think it is successive UK governments that have let this country down. They failed to use their power, they failed to spend money in the right places and the consequences have come home to roost.

I believe that unfortunately the EU is fundamentally flawed, and it inherently necessitates some people being left behind. That can't be changed by choosing a different party at the next euro elections, however the UK government can be.

That's the basic reason my opinion hasn't and won't change. No amount of stories, realistic or not, about passports, visas, borders, Japanese 4x4s or other things I really don't care at all about will change that. Failing to grasp that is why Remain have failed to capitalise on the nearly three years they've had to persuade Leavers to change their mind. We, on the whole, don't give a stuff if we have to spend a tenner on a holiday visa, or if our posh neighbours's kid will have to to fill in an extra form to go to university in Belgium. It's meaningless trivia.

Had there been any sensible attempt to honestly answer people's concerns, and yes fears, then perhaps things might not be as polarised as they are (although I think the FBPE-type EU-at-all-cost faction would be just as impossible to swing as the most hard-line of UKIPpers). But sadly there hasn't.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I believe that unfortunately the EU is fundamentally flawed, and it inherently necessitates some people being left behind. That can't be changed by choosing a different party at the next euro elections, however the UK government can be.

Care to explain that? It is great claiming that, but you have provided no evidence.
Especially when you consider most people "left behind" as you put it are down to the UK government and its choices (especially relating to austerity) and have nothing at all to do with the EU.

That's the basic reason my opinion hasn't and won't change. No amount of stories, realistic or not, about passports, visas, borders, Japanese 4x4s or other things I really don't care at all about will change that. Failing to grasp that is why Remain have failed to capitalise on the nearly three years they've had to persuade Leavers to change their mind. We, on the whole, don't give a stuff if we have to spend a tenner on a holiday visa, or if our posh neighbours's kid will have to to fill in an extra form to go to university in Belgium. It's meaningless trivia.

Except that isn't just "meaningless trivia". It is people's jobs, people's ability to easily travel etc etc. Things that are certainly not limited to your "posh neighbours' kids" either as the people I know from proper South Wales mining town working class backgrounds have proven.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Actually, talking about my background in a working class town where the local vote was to leave, the only people my age who can claim to be left behind are those who could not be bothered with education or training, bummed about and did nothing and all of a sudden are in their mid to late 20's with nothing to show for it through their own fault and nobody else's. Of course I know that isn't the whole picture, and certainly doesn't address the various more complex issues, but certainly there is an element of what I have experienced too (but of course you can't say that because politically blaming some people for their own problems isn't acceptable, it must be the bad old EU's fault).

 

[mmh]

Care to explain that? It is great claiming that, but you have provided no evidence.
Especially when you consider most people "left behind" as you put it are down to the UK government and its choices (especially relating to austerity) and have nothing at all to do with the EU.



Except that isn't just "meaningless trivia". It is people's jobs, people's ability to easily travel etc etc. Things that are certainly not limited to your "posh neighbours' kids" either as the people I know from proper South Wales mining town working class backgrounds have proven.

See that's my point. You've just dismissed my view out of hand. You'll not change my opinion, just as I'll not change yours. If anything, people just use these disagreements to reinforce their existing viewpoint.

 

[WelshBluebird]

See that's my point. You've just dismissed my view out of hand. You'll not change my opinion, just as I'll not change yours. If anything, people just use these disagreements to reinforce their existing viewpoint.

I fail to see how asking someone to explain their view (as the issue they are raising has nothing to do with the EU and everything to do with the UK government) is "dismissing your view out of hand". Back in reality it is actually trying to get to the bottom of the issues, because believe it or not some of us who voted remain do actually care about the "left behinds" and do want to improve the lives of people in this country. If we can't ask what exactly you mean when talking about issues, then we can't get to the bottom of them can we?

As for the rest of my post, you were the one who was directly disregarding the things like people's jobs, the ability to easily travel etc, not me.

 

[Puffing Devil]

I believe that unfortunately the EU is fundamentally flawed, and it inherently necessitates some people being left behind. That can't be changed by choosing a different party at the next euro elections, however the UK government can be.

Please, tell me why you believe that the EU necessitates some people being left behind? Which people? How are they being left behind? I genuinely want to know.

 

[jellybaby]

Back on rail for a moment...

No-deal Brexit 'could disrupt London commuter trains'

Rail passengers commuting into London could have services disrupted by freight trains if a no-deal Brexit causes logjams at the Channel tunnel, it has emerged.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ges-and-passenger-delays-warns-train-operator

 

[Howardh]

Back on rail for a moment...
No-deal Brexit 'could disrupt London commuter trains'

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ges-and-passenger-delays-warns-train-operator

If we need (and I still think we won't) Visas - and probably certainly to fill in ETIAS forms, what will the procedure be @ St Pancras? As far as I know passports and tickets are checked this side of the channel, thus someone with the wrong docs couldn't travel. However, especially r/e visas, how long will it then take to process a queue, especially if a couple of pax's documents aren't in order? And what if the first country of stay is Holland or Germany yet we have to alight in Belgium and maybe even leave the station to catch a coach or something?

Perhaps a Brexit voter knows all the answers?

 

[swt class 450]

Ok then. Here are just some of the problems with the EU:

Firstly the EU is not democratic and has way too much control over countries. Just by being part of the EU (or EFTA or EEA as well) countries are forced to follow laws and rules and regulations whether they agree with them or not. The EU sets all these laws and rules and regulations and all of the members have to follow them whether they like it or not. So when the EU makes new laws and rules and regulations we have no choice but to follow them. The EU has taken away a lot of our freedom to make our own decisions for our country.

Secondly the EU is a club for capitalists. Their main aim is to help the rich wealthy elite. These are the people who benefit the most from the EU.

Look at the way that the EU is trying to force countries to privatise everything. Look at the railways for example and how all countries are now being forced to allow private train companies to operate. If you go back many years to before the EU existed there was just one state owned train company for every country which operated all trains (which worked a lot better). Now for example look at Germany which has over 50 private train companies (more than us). This has made railway services in Europe go downhill. The only reason for the EU doing this is because they only care about the wealthy elite and the private companies but not about the ordinary people.

And it is not just the railways. They are trying to mess with everything. They want privatisation everywhere.

Thirdly the EU is another typical warmongering organisation just like the, UK, USA, France, Israel, Saudi Arabia, etc etc etc, they have constantly supported wars and illegal invasions all over the world. Look at how they are now trying to create an EU military. Having an EU army wont improve anything because most of the EU countries are typical warmongering states. They don't care about peace at all despite what they say.

Recently the EU have given their support for the USA backed coup in Venezuela and given recognition to the far right terrorist unelected coup plotter Juan Guaido who declared himself president. The EU supported the illegal wars and invasions of Libya and Syria and have been party responsible (along with many others) for causing the mess in these countries. The EU supported the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq despite what they tell you. The EU has supported the "white helmets" in Syria who are actually members of Al Qaeda and ISIS in disguise. People don't realise what a mess the EU foreign policy has created all around the world.

The EU has constantly supported sanctions against peaceful countries like Iran and Venezuela who they don't like yet they continue to give their full support to places like the apartheid illegitimate state of Israel and the headchopping bone saw wielding state of Saudi Arabia who have some of the worst human rights in the world. The reality is that the foreign policy of the EU is no different to that of the USA.

So despite what they tell you the EU is a warmongering organisation that doesn't care about peace at all. They have done nothing to make the world more peaceful. The fact that they claim to support democracy and human rights makes me laugh so much.

Finally we never got a vote on joining the EU. Why should we be part of something that we never voted to join. The government joined the EU without even letting the people vote on that decision.

 

[Basher]

Ok then. Here are just some of the problems with the EU:

Firstly the EU is not democratic and has way too much control over countries. Just by being part of the EU (or EFTA or EEA as well) countries are forced to follow laws and rules and regulations whether they agree with them or not. The EU sets all these laws and rules and regulations and all of the members have to follow them whether they like it or not. So when the EU makes new laws and rules and regulations we have no choice but to follow them. The EU has taken away a lot of our freedom to make our own decisions for our country.

Secondly the EU is a club for capitalists. Their main aim is to help the rich wealthy elite. These are the people who benefit the most from the EU.

Look at the way that the EU is trying to force countries to privatise everything. Look at the railways for example and how all countries are now being forced to allow private train companies to operate. If you go back many years to before the EU existed there was just one state owned train company for every country which operated all trains (which worked a lot better). Now for example look at Germany which has over 50 private train companies (more than us). This has made railway services in Europe go downhill. The only reason for the EU doing this is because they only care about the wealthy elite and the private companies but not about the ordinary people.

And it is not just the railways. They are trying to mess with everything. They want privatisation everywhere.

Thirdly the EU is another typical warmongering organisation just like the, UK, USA, France, Israel, Saudi Arabia, etc etc etc, they have constantly supported wars and illegal invasions all over the world. Look at how they are now trying to create an EU military. Having an EU army wont improve anything because most of the EU countries are typical warmongering states. They don't care about peace at all despite what they say.

Recently the EU have given their support for the USA backed coup in Venezuela and given recognition to the far right terrorist unelected coup plotter Juan Guaido who declared himself president. The EU supported the illegal wars and invasions of Libya and Syria and have been party responsible (along with many others) for causing the mess in these countries. The EU supported the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq despite what they tell you. The EU has supported the "white helmets" in Syria who are actually members of Al Qaeda and ISIS in disguise. People don't realise what a mess the EU foreign policy has created all around the world.

The EU has constantly supported sanctions against peaceful countries like Iran and Venezuela who they don't like yet they continue to give their full support to places like the apartheid illegitimate state of Israel and the headchopping bone saw wielding state of Saudi Arabia who have some of the worst human rights in the world. The reality is that the foreign policy of the EU is no different to that of the USA.

So despite what they tell you the EU is a warmongering organisation that doesn't care about peace at all. They have done nothing to make the world more peaceful. The fact that they claim to support democracy and human rights makes me laugh so much.

Finally we never got a vote on joining the EU. Why should we be part of something that we never voted to join. The government joined the EU without even letting the people vote on that decision.

All true, well said. We joined a common market 50 years ago, not to be come a state of Europe. I voted NO then and have been anti Europe ever since.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Ok then. Here are just some of the problems with the EU:

Firstly the EU is not democratic and has way too much control over countries. Just by being part of the EU (or EFTA or EEA as well) countries are forced to follow laws and rules and regulations whether they agree with them or not. The EU sets all these laws and rules and regulations and all of the members have to follow them whether they like it or not. So when the EU makes new laws and rules and regulations we have no choice but to follow them. The EU has taken away a lot of our freedom to make our own decisions for our country.

Secondly the EU is a club for capitalists. Their main aim is to help the rich wealthy elite. These are the people who benefit the most from the EU.

Look at the way that the EU is trying to force countries to privatise everything. Look at the railways for example and how all countries are now being forced to allow private train companies to operate. If you go back many years to before the EU existed there was just one state owned train company for every country which operated all trains (which worked a lot better). Now for example look at Germany which has over 50 private train companies (more than us). This has made railway services in Europe go downhill. The only reason for the EU doing this is because they only care about the wealthy elite and the private companies but not about the ordinary people.

And it is not just the railways. They are trying to mess with everything. They want privatisation everywhere.

Thirdly the EU is another typical warmongering organisation just like the, UK, USA, France, Israel, Saudi Arabia, etc etc etc, they have constantly supported wars and illegal invasions all over the world. Look at how they are now trying to create an EU military. Having an EU army wont improve anything because most of the EU countries are typical warmongering states. They don't care about peace at all despite what they say.

Recently the EU have given their support for the USA backed coup in Venezuela and given recognition to the far right terrorist unelected coup plotter Juan Guaido who declared himself president. The EU supported the illegal wars and invasions of Libya and Syria and have been party responsible (along with many others) for causing the mess in these countries. The EU supported the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq despite what they tell you. The EU has supported the "white helmets" in Syria who are actually members of Al Qaeda and ISIS in disguise. People don't realise what a mess the EU foreign policy has created all around the world.

The EU has constantly supported sanctions against peaceful countries like Iran and Venezuela who they don't like yet they continue to give their full support to places like the apartheid illegitimate state of Israel and the headchopping bone saw wielding state of Saudi Arabia who have some of the worst human rights in the world. The reality is that the foreign policy of the EU is no different to that of the USA.

So despite what they tell you the EU is a warmongering organisation that doesn't care about peace at all. They have done nothing to make the world more peaceful. The fact that they claim to support democracy and human rights makes me laugh so much.

Finally we never got a vote on joining the EU. Why should we be part of something that we never voted to join. The government joined the EU without even letting the people vote on that decision.

You have the EU pegged as an entity in it's own right, rather than a democratic organisation binding 28 countries. I appreciate your position and for setting it out. I do believe that you're wrong and will not see any improvement outside of the EU.

 

[EM2]

Ok then. Here are just some of the problems with the EU:

Firstly the EU is not democratic and has way too much control over countries. Just by being part of the EU (or EFTA or EEA as well) countries are forced to follow laws and rules and regulations whether they agree with them or not. The EU sets all these laws and rules and regulations and all of the members have to follow them whether they like it or not. So when the EU makes new laws and rules and regulations we have no choice but to follow them. The EU has taken away a lot of our freedom to make our own decisions for our country.

All member states know this when they join. All member states vote on these laws.

Secondly the EU is a club for capitalists. Their main aim is to help the rich wealthy elite. These are the people who benefit the most from the EU.

Evidence?

Look at the way that the EU is trying to force countries to privatise everything. Look at the railways for example and how all countries are now being forced to allow private train companies to operate. If you go back many years to before the EU existed there was just one state owned train company for every country which operated all trains (which worked a lot better). Now for example look at Germany which has over 50 private train companies (more than us). This has made railway services in Europe go downhill. The only reason for the EU doing this is because they only care about the wealthy elite and the private companies but not about the ordinary people.

And it is not just the railways. They are trying to mess with everything. They want privatisation everywhere.

There is no need to privatise railways under EU law - https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32016L2370&from=EN

This Directive introduces further requirements to ensure the independence of the infrastructure manager. Member States should be free to choose between different organisational models, ranging from full structural separation to vertical integration, subject to appropriate safeguards to ensure the impartiality of the infrastructure manager as regards the essential functions, traffic management and maintenance planning. Member States should ensure that, within the limits of the established charging and allocation frameworks, the infrastructure manager enjoys organisational and decision-making independence as regards the essential functions.

Safeguards should apply in vertically integrated undertakings to ensure that other legal entities within those undertakings do not have a decisive influence on appointments and dismissals of persons in charge of taking decisions on the essential functions. In this context, Member States should ensure that there are complaints procedures in place.

Thirdly the EU is another typical warmongering organisation just like the, UK, USA, France, Israel, Saudi Arabia, etc etc etc, they have constantly supported wars and illegal invasions all over the world. Look at how they are now trying to create an EU military. Having an EU army wont improve anything because most of the EU countries are typical warmongering states. They don't care about peace at all despite what they say.

When was the last war between EU member states? When was the last war instigated by the EU or an EU member state?

Recently the EU have given their support for the USA backed coup in Venezuela and given recognition to the far right terrorist unelected coup plotter Juan Guaido who declared himself president. The EU supported the illegal wars and invasions of Libya and Syria and have been party responsible (along with many others) for causing the mess in these countries. The EU supported the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq despite what they tell you. The EU has supported the "white helmets" in Syria who are actually members of Al Qaeda and ISIS in disguise. People don't realise what a mess the EU foreign policy has created all around the world.

The EU has constantly supported sanctions against peaceful countries like Iran and Venezuela who they don't like yet they continue to give their full support to places like the apartheid illegitimate state of Israel and the headchopping bone saw wielding state of Saudi Arabia who have some of the worst human rights in the world. The reality is that the foreign policy of the EU is no different to that of the USA.

So despite what they tell you the EU is a warmongering organisation that doesn't care about peace at all. They have done nothing to make the world more peaceful. The fact that they claim to support democracy and human rights makes me laugh so much.

All of these decisions were taken by EU member states collectively. They were not taken against members wishes. Even if the UK were to leave, that would not stop these decisions being made, because the member states back them (whether rightly or wrongly).

Finally we never got a vote on joining the EU. Why should we be part of something that we never voted to join. The government joined the EU without even letting the people vote on that decision.

We had a vote in 1975 whether we wanted to leave. We didn't.
We had a vote in 2016 whether we wanted to leave. We did.
One-all.

 

[overthewater]

There is an Elephant in the room were not talking about which for many voters was the main reason.

 

[fowler9]

See that's my point. You've just dismissed my view out of hand. You'll not change my opinion, just as I'll not change yours. If anything, people just use these disagreements to reinforce their existing viewpoint.

Mate, you saying the EU just left you behind with absolutely no explanation as to how does not mean people are ignoring your point because you haven't made a point. You just said they did and we are all supposed to accept it. How has the EU left you behind?

 

[Puffing Devil]

There is an Elephant in the room were not talking about which for many voters was the main reason.

Name your elephant.

 

[overthewater]

A number of people voted because there believe immigration needs to stop and and sort itself out before moving forward. There is also a number of people who ..... it's NOT freedom of movement that is the problem is the freedom to claim benefits.. Channel 5 does wonders in that department.

 

[Puffing Devil]

A number of people voted because there believe immigration needs to stop and and sort itself out before moving forward. There is also a number of people who ..... it's NOT freedom of movement that is the problem is the freedom to claim benefits.. Channel 5 does wonders in that department.

That could easily be addressed if our government of 9 years chose to apply the rules of the EU and removed those that could not support themselves. Look at the law and not tabloid TV.

 

[AM9]

Mate, you saying the EU just left you behind with absolutely no explanation as to how does not mean people are ignoring your point because you haven't made a point. You just said they did and we are all supposed to accept it. How has the EU left you behind?

The EU, (as in 28 democratic nations) have left mmh behind in this discussion because they haven't done anything that mmh can point to as evidence.

 

[Puffing Devil]

A number of people voted because there believe immigration needs to stop and and sort itself out before moving forward. There is also a number of people who ..... it's NOT freedom of movement that is the problem is the freedom to claim benefits.. Channel 5 does wonders in that department.

Have a look at this video:

I would appreciate your considered comment.

 

[overthewater]

If that is EU law, then the Current Government and the last tory/lib dem and Labour ones has been breaking it or not enforcing it. As seen on Ch5, ch4, and everywhere else not kicking people out. Worse still the posh person said" No from countries we have nothing in common with" If we just talk about EU, Polls have been the largest group since the 1950s.. so there has been a link between the two for 70 years.

So Why is the Government not enforcing rules? Why are there lying to people. Why has the left and the right of politice done this? It would seem bigger problems are afoot...

 

[fowler9]

If that is EU law, then the Current Government and the last tory/lib dem and Labour ones has been breaking it or not enforcing it. As seen on Ch5, ch4, and everywhere else not kicking people out. Worse still the posh person said" No from countries we have nothing in common with" If we just talk about EU, Polls have been the largest group since the 1950s.. so there has been a link between the two for 70 years.

So Why is the Government not enforcing rules? Why are there lying to people. Why has the left and the right of politice done this? It would seem bigger problems are afoot...

Indeed, why have our government not been enforcing these rules? It would indeed seem that bigger problems are afoot. We will still have them after leaving the EU. They will be worse if anything.

 

[Puffing Devil]

If that is EU law, then the Current Government and the last tory/lib dem and Labour ones has been breaking it or not enforcing it. As seen on Ch5, ch4, and everywhere else not kicking people out. Worse still the posh person said" No from countries we have nothing in common with" If we just talk about EU, Polls have been the largest group since the 1950s.. so there has been a link between the two for 70 years.

So Why is the Government not enforcing rules? Why are there lying to people. Why has the left and the right of politice done this? It would seem bigger problems are afoot...

The Tories have been in the driving seat for the last 9 years. They chose not to enforce the law and instead push for Brexit.

Ask them about vested interests.

 

[dosxuk]

So Why is the Government not enforcing rules? Why are there lying to people. Why has the left and the right of politice done this? It would seem bigger problems are afoot...

Simply because, until Cameron's foolish decision to hold a referendum he thought he couldn't lose, there were no downsides to blaming the EU. "Why can immigrants claim benefits as soon as they arrive here?" "Because we can't be bothered to deal with the paperwork" vs "Because the nasty people in Brussels make us" - one goes down a lot better than the other with the local voting public.

It's probably worth pointing out this is not a phenomenon limited to the current government, it's been used by all three parties in control over the last 20 years.

 

[Aictos]

If we need (and I still think we won't) Visas - and probably certainly to fill in ETIAS forms, what will the procedure be @ St Pancras? As far as I know passports and tickets are checked this side of the channel, thus someone with the wrong docs couldn't travel. However, especially r/e visas, how long will it then take to process a queue, especially if a couple of pax's documents aren't in order? And what if the first country of stay is Holland or Germany yet we have to alight in Belgium and maybe even leave the station to catch a coach or something?

Perhaps a Brexit voter knows all the answers?

Point 1.

Any visa not in order should take the same time give or take as a passport not in order.

Point 2.

Why would anyone travelling to Holland or Germany have to get off in Belgium and leave the station or even get a coach for onward travel?

That to me seems daft and rather typical of a anti brexit view because anyone travelling to any country in the EU would surely have their passports/visas (IF the EU insists on them, I haven't seen proof that the EU will insist UK nationals apply for visas besides if you wanted to go to a number of EU countries that is a lot of visas which isn't in the best interests of the EU or the UK) checked at St Pancras when leaving/entering the UK and checked at the first EU country you arrive at much like what happens at Lille with Eurostar or with any airline between the UK and the EU at the moment.

If someone was travelling to Germany via Belgium for example then they would simply get their passport/visa checked at St Pancras and then only at Brussels as there are no border controls between EU countries unless those against Brexit are trying to suggest that this means all EU countries will bring in border controls against each other....