EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Teflon Lettuce]

Well the EU can't win in some eyes, if they had not played hardball then you'd just say they were a bunch of wimps and we should have walked out years ago.

no I wouldn't... I want to have a deep trading relationship with the rest of Europe... what I do NOT want is a political union...

 

[nidave]

and as I have also pointed out...the Swiss border is as frictionless as it can be... cars straight through {as long as they've paid their Swiss road tax} lorries and coaches 5 mins paperwork... no customs checks... no passport controls... so yes the EU can manage frictionless borders between itself and outside nations if it chooses to.. all your argument does is show that the EU chose, in this instance, to play hardball, be difficult and punish us for daring to want to leave!

Your talking rubbish again. its not 5 minutes. Have a listen to people who know what happens in the real world not your head.
https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/present...n-driver-being-put-out-of-business-by-brexit/

 

[bramling]

I would agree with you on Major... despite not being a Tory I always have had a modicum of respect for Major... an ordinary, well meaning and thoroughly decent man who I do believe did what HE thought best for our country... without any "angle" of self interest... you could almost say he was a reluctant PM...

I'd say the jury's out on that one. There's the alternative scenario that he was someone of low ability who laid low until he had a one-off opportunity to be PM by being "none of the above". Unlike a certain someone else, he did at least manage not to blow a general election though! (Well, not the first one, anyway!).

 

[birchesgreen]

You mean the eu looking out of its members. How dare they. Don't they know who we are. Sigh

Yes its very strange, i thought they needed us more than we need them???

 

[EM2]

no I wouldn't... I want to have a deep trading relationship with the rest of Europe... what I do NOT want is a political union...

And you wouldn't have had one.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Your talking rubbish again. its not 5 minutes. Have a listen to people who know what happens in the real world not your head.
https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/special...iver-who-went-viral-takes-on-jacob-rees-mogg/

nah... I think I'll go by my own personal experiences of crossing the borders regularly as a coach driver thankyou... now please retract your accusation that I'm talking rubbish AND STOP TROLLING ME!

 

[Darandio]

I've no idea why you are all still feeding him. The MO here is quite clear, to keep digging the hole as much as possible and get the thread locked.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I've no idea why you are all still feeding him. The MO here is quite clear, to keep digging the hole as much as possible and get the thread locked.

Again... wrong... how dare you presume to know my mind... just because I do not agree with your viewpoint does NOT make mine invalid.. if you don't like dissent from your own narrow understanding of the world then I suggest you emigrate to a totalitarian state that holds the same views as yourself... as to me... I'll continue to treasure my democratic right to hold any view I wish to hold and to express my view

but of course I forgot... I'm a Brexit supporter... so automatically I'm a jingoistic bigotted moron that has no independant thought of my own. I can be led by the nose by the first smarmy person that comes along... funny though... I'm the one putting forward coherent arguments.. whether you agree with them or not they are coherent.... and yet it is the Remain supporters with their self proclaimed superior intellect and understanding that are hurling primary school playground insults around as "legitimate debate and argument"

it's pathetic!

 

[nidave]

Theresa May's Brexit deal will cost £1,090 for every person in the UK, shock research claims today.

The economy will be 3.9% less valuable - £100bn a year by 2030 - under May's pact compared to if the nation stayed in the EU, a leading economic think tank said.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/theresa-mays-brexit-deal-would-13645855

 

[nidave]

nah... I think I'll go by my own personal experiences of crossing the borders regularly as a coach driver thankyou... now please retract your accusation that I'm talking rubbish AND STOP TROLLING ME!

Is someone getting upset at facts.

 

[AM9]

... so I ask all those accusing me of being ignorant for not listening to him.... why would I believe a single word a lying war criminal would say?

Had you bothered to listen to him when he was the Prime Minister (with a greater majority than Major, Cameron and May) you might have understood the reality of the Good Friday Agreement and even if you had still decided to vote leave, you would have been less likely to show your total ignorance on the subject in this thread. Still, keep the trolls up, they are in many ways quite comical, despite being very sad.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Had you bothered to listen to him when he was the Prime Minister (with a greater majority than Major, Cameron and May) you might have understood the reality of the Good Friday Agreement and even if you had still decided to vote leave, you would have been less likely to show your total ignorance on the subject in this thread. Still, keep the trolls up, they are in many ways quite comical, despite being very sad.

The truth is I, like most people in Great Britain probably, at the time was only interested in the GFA in as much as it brought peace...not bothering to listen to all the details and waffle... now as to the present situation regarding Brexit and the NI border this is how my thought process went...

I want to leave the EU
I still want a customs union and free movement of goods but I want a stop to free movement of people.
but there's a land border between NI and Ireland. Will that cause a problem? That depends...is Ireland in Schengen? well it can't be as there is free movement between Ireland and the UK predating Schengen... if Ireland was in Schengen it would be pointless us being out of it {it has since been confirmed on here that Ireland isn't} Therefore there is no problem with a border....all that would be needed would be a law saying you had to have photo id to board a ferry or plane {which I thought was law anyway having watched Airline when Easyjet were insisting Driving licences were no longer valid ID from Belfast.

The EU were the only ones adamant that free movement of goods couldn't be seperated from movement of people so ergo it is the EU that created the problem in the first place... quite a lucid argument based on quite a few facts it seems...

 

[EM2]

The EU were the only ones adamant that free movement of goods couldn't be seperated from movement of people...

Because it is one of their founding principles. You honestly expect any organisation to betray the very basis on which it was founded? That would surely be hypocrisy of the highest order, no?

 

[radamfi]

which I thought was law anyway having watched Airline when Easyjet were insisting Driving licences were no longer valid ID from Belfast.

That is only their company policy. British Airways do not require ID for domestic flights they only "advise" you carry it.

https://www.britishairways.com/en-de/information/passports-visas-and-api

If you are flying solely within the UK, including Northern Ireland, you do not need a passport but we advise that you carry photographic identification with you when travelling, such as your passport or driving licence. This may be requested at certain points in your journey. Children under the age of 16 years do not require identification to travel within the UK.

 

[fowler9]

The truth is I, like most people in Great Britain probably, at the time was only interested in the GFA in as much as it brought peace...not bothering to listen to all the details and waffle... now as to the present situation regarding Brexit and the NI border this is how my thought process went...

I want to leave the EU
I still want a customs union and free movement of goods but I want a stop to free movement of people.
but there's a land border between NI and Ireland. Will that cause a problem? That depends...is Ireland in Schengen? well it can't be as there is free movement between Ireland and the UK predating Schengen... if Ireland was in Schengen it would be pointless us being out of it {it has since been confirmed on here that Ireland isn't} Therefore there is no problem with a border....all that would be needed would be a law saying you had to have photo id to board a ferry or plane {which I thought was law anyway having watched Airline when Easyjet were insisting Driving licences were no longer valid ID from Belfast.

The EU were the only ones adamant that free movement of goods couldn't be seperated from movement of people so ergo it is the EU that created the problem in the first place... quite a lucid argument based on quite a few facts it seems...

I'm confused, easily done, haha, what would be the point of free movement of goods but not people between Northern Ireland and Eire when looked at in relation to the GFA.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I'm confused, easily done, haha, what would be the point of free movement of goods but not people between Northern Ireland and Eire when looked at in relation to the GFA.

I don't see what point you're getting at...

 

[nidave]

The truth is I, like most people in Great Britain probably, at the time was only interested in the GFA in as much as it brought peace...not bothering to listen to all the details and waffle... now as to the present situation regarding Brexit and the NI border this is how my thought process went...

I want to leave the EU
I still want a customs union and free movement of goods but I want a stop to free movement of people.
but there's a land border between NI and Ireland. Will that cause a problem? That depends...is Ireland in Schengen? well it can't be as there is free movement between Ireland and the UK predating Schengen... if Ireland was in Schengen it would be pointless us being out of it {it has since been confirmed on here that Ireland isn't} Therefore there is no problem with a border....all that would be needed would be a law saying you had to have photo id to board a ferry or plane {which I thought was law anyway having watched Airline when Easyjet were insisting Driving licences were no longer valid ID from Belfast.

The EU were the only ones adamant that free movement of goods couldn't be seperated from movement of people so ergo it is the EU that created the problem in the first place... quite a lucid argument based on quite a few facts it seems...

The eu did not create the problem the UK (more specifically England) created this problem. The fact you were ignorant about the issues and obsessive over freedom of movement is telling.

 

[bramling]

The eu did not create the problem the UK (more specifically England) created this problem. The fact you were ignorant a out the issues and obsessive over freedom of movement is telling.

Whichever way one looks at it, the border issue related to NI, the ROI, and the EU. Perhaps NI should count itself fortunate that England (I'm unsure why you don't mention Wales too) was patient for so long.

 

[nidave]

Whichever way one looks at it, the border issue related to NI, the ROI, and the EU. Perhaps NI should count itself fortunate that England (I'm unsure why you don't mention Wales too) was patient for so long.

So the rest of the country (England and yes your right Wales) are not involved in the current clusterf%ck. That's a bit revisionist. Remind me who voted to leave the EU and cause the current problems with the gfa. It wasn't n. Ireland. It was the fine people of England (and Wales).

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

The eu did not create the problem the UK (more specifically England) created this problem. The fact you were ignorant about the issues and obsessive over freedom of movement is telling.

what? England are responsible for creating this problem? how exactly? by invading Ireland a thousand years ago? seriously though... if it was the EU that insisted that free movement of goods and services couldn't be separated from free movement of people.. and in reality it is the free movement of people that would cause the biggest issues without a deal or backstop.... then surely it is EU intransigence that has created the problem? of course if you've got a convincing argument as to why you think the EU aren't responsible for a result down to their own action/ decision then I'd love to hear it....

 

[nidave]

Who voted for brexit. N. Ireland mostly voted remain. Who is causing the current problems by potentially invalidating the GFA. That's right brexit votes. Not the roi or the eu or even no.(despite the rubbish spouted by the dup)

Who is goiing to keep the lights on when the cobtravys created under the GFA are invalidated. Who's responsible for the mess. It's not n. Ireland, it's not the roi or the eu. The people of n. Ireland and the roi voted for the GFA and others are undoing that. So yes its brexit voteers who are to blame

 

[EM2]

of course if you've got a convincing argument as to why you think the EU aren't responsible for a result down to their own action/ decision then I'd love to hear it....

Again, because it would mean treating the UK differently to every other country that doesn't have an arrangement, and it would mean betraying their founding principles. Why do you insist that they should do that?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

a thought to ponder.. Remain supporters claim the EU is democratic and shout down any argument that it isn't.... so if the EU is such a great democratic institution why has it made leaving so difficult? why is it being so obstinate and intransigent? surely if it was such a great bastion of democracy it would be making it as easy as possible for the democratic will of the people to be enacted?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Who voted for brexit. N. Ireland mostly voted remain. Who is causing the current problems by pote tally invalidating the GFA. That's right brexit votes. Not the roi or the eu or even no.)(despite the rubbish spouted by the dup)

but the point is there is an easy solution... separate free movement of good from movement of people... as ROI isn't part of Schengen all customs controls can be carried out without any added border requirements... save that NI/ROI residents would need photo ID to travel to mainland Britain.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Again, because it would mean treating the UK differently to every other country that doesn't have an arrangement, and it would mean betraying their founding principles. Why do you insist that they should do that?

but I am sure that those responsible for writing the founding principles didn't envisage the widespread abuses that have been made of them... by some Brits as well... remember there is an unemployed ex-pat community on the Costas.... so I would've thought it would've been an opportune time for the EU to look at that founding principle and see if it needs some controls put in...and considering how the open borders of Schengen have been flouted for terrorist atrocities it really does surprise me that the EU still believes open borders within the EU is such a good idea!

 

[EM2]

a thought to ponder.. Remain supporters claim the EU is democratic and shout down any argument that it isn't.... so if the EU is such a great democratic institution why has it made leaving so difficult? why is it being so obstinate and intransigent? surely if it was such a great bastion of democracy it would be making it as easy as possible for the democratic will of the people to be enacted?

It is. It has to represent the interests and needs of 27 members, including the one that has a land border with the UK. It has to take the views of all those members into account.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

It is. It has to represent the interests and needs of 27 members, including the one that has a land border with the UK. It has to take the views of all those members into account.

but what doesn't seem to get pointed out is that if, through it's intransigence, the UK crashes out without a deal and it causes the UK problems due to the extra customs checks.... then Ireland's economy would be almost as hard hit probably... considering a large part of it's trade goes through the UK on it's way to the continent... no customs treaty and Ireland's businesses face TWO lengthy customs delays...

 

[EM2]

but I am sure that those responsible for writing the founding principles didn't envisage the widespread abuses that have been made of them... by some Brits as well... remember there is an unemployed ex-pat community on the Costas.... so I would've thought it would've been an opportune time for the EU to look at that founding principle and see if it needs some controls put in...and considering how the open borders of Schengen have been flouted for terrorist atrocities it really does surprise me that the EU still believes open borders within the EU is such a good idea!

You have to remember that it is not free movement of people, it is free movement of workers. If you are not a worker, then you have to prove that you will not be reliant on the host state. If you cannot prove that after three months, they have the right to expel you.
http://eulawanalysis.blogspot.com/2014/03/can-unemployed-eu-citizens-be-expelled.html

EU citizens can be expelled due to unemployment if they are not permanent residents, lack ‘sufficient resources’, and have become an unreasonable burden on the social assistance system, provided that they: (a) are not workers or self-employed persons, or the family members of an EU citizen or the parent carers of an EU citizen’s child as described above; (b) have worked for less than one year, if their grace period of least six months has run out; or (c) entered as a work-seeker, and cannot prove that they are still seeking employment and have a genuine chance of getting a job. Even if these criteria are satisfied, the legislation and case law make clear that each individual case must be considered before expulsion.

The rules are there. It is not the EU's fault if a member state decided not to enforce them.

 

[EM2]

but what doesn't seem to get pointed out is that if, through it's intransigence, the UK crashes out without a deal and it causes the UK problems due to the extra customs checks.... then Ireland's economy would be almost as hard hit probably... considering a large part of it's trade goes through the UK on it's way to the continent... no customs treaty and Ireland's businesses face TWO lengthy customs delays...

Which is why no party involved wants a hard border! But Theresa May put in ridiculous red lines that made any other option impossible.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

You have to remember that it is not free movement of people, it is free movement of workers. If you are not a worker, then you have to prove that you will not be reliant on the host state. If you cannot prove that after three months, they have the right to expel you.
http://eulawanalysis.blogspot.com/2014/03/can-unemployed-eu-citizens-be-expelled.html

The rules are there. It is not the EU's fault if a member state decided not to enforce them.

but if they have worked for one year they get residency right? then what? if they lose their job the next day and decide never to work again?
and before all the cries of "bigot" come flooding over... I don't for one minute think that even a large minority of EU migrants do that... but it DOES happen... and as I said before...unemployed Brits on the Costas aren't all genuinely looking for work to support themselves