EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Howardh]

I'm afraid many people elsewhere in the UK reading the above will likely form the view "sooner we get rid of NI the better, and save us a shed load of spending in the process". The whole of the UK does not revolve around the problems of less than 2m people in NI.

What about your fellow 349,442 Brexit voters in NI? Throw them to the dogs, dump them in another country and still in the EU against their wishes?

 

[SteveP29]

I read this yesterday, fascinating reading on why people voted the way they did in Holyhead.
It is overly long, granted, but it's Brexit in a nutshell for those that don't have a vested interest in the outcome

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/wor...it-when-will-people-wake-the-f-k-up-1.3705798

 

[najaB]

There's no way Britain's gasping-for-breath infrastructure can accommodate such an influx.

If our infrastructure is 'gasping for breath' it's because we've (a) chosen not to spend on it; and (b) have a planning system with a presumption against development. Nothing that is going to be fixed by leaving the EU.

 

[najaB]

and exactly the opposite of what those already on poverty wages need.

True (arguably) but the assertion was that the 'open door policy' was a bad thing. It was exactly what some people wanted.

 

[bramling]

If our infrastructure is 'gasping for breath' it's because we've (a) chosen not to spend on it; and (b) have a planning system with a presumption against development. Nothing that is going to be fixed by leaving the EU.

Maybe, although I'd suggest that in some areas it's because there now simply isn't the room to develop things affordably, or perhaps in some cases at all. It simply isn't feasible to keep stuffing more and more people in a finite space - and, like it not, most people don't want to re-locate to Accrington or wherever!

 

[bramling]

What about your fellow 349,442 Brexit voters in NI? Throw them to the dogs, dump them in another country and still in the EU against their wishes?

If NI can't find a peaceful solution to its issues, then yes, that's a viable long-term solution.

 

[WelshBluebird]

for some strange reason I tend to close my ears when Blair opens his mouth...

in any case.. citing Blair as having said anything isn't really helpful... cos anyone listening to him would automatically take the opposing view considering what a tenuous grasp Blair has shown himself to have on facts and truth!

So you complain about the issue not being mentioned (despite the fact that any tiny amount of independent thought would have let you realise the potential issues) and then in the same reply rubbish the comments where it was mentioned and say you wouldn't have listened anyway? Amazing. Really says everything.

 

[adrock1976]

Not at all... I have on numerous occasions predicted the course of events since the fall of Communism in Eastern Europe...in this particular case I predicted that the EU would refuse to let us go... as is proved by this so called deal. Why, might you ask, did I vote for something I knew had no hope of succeeding? Simple really... I was hoping that it would open the eyes of the population in general as to the true nature of the EU... unfortunately remainers are so busy saying "I told you so" that they can't see the truth... that we have already lost our sovereignty and democracy... it was taken away from us while we weren't looking years ago.... this is the outcome that the "Bastards" of Major's government were warning about during the Maastricht negotiations and debates....as many of today's Brexiteers are the inheritors of the Bastards baton us Leave supporters could just as much say to remainers "see.. told you so!"

Regarding the likes of China, the former Soviet Union, Cuba, etc, you could say that was not communism at all if you have ever read the famous work of Karl Marx and Fredrich Engels "The Communist Manifesto". China, the former Soviet Union, Cuba, etc was actually state capitalism that was controlled by a ruling elite (the bourgeoise), replacing one bunch of ruling elites with another.

 

[Darandio]

for some strange reason I tend to close my ears when Blair opens his mouth...

in any case.. citing Blair as having said anything isn't really helpful... cos anyone listening to him would automatically take the opposing view considering what a tenuous grasp Blair has shown himself to have on facts and truth!

So you claim nothing was mentioned, yet would have ignored it when mentioned anyway?

I'm very, very surprised anyone is giving any time of day to any of your posts. Multiple guff in multiple threads.

 

[bramling]

So you complain about the issue not being mentioned (despite the fact that any tiny amount of independent thought would have let you realise the potential issues) and then in the same reply rubbish the comments where it was mentioned and say you wouldn't have listened anyway? Amazing. Really says everything.

At the time we didn't have the situation of one element of Northern Irish politics having a disproportionate and deadlocking influence - in the form of May's DUP arrangement. It was a quite reasonable assumption to make that the outcome of the referendum would be delivered by the government in office at the time.

 

[Howardh]

If NI can't find a peaceful solution to its issues, then yes, that's a viable long-term solution.

With friends like you who needs.....

 

[WelshBluebird]

At the time we didn't have the situation of one element of Northern Irish politics having a disproportionate and deadlocking influence - in the form of May's DUP arrangement. It was a quite reasonable assumption to make that the outcome of the referendum would be delivered by the government in office at the time.

Regardless of the DUP's current influence, it really shouldn't have been much effort to realise that the NI issue could be a sticking point. My thoughts at the time were a bit less complicated than the current situation (I assumed that the EU would be wanting changes involving a "harder" border allow an actual EU border for people, goods and services and the UK government would be the one sticking up for the GF agreement - even I wasn't informed enough to know much more than that), but it really isn't that difficult to put two and two together. Even if you aren't aware of the details of the NI issue, the concept of the NI border being a soft one and that maybe being an issue if we leave the customers union or stop freedom of movement. Of course, back in the real world what happened was leavers made a lot of noises about either staying in the CU, or having a Norway type deal, or even staying in the EEA, all of which would have made the NI issue a much much smaller one, so I didn't really pay TOO much attention to it - but I damn well knew that the issue could blow up - if you weren't aware of that then you had no business voting in the referendum at all IMO (which is why I opposed the referendum in the first place, too many people not knowing or understanding the consequences).

 

[bramling]

With friends like you who needs.....

It's more a case of pragmatism - the demographics are widely regarded as heading that way in any case.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

True (arguably) but the assertion was that the 'open door policy' was a bad thing. It was exactly what some people wanted.

those "some people" being businessmen that want to pay poverty wages to maximise their own over-inflated pay packets perchance?

Regarding the likes of China, the former Soviet Union, Cuba, etc, you could say that was not communism at all if you have ever read the famous work of Karl Marx and Fredrich Engels "The Communist Manifesto". China, the former Soviet Union, Cuba, etc was actually state capitalism that was controlled by a ruling elite (the bourgeoise), replacing one bunch of ruling elites with another.

Good grief now people really are clutching at straws to prove a point.... it is blatantly obvious that when I mentioned the "fall of Communism" I was referring to the collapse of the Soviet Union and it's satellite puppet governments that called themselves communist!

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

So you claim nothing was mentioned, yet would have ignored it when mentioned anyway?

I'm very, very surprised anyone is giving any time of day to any of your posts. Multiple guff in multiple threads.

really... is that your level of debate? "you speak rubbish... I say so so it must be true so will not back the slur up with any form of evidence or quotes... another remainer troll!

 

[Darandio]

really... is that your level of debate? "you speak rubbish... I say so so it must be true so will not back the slur up with any form of evidence or quotes... another remainer troll!

Evidence of your constant guff? It's quite easy for anyone to obtain evidence, they can just look at your posting history.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Regardless of the DUP's current influence, it really shouldn't have been much effort to realise that the NI issue could be a sticking point. My thoughts at the time were a bit less complicated than the current situation (I assumed that the EU would be wanting changes involving a "harder" border allow an actual EU border for people, goods and services and the UK government would be the one sticking up for the GF agreement - even I wasn't informed enough to know much more than that), but it really isn't that difficult to put two and two together. Even if you aren't aware of the details of the NI issue, the concept of the NI border being a soft one and that maybe being an issue if we leave the customers union or stop freedom of movement. Of course, back in the real world what happened was leavers made a lot of noises about either staying in the CU, or having a Norway type deal, or even staying in the EEA, all of which would have made the NI issue a much much smaller one, so I didn't really pay TOO much attention to it - but I damn well knew that the issue could blow up - if you weren't aware of that then you had no business voting in the referendum at all IMO (which is why I opposed the referendum in the first place, too many people not knowing or understanding the consequences).

The point is simple really... Ireland isn't part of the Schengen area... so presumably checks passports of all who pass through it's ports and airports....so why is the border between NI and Ireland such a big issue? It just doesn't make sense.... no-one... not even the most ardent Brexiteer has ever seriously argued that we don't want to trade with Europe... in fact I remember it said time and again that we didn't want to withdraw from free movement of goods.... The problem was a simple one... the EU said that to have free movement of goods we HAD to accept free movement of people.... so stalemate... and because goods had been irretrievably paired to people by the EU there came a certain problem about a certain border.... so tell me all you hatemongers who are trolling me for daring to have a different opinion to them.... who is responsible for the mess?

Certainly not those of us who, in good faith, voted with our own consciences for Brexit... try turning your ire on the intransigent EU who you love so much... it is they that created the problem that didn't need to be there....

 

[bramling]

Regardless of the DUP's current influence, it really shouldn't have been much effort to realise that the NI issue could be a sticking point. My thoughts at the time were a bit less complicated than the current situation (I assumed that the EU would be wanting changes involving a "harder" border allow an actual EU border for people, goods and services and the UK government would be the one sticking up for the GF agreement - even I wasn't informed enough to know much more than that), but it really isn't that difficult to put two and two together. Even if you aren't aware of the details of the NI issue, the concept of the NI border being a soft one and that maybe being an issue if we leave the customers union or stop freedom of movement. Of course, back in the real world what happened was leavers made a lot of noises about either staying in the CU, or having a Norway type deal, or even staying in the EEA, all of which would have made the NI issue a much much smaller one, so I didn't really pay TOO much attention to it - but I damn well knew that the issue could blow up - if you weren't aware of that then you had no business voting in the referendum at all IMO (which is why I opposed the referendum in the first place, too many people not knowing or understanding the consequences).

Perhaps maybe there should be another referendum, but not the one everyone's thinking of. An opportunity for NI to make its mind up on one or more issues.

 

[Basher]

I would not trust Blair to walk my dog.
Just remember all, he was after the top job in the EU when he left the commons. That says it all about his position.

 

[northwichcat]

I would not trust Blair to walk my dog.
Just remember all, he was after the top job in the EU when he left the commons. That says it all about his position.

Lots of reasons not to trust Blair. However, on the EU Blair and Major are former politicians and aren't using the EU to try to further their position unlike Boris and Farage.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

However, on the EU Blair and Major are former politicians and aren't using the EU to try to further their position unlike Boris and Farage.

I would agree with you on Major... despite not being a Tory I always have had a modicum of respect for Major... an ordinary, well meaning and thoroughly decent man who I do believe did what HE thought best for our country... without any "angle" of self interest... you could almost say he was a reluctant PM... and certainly, unlike other former leaders he has generally done the decent thing and kept quiet when he doesn't agree with the present leadership of his party.

However... Blair? that man is an out and out liar full of self interest... he wouldn't even look at someone without there being something in it for him...

so I ask all those accusing me of being ignorant for not listening to him.... why would I believe a single word a lying war criminal would say?

 

[Basher]

Don't totally agree with you.
Blair, would still like to be head of EU. There is still a vacancy for garter. But I do not think the queen wants Blair to have it.
Major was a wet and still is.
Boris is Boris
Farage, will be made redundant when we come out. I would like him elevated to the Lords.
I'm very grateful to Farage, he is making this country stand up for it's self.

 

[nidave]

The point is simple really... Ireland isn't part of the Schengen area... so presumably checks passports of all who pass through it's ports and airports....so why is the border between NI and Ireland such a big issue? It just doesn't make sense.... no-one... not even the most ardent Brexiteer has ever seriously argued that we don't want to trade with Europe... in fact I remember it said time and again that we didn't want to withdraw from free movement of goods.... The problem was a simple one... the EU said that to have free movement of goods we HAD to accept free movement of people.... so stalemate... and because goods had been irretrievably paired to people by the EU there came a certain problem about a certain border.... so tell me all you hatemongers who are trolling me for daring to have a different opinion to them.... who is responsible for the mess?

Certainly not those of us who, in good faith, voted with our own consciences for Brexit... try turning your ire on the intransigent EU who you love so much... it is they that created the problem that didn't need to be there....

This is not only about people. How many times do you need to be told before you actually listen.

 

[EM2]

Certainly not those of us who, in good faith, voted with our own consciences for Brexit... try turning your ire on the intransigent EU who you love so much... it is they that created the problem that didn't need to be there....

It has already been explained to you a number of times that there is no frictionless border anywhere between an EU state and a non-EU state (except by agreement). Why should the EU make a special exception for the UK?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

This is not only about people. How many times do you need to be told before you actually listen.

and if you actually bothered to read my post instead of just trolling me you would realise that I do understand that there is 2 different issues.. movement of people and movement of goods... what I do argue though is that is the intransigence of the EU not contemplating one without the other that has led to the NI border being problematic...

out of interest has it not occurred to any Remain voters that actually the hardball bullyboy intransigence shown by the EU during the "negotiations" has only hardened the belief of many leave voters that they were right to vote to leave

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

It has already been explained to you a number of times that there is no frictionless border anywhere between an EU state and a non-EU state (except by agreement). Why should the EU make a special exception for the UK?

and as I have also pointed out...the Swiss border is as frictionless as it can be... cars straight through {as long as they've paid their Swiss road tax} lorries and coaches 5 mins paperwork... no customs checks... no passport controls... so yes the EU can manage frictionless borders between itself and outside nations if it chooses to.. all your argument does is show that the EU chose, in this instance, to play hardball, be difficult and punish us for daring to want to leave!

 

[birchesgreen]

Well the EU can't win in some eyes, if they had not played hardball then you'd just say they were a bunch of wimps and we should have walked out years ago.

 

[nidave]

Well the EU can't win in some eyes, if they had not played hardball then you'd just say they were a bunch of wimps and we should have walked out years ago.

You mean the eu looking out of its members. How dare they. Don't they know who we are. Sigh

 

[EM2]

and as I have also pointed out...the Swiss border is as frictionless as it can be... cars straight through {as long as they've paid their Swiss road tax} lorries and coaches 5 mins paperwork... no customs checks... no passport controls...

I suggest that you read this post again:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/boris-johnson-is-a-liability.168085/page-19#post-3639792

 

[Aictos]

Maybe, although I'd suggest that in some areas it's because there now simply isn't the room to develop things affordably, or perhaps in some cases at all. It simply isn't feasible to keep stuffing more and more people in a finite space - and, like it not, most people don't want to re-locate to Accrington or wherever!

Oi, nothing wrong with Accrington thank you very much!