EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Teflon Lettuce]

Gibraltar is in the European Union. Why would they have been included in the referendum if they weren't?

I've been wondering the same since we had the referendum... The referendum was a UK referendum and, to the best of my knowledge Gibraltar ISN'T part of the UK else it would vote in our General Elections and would be represented by an MP in Westminster. AFAIR it is a Crown dependancy with a Governor General.... the same as the Falklands or {believe it or not... New zealand}

 

[najaB]

AFAIR it is a Crown dependancy with a Governor General.... the same as the Falklands or {believe it or not... New zealand}

It is not. Neither is New Zealand.

 

[507021]

I've been wondering the same since we had the referendum... The referendum was a UK referendum and, to the best of my knowledge Gibraltar ISN'T part of the UK else it would vote in our General Elections and would be represented by an MP in Westminster. AFAIR it is a Crown dependancy with a Governor General.... the same as the Falklands or {believe it or not... New zealand}

Gibraltar was included in the referendum because by virtue of Article 227 of the Treaty of Rome, it is a member of the European Union, but not the customs union.

Like the Falkland Islands, Bermuda, etc., Gibraltar is an Overseas Territory. The Isle of Man and Channel Islands are the United Kingdom's only Crown Dependencies.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Gibraltar was included in the referendum because by virtue of Article 227 of the Treaty of Rome, it is a member of the European Union, but not the customs union.

Like the Falkland Islands, Bermuda, etc., Gibraltar is an Overseas Territory. The Isle of Man and Channel Islands are the United Kingdom's only Crown Dependencies.

1. if it is an Overseas Territory it isn't part of the UK as defined by the United Nations.
2. If the EU has an article clearly accepting that Gibraltar is a British territory then it matters not what.. Spain gets no say in what happens with Gibraltar... in the same way that the UK gets no say in what any Spanish territories do.

Incidently.... I find it odd that there have been many months of gnashing of teeth over the NI border.... how comes only now does anyone mention the Gibraltar border? Just another case of remainers clutching at straws to frustrate Brexit perhaps?

 

[Jonny]

Plus how much is it going to cost us to replicate/pay for the things the EU does for us already, such as certifying pilots?]

Certifying pilots is done by the CAA as it stands. It is funded primarily by licensing fees.

 

[Howardh]

1. if it is an Overseas Territory it isn't part of the UK as defined by the United Nations.
2. If the EU has an article clearly accepting that Gibraltar is a British territory then it matters not what.. Spain gets no say in what happens with Gibraltar... in the same way that the UK gets no say in what any Spanish territories do.

Incidently.... I find it odd that there have been many months of gnashing of teeth over the NI border.... how comes only now does anyone mention the Gibraltar border? Just another case of remainers clutching at straws to frustrate Brexit perhaps?

Not quite. before the referendum I was on the BBC trying to explain that - other than the nice and easy to solve UK/Ireland border, we face difficulties r/e the Gibraltar one.
Firstly, in the 80's I believe, Spain closed the border so anyone (including Spanish) could cross into Gib, but not return. leaving the EU means that possibility arises again, as Spain couldn't close the border under EU rules (as you allude to, the EU accepts Gib as British territory).
Secondly, a more likely outcome - especially without a deal, means that documents in addition to passports would be required to cross that border; not so much a problem for tourists maybe, but for people living and working either side of the border there looms the prospect of working and residence visas.
Again I understand there are more Spanish working in Gib than the other way round, so if they made life difficult then it's for their own people rather than Brits.
Thirdly, if the Spanish get frisky over soveriegnity, there is the outside chance of blockades (a la 80's where the only routes in were by air and sea) and an even remoter chance of an invasion. I would put the chance of the latter at next-to-zero BUT when governments in trouble (see under "Argentina" and "Falklands") are looking for a major distraction....
I would consider letting Spain share (and pay for) the airport - it's very close to the border and is possible to have two routes in and out so that Spain/Schengen flights do not have to go through the UK border; I think that would boost their local economy around Gibraltar and bring in much needed income to an expensive bit of infrastructure.

 

[dosxuk]

Incidently.... I find it odd that there have been many months of gnashing of teeth over the NI border.... how comes only now does anyone mention the Gibraltar border? Just another case of remainers clutching at straws to frustrate Brexit perhaps?

Plenty of people have brought up the issue of the Gibraltar / Spain border and it's history, but it's been dismissed as another aspect of Project Fear, because our pensioners spend so much money in Spain buying property that Spain could never raise it as an issue.

The important thing with this issue is not that Spain could decide to vote against the brexit deal (they can, but their one vote won't stop it from happening as a unanimous decision isn't required), but rather that Spain can veto a future trade deal if they're not happy with the whole situation.

So much for they need us more than we need them...

 

[najaB]

if it is an Overseas Territory it isn't part of the UK as defined by the United Nations

It is. In exactly the same way as Guadalupe and Martinique are part of France.

You do realise that simply stating something doesn't make it true?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

It is.

ok.. so if it IS part of the UK pray tell... who is the MP returned for Gibraltar? it doesn't have one? it's not represented in our Parliament? so much for democracy then... cos what that means is all of the UK gets to decide who rules over them... apart from one constituency that gets no say whatsoever! or to put it another way... where else in the UK is directly ruled by a governor general?

 

[najaB]

ok.. so if it IS part of the UK pray tell... who is the MP returned for Gibraltar? it doesn't have one? it's not represented in our Parliament?

You said 'as defined by the UN'. That's a completely different thing. They aren't independent countries and are represented in the UN by the representative from the UK.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

You said 'as defined by the UN'. That's a completely different thing. They aren't independent countries and are represented in the UN by the representative from the UK.

make up your mind... is Gibraltar an independent territory or is it a dependancy... you can't have it both ways.. both positions are mutually exclusive!

 

[najaB]

make up your mind... is Gibraltar an independent territory or is it a dependancy... you can't have it both ways.. both positions are mutually exclusive!

Might I suggest you re-read the post you quoted?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Might I suggest you re-read the post you quoted?

might I suggest you make up your mind what the status of Gibraltar is? you've argued for both it being independent and a dependency... and as I say the 2 are mutually exclusive.

 

[nlogax]

Since 2004 Gibraltar has taken part in European elections, voting as part of the South West England constituency.

Gibraltar is a British Overseas Territory, not a Dependency. However, just like dependencies, territories are not technically a part of the United Kingdom.

Probably more useful if I were to chuck in some references, right?

https://www.justice.gov.uk/downloads/about/moj/our-responsibilities/crown-dependencies-factsheet.pdf

https://www.gov.uk/world/gibraltar/news

https://www.ft.com/content/66ecc22a-82a3-3695-a1e8-38d6cfde9fd3

 

[EM2]

make up your mind... is Gibraltar an independent territory or is it a dependancy... you can't have it both ways.. both positions are mutually exclusive!

It is neither, it is a British Overseas Territory. It is not an independent nation, and the EU recognises it as part of the UK, hence why Gib votes in European elections.

 

[najaB]

you've argued for both it being independent and a dependency...

Might l suggest you actually read my posts...

 

[Howardh]

Gibraltar is self governing, so to have an MP in Parliament would be rather unnecessary, they would vote on laws which effect the UK but not Gibraltar!
On saying that I actually believe all our outposts should be represented in Parliament, Anguilla (UK o/s territory) for example has Brexit issues as they rely almost entirely on nearby St Maarten (EU island shared by F & NL) so no deal = problems for them re trade/goods/tariffs as well as people's movement daily. Think all serious medical cases are dealt with on St Maarten.
Completely overlooked by the leave campaign of course.

 

[mmh]

No deal that causes one more drop of blood to be spilled over the Irish question is worth the paper it's written on but sadly that risk seems of no consequence to Brexiteers.

Nobody is about to spill any blood over leaving the EU, what a ridiculous, and insulting, thing to suggest.

 

[najaB]

Nobody is about to spill any blood over leaving the EU, what a ridiculous, and insulting, thing to suggest.

If there's a hard border, anything is a possible consequence.

 

[mmh]

Gibraltar is self governing, so to have an MP in Parliament would be rather unnecessary, they would vote on laws which effect the UK but not Gibraltar!
On saying that I actually believe all our outposts should be represented in Parliament, Anguilla (UK o/s territory) for example has Brexit issues as they rely almost entirely on nearby St Maarten (EU island shared by F & NL) so no deal = problems for them re trade/goods/tariffs as well as people's movement daily. Think all serious medical cases are dealt with on St Maarten.
Completely overlooked by the leave campaign of course.

What on earth has St Maarten got to do with anything? Nobody who isn't Dutch or an airport geek has ever heard of the place.

Good luck persuading Jersey that there should be Westminster MP and be ruled from Britain. That's exactly the kind of opinion that's made a lot of people dislike being ruled by the EU.

 

[mmh]

If there's a hard border, anything is a possible consequence.

Both the UK and Ireland have said they will never do that.

The only people who insist it's a problem are "the EU" (whatever that actually means) and others desperate to make it a problem.

 

[najaB]

Both the UK and Ireland have said they will never do that.

How can you have both no free movement of people and goods and no hard border?

 

[mmh]

1. if it is an Overseas Territory it isn't part of the UK as defined by the United Nations.
2. If the EU has an article clearly accepting that Gibraltar is a British territory then it matters not what.. Spain gets no say in what happens with Gibraltar... in the same way that the UK gets no say in what any Spanish territories do.

Incidently.... I find it odd that there have been many months of gnashing of teeth over the NI border.... how comes only now does anyone mention the Gibraltar border? Just another case of remainers clutching at straws to frustrate Brexit perhaps?

Exactly. Gibraltar is just one of many random differences at the moment, and always has been. It's no different to other peculiar exceptions other EU members have.

 

[AM9]

What on earth has St Maarten got to do with anything? Nobody who isn't Dutch or an airport geek has ever heard of the place. ...

I've spent 2 weeks there on holiday, very nice and relatively free from the worst type of British tourists.

 

[EM2]

Nobody is about to spill any blood over leaving the EU, what a ridiculous, and insulting, thing to suggest.

You've forgotten Jo Cox then.

 

[HH]

Oh give over. The whole premise of an EU army is yet another reason to leave, not to stay in to fail to stop it happening.

Why? Is it this mysterious sovereignty thing? I tried buying a pound of it in the market, but nobody was selling.

 

[HH]

Yes they could wear army surplus, maybe they could be called the Home Guard?

The head of the Mogglodytes admires Captain Mainwairing, so it seems very likely.

 

[furnessvale]

Why? Is it this mysterious sovereignty thing? I tried buying a pound of it in the market, but nobody was selling.

Exactly! For Brexiters, it isn't for sale.

Apparently for remainers, it joins their grannies on the market stall if it means they can fly on holiday once a year without having to show a (blue) passport.

 

[HH]

Nobody is about to spill any blood over leaving the EU, what a ridiculous, and insulting, thing to suggest.

Have you ever visited the border area in Ireland?

 

[HH]

Exactly! For Brexiters, it isn't for sale.

Apparently for remainers, it joins their grannies on the market stall if it means they can fly on holiday once a year without having to show a (blue) passport.

Remainers haven't been able to find this mysterious, yet clearly precious (to Leavers), substance. Meanwhile Leavers are selling their children at the market...