EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[furnessvale]

The creation of an EU Army would be such a significant change that, at the very least, an opt out would have to be provided for states who did not want to provide troops. It would be similar to the Euro in that respect: states would be encouraged (probably very strongly) but they would also be able to not engage.

Love the reference to the EURO given the statement not too long ago by one of unelected EU officials that all countries not using the Euro will be required to do so by, I think, 2025.

I also love the "very strongly encouraged" line! The EU seems to a good line in strong encouragement when it doesn't get its own way.

 

[Ianno87]

Love the reference to the EURO given the statement not too long ago by one of unelected EU officials that all countries not using the Euro will be required to do so by, I think, 2025.

I also love the "very strongly encouraged" line! The EU seems to a good line in strong encouragement when it doesn't get its own way.

So good that it granted the UK loads of opt-outs on a number of big issues....

Facts, good story, etc...

 

[furnessvale]

So good that it granted the UK loads of opt-outs on a number of big issues....

Which is why the EU was desparate to remove the veto so they didn't have to give any more opt outs.

Thanks Tony Bliar.

 

[birchesgreen]

The problem is European history shows that countries with large armies pulled from more than one nation have a habit of "strongly encouraging" other countries to join... {think Napoleon and Hitler }

Oh here we go Hitler again, why are you guys so obsessed with the Second World War?

 

[furnessvale]

Oh here we go Hitler again, why are you guys so obsessed with the Second World War?

George Santayana doesn't have to rule our lives but it is as well to bear in mind what he said.

 

[bramling]

Oh here we go Hitler again, why are you guys so obsessed with the Second World War?

Perhaps because it happened?

 

[dgl]

So brexiteers are stopping so low as to compare the EU to hitler???
Sickening comes to mind, remember the EU doesn't seek to kill loads of it's own people because of who they are or their beliefs, or go around invading countries just because it feels like it.

I'm sorry that some people think thy way, but we are where we are and I think that speaks volumes.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Oh here we go Hitler again, why are you guys so obsessed with the Second World War?

he who forgets history is doomed to repeat history....

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

So brexiteers are stopping so low as to compare the EU to hitler???
Sickening comes to mind, remember the EU doesn't seek to kill loads of it's own people because of who they are or their beliefs, or go around invading countries just because it feels like it.

I'm sorry that some people think thy way, but we are where we are and I think that speaks volumes.

I did not compare the EU to Hitler.. more remainer hyperbole lol... what I did do is compare the creation of an EU army {whose operation/ policy would naturally be dominated by the country that has most power/ largest home army, which -even Remainers admit is Germany} to the message from history... that when one European nation gains superior military might/ influence then the leaders of that country have had a habit of "strongly encouraging" other nations to join the "alliance".

To your point about the EU not having gone round invading countries and doesn't seek to... nor did Napoleon or Hitler when they first came to power.... it wasn't until they got their hands on a powerful army that they played their hand... just look at how many "good guys" have turned out to be baddies on the world stage over the last half century or so... Saddam Hussein, Gadaffi, Pinochet, the list goes on....

and yet remainers will still impersonate ostriches... ask yourself why certain European politicians are so keen to get their hands on a single currency, market, army etc... and why they want it all under the control of an unelected commission {with them preferably at the head}....

No I think I prefer to be ultra cautious and be suspicious of anyone that advocates 28 countries being subsumed into 1 entity....

 

[Ianno87]

Which is why the EU was desparate to remove the veto so they didn't have to give any more opt outs.

Thanks Tony Bliar.

But they didn't, is the important point you seem to be missing.

Contrary to belief amongst some, the UK does/did in fact have some quite considerable influence on EU proceedings.

 

[AlterEgo]

he who forgets history is doomed to repeat history....

Doesn’t help if you have a selective memory.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Doesn’t help if you have a selective memory.

nothing to do with selection of memory... and to show that it is a little known fact that Chamberlain's "Peace in our time" speech after Munich was purely to fool Hitler into believing that we had been duped... Chamberlain immediately set about preparing for war... also Churchill is as guilty as Hitler for the numbers killed during the Shoah... he had irrefutable proof of what was going on in the concentration camps and refused to bomb the infrastructure supplying them on the grounds that it would give away our secrets....

 

[fowler9]

Some good stuffing here today. We'll be forced to join an EU army, Napoleon, Hitler etc. Which side was project fear again? Leave it remain?

 

[birchesgreen]

The thing is, the rest of Europe have moved on from a conflict that ended 73 years ago its a shame some people here can't do the same. WW2 imagery is very common in the Brexiter message, though sometimes backfires a bit such as when Ukip used a photo of Polish Spitfires.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Some good stuffing here today. We'll be forced to join an EU army, Napoleon, Hitler etc. Which side was project fear again? Leave it remain?

well.. let me see if I can help you follow the argument... it's a simple one really... the EU wishes to set up a European army... people say it won't happen... but they also said that about many other joint projects... so what would that result in? a overlarge army... who will REALLY control that army? answer... the most powerful member of the EU.... and it doesn't matter what remainers say about all are equal {remember Cameron telling us we're all in it together... well we weren't all in it equally was we?} the most powerful nation in the EU is Germany.

As we can't predict the future we have to turn to history to see what happens when a single country becomes overpowerful... however that power has come about... therefore it is quite right to look at the lessons of history even if that means making comparisons to Napoleon or Hitler

 

[birchesgreen]

I doubt the EU Army will be overlarge or that capable, have you seen what EU members except the UK and France spend on defence?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

The thing is, the rest of Europe have moved on from a conflict that ended 73 years ago its a shame some people here can't do the same. WW2 imagery is very common in the Brexiter message, though sometimes backfires a bit such as when Ukip used a photo of Polish Spitfires.

actually, technically, the conflict only ended 28 yrs ago.

 

[507021]

I doubt the EU Army will be overlarge or that capable, have you seen what EU members except the UK and France spend on defence?

Just to add to that, the United Kingdom has one of the largest and most modern navies in Europe.

From 2020, we will be the only European nation to have more than one aircraft carrier.

actually, technically, the conflict only ended 28 yrs ago.

There is no "technically" about it, World War II ended in 1945. That is a fact.

 

[fowler9]

well.. let me see if I can help you follow the argument... it's a simple one really... the EU wishes to set up a European army... people say it won't happen... but they also said that about many other joint projects... so what would that result in? a overlarge army... who will REALLY control that army? answer... the most powerful member of the EU.... and it doesn't matter what remainers say about all are equal {remember Cameron telling us we're all in it together... well we weren't all in it equally was we?} the most powerful nation in the EU is Germany.

As we can't predict the future we have to turn to history to see what happens when a single country becomes overpowerful... however that power has come about... therefore it is quite right to look at the lessons of history even if that means making comparisons to Napoleon or Hitler

I would say it is a simplistic argument rather than a simple argument.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Just to add to that, the United Kingdom has the largest navy in Europe. From 2020, we will be the only European nation to have more than one aircraft carrier.

don't you mean half shares in most? and have they got the money for the aircraft to go with them yet?

There is no "technically" about it, World War II ended in 1945. That is a fact.

you are wrong... a conflict continues until the peace treaties are signed... this didn't happen until 1990 as part of the re-unification of Germany.... that is why the period 1945-1990 is called the cold war...

in reality WW2 had 3 phases: The Phoney War 1939-40 Combat phase 1940-45 then Cold war 1945-90. The war hadn't ended there was just a ceasefire

 

[EM2]

a overlarge army... who will REALLY control that army? answer... the most powerful member of the EU....

i) The EU will control that army
ii) In the 'precedent' that you're so keen to believe will come to pass again, Germany aggressively invaded those other countries. What would be the point in using an EU army to invade EU partners?

 

[507021]

don't you mean half shares in most? and have they got the money for the aircraft to go with them yet?

What are you on about? Those aircraft carriers were funded with UK taxpayers' money.

Yes. The first of the F-35Bs have commenced trials on Queen Elizabeth.

you are wrong... a conflict continues until the peace treaties are signed... this didn't happen until 1990 as part of the re-unification of Germany.... that is why the period 1945-1990 is called the cold war...

in reality WW2 had 3 phases: The Phoney War 1939-40 Combat phase 1940-45 then Cold war 1945-90. The war hadn't ended there was just a ceasefire

No, you are wrong. You're just arguing facts for the sake of it.

 

[EM2]

nor did Napoleon or Hitler when they first came to power.... it wasn't until they got their hands on a powerful army that they played their hand...

Hitler's base policy was an Aryan nation. That included Austria, the Sudetenland, and Poland. It was always going to be his policy once he'd gained power.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

i) The EU will control that army
ii) In the 'precedent' that you're so keen to believe will come to pass again, Germany aggressively invaded those other countries. What would be the point in using an EU army to invade EU partners?

what was the point of Russia "invading" Chechnya? oh yeah.. cos they wanted to cede from the union...

oh dear that's going to bring another load of vitriol on my head... I've dared to mention Russia

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

What are you on about? Those aircraft carriers were funded with UK taxpayers' money.

Yes. The first of the F-35Bs have commenced trials on Queen Elizabeth.

So what was all the fuss about us sharing our new aircraft carriers with France then?

No, you are wrong. You're just arguing facts for the sake of it.

lol I see... I'm wrong... but I'm arguing "facts" hmmm... well if I'm wrong they can't be facts can they? Seriously though... how about going and doing a bit of research and come back with some facts of your own instead of just saying "your wrong"

btw IIRC it was a fact mentioned on an episode of QI

 

[507021]

So what was all the fuss about us sharing our new aircraft carriers with France then?

The design of the cancelled French aircraft carrier was based on the Queen Elizabeth class.

lol I see... I'm wrong... but I'm arguing "facts" hmmm... well if I'm wrong they can't be facts can they? Seriously though... how about going and doing a bit of research and come back with some facts of your own instead of just saying "your wrong"

btw IIRC it was a fact mentioned on an episode of QI

It is a very widely known and accepted fact World War II ended in 1945.

You do realise QI is a comedy quiz show?

 

[birchesgreen]

We really are WAY through the looking glass now

 

[HH]

I have to LOL at this army nonsense - the very reason that the EU was set up was to AVOID another "world war".

Also I'm trying to work out why a European Army is worse than a German, Army, a French Army, a British Army, etc. etc. In my opinion the less countries that have armies the better.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

The design of the cancelled French aircraft carrier was based on the Queen Elizabeth class.



It is a very widely known and accepted fact World War II ended in 1945.

You do realise QI is a comedy quiz show?

yes I do realise that QI is a comedy quiz show. I am fully aware that it is a show based on facts.

Back to the war... you are aware that for a war to be over there has to be a peace treaty signed? and you are also aware that the US, UK, Russia France AND Germany had to sign said treaty? did that happen in 1945? no... it did not happen until after the re-unification of Germany in 1990... as there were no peace treaties signed the war was still technically in existence. And ok so there was little warfare in Europe but the US and Russia fought many proxy wars across the globe during the cold war.... so in fact the world war was still continuing on more than a technicality really

 

[birchesgreen]

Isn't the German Instrument of Surrender enough for you?