EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Senex]

As opposed to our current UK Government who have proposed a solution so amazing it's managed to unite both leave and remain camps in their disappointment. And what can we, as individual voters do to express our discontentment with our glorius leaders?Maybe write a stern letter, or meet our MP for tea.

Our government is no more accountable in their day-to-day activities than the EU. If they want to ban spoons we have no ability to express our disconsent / confusion until they next bless us with an election. And even then, we can only do so if an alternative party actually stands on a "we'll allow you to use spoons" platform, and are in a position to win with our FPTP system. If the opposition chooses to go with a "umm, spoons are useful, but we'd prefer sporks are made complusory" platform, we just end up in the nonsense situation we are now where 60+million people are being dictated to by less than 80 members of a extreme branch of the government's party.

The one thing that does seem to have been made horribly clear by the events and by the parties' conduct over the last two years is just how badly our political system is broken, and how FPTP delivers a set-up where there is no-one to act for the good of the whole state instead of just the benefits for their own party.

 

[EM2]

And what’s wrong with that? It’s part and parcel of being part of the United Kingdom, especially when making up only a very small proportion of it.

So it's not OK for a small part of the United Kingdom to hold up Brexit, because the rest of the UK apparently wants it.
But it is OK for a small part of the EU to disrupt the rest of it because they don't want to be in it any more, and to then be annoyed when the EU won't give them everything that they want.

 

[nidave]

They voted to give UK governments of whatever colour more control over UK matters. Far better than having rules dictated to us by the EU, an organisation largely unaccountable to its electorate.

You do know how the eu actually works don't you? ???

 

[nidave]

So it's not OK for a small part of the United Kingdom to hold up Brexit, because the rest of the UK apparently wants it.
But it is OK for a small part of the EU to disrupt the rest of it because they don't want to be in it any more, and to then be annoyed when the EU won't give them everything that they want.

Can you provide sources that a number of people don't want to be in the eu and are therefore disrupting the talks.

Considering that it's governments who can do that your suggesting that some governments don't want to be in the eu. Again a source please.

 

[Ianno87]

Can you provide sources that a number of people don't want to be in the eu and are therefore disrupting the talks.

Considering that it's governments who can do that your suggesting that some governments don't want to be in the eu. Again a source please.

The UK government (the UK still being a member of the EU at the time of typing) that are disrupting regular EU business by trying to leave the EU.

 

[EM2]

Can you provide sources that a number of people don't want to be in the eu and are therefore disrupting the talks.

Considering that it's governments who can do that your suggesting that some governments don't want to be in the eu. Again a source please.

My source is the referendum in the United Kingdom which resulted in a vote for the country to leave the European Union.
My point was that bramling had suggested that it was wrong for Northern Ireland to in effect be the fly in the ointment of the wishes of the UK, but not for the UK to do so to the EU.

 

[bramling]

My source is the referendum in the United Kingdom which resulted in a vote for the country to leave the European Union.
My point was that bramling had suggested that it was wrong for Northern Ireland to in effect be the fly in the ointment of the wishes of the UK, but not for the UK to do so to the EU.

There is a bit of a difference - one of these is a sovereign country, the other is a supranational political club - which allegedly isn’t aiming to be United States of Europe.

I love all this talk about Britain disrupting the EU. Nice to know we’re getting something for all those billions we pay in!

 

[EM2]

There is a bit of a difference - one of these is a sovereign country, the other is a supranational political club - which allegedly isn’t aiming to be United States of Europe.

Even if it is (which I have never believed), the UK is exempt from 'ever closer union' after Cameron's pre-referendum negotiations.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-factbox-idUKKCN0VS2SH

1. It is recognised that the United Kingdom, in the light of the specific situation it has under the Treaties, is not committed to further political integration into the European Union. The substance of this will be incorporated into the Treaties at the time of their next revision in accordance with the relevant provisions of the Treaties and the respective constitutional requirements of the Member States, so as to make it clear that the references to ever closer union do not apply to the United Kingdom.

The references in the Treaties and their preambles to the process of creating an ever closer union among the peoples of Europe do not offer a legal basis for extending the scope of any provision of the Treaties or of EU secondary legislation. They should not be used either to support an extensive interpretation of the competences of the Union or of the powers of its institutions as set out in the Treaties.

These references do not alter the limits of Union competence governed by the principle of conferral, or the use of Union competence governed by the principles of subsidiarity and proportionality. They do not require that further competences be conferred upon the European Union or that the European Union must exercise its existing competences, or that competences conferred on the Union could not be reduced and thereby returned to the Member States.

The competences conferred by the Member States on the Union can be modified, whether to increase or reduce them, only through a revision of the Treaties with the agreement of all Member States. The Treaties already contain specific provisions whereby some Member States are entitled not to take part in or are exempted from the application of certain provisions of Union law. The references to an ever closer union among the peoples are therefore compatible with different paths of integration being available for different Member States and do not compel all Member States to aim for a common destination.

The Treaties allow an evolution towards a deeper degree of integration among the Member States that share such a vision of their common future, without this applying to other Member States.

 

[3141]

I really find this whole notion of using Brexit as a bash at the Conservatives daft.

Yes the current government are not very competent. Labour haven’t exactly covered themselves in glory either - both before and after the referendum no one really knows what their Brexit position actually is. Perhaps this is because they are just as split as the Conservatives - their leadership seem broadly anti EU, their MPs are generally pro EU, and their electorate are generally anti EU outside London and pro EU in London. If Labour had shown a bit more backbone, instead of using Brexit as a means of bashing the opposition and cultivating a potential route for Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott and co to achieve power, perhaps their only hope of pulling that off, then perhaps it might have been possible to build more consensus on what should be a cross-party issue. It’s pretty shameful that instead we have to rely on the DUP just to do anything. Meanwhile we have a third party who effectively don’t recognise the referendum result yet have the nerve to allude to democracy in their name!

I’m rapidly coming to the conclusion that our political system is badly broken. No wonder the Brexit process is turning into a mess with these people running the show.

As you quoted my post #11531 I think (though I may have misunderstood) that you interpreted it as a bash at the Conservatives. It wasn't. It was statement of the situation as I see it. I think that the Conservatives have seriously damaged themselves over Brexit, and are unlikely to be able to form a government for many years. That's not a bash at Theresa May either. She made a big miscalculation in calling an election in 2017, but even without that she would still have major divisions within her party and would be finding it difficult to formulate an agreed policy on Brexit. The question of the Irish border would still be there as well, though not so crucially in political terms.

I agree with your comments on the Labour Party. Corbyn and co must be very glad that they aren't having to resolve the issues TM is grappling with - far easier to sit on the other side of the Commons and snipe, when the question of our future relationship with the EU is fundamental to our future, and ought to be under consideration as a cross-party issue, as you said. But that would still require the leaders of the two biggest parties to be prepared to agree to something that would cause a split among their own followers.

Does that mean that our political system is "broken"? It's worked while there has been a large area of general agreement in the centre, and the extremes have been relatively small and ineffectual. Brexit doesn't fit into that pattern - and it's not surprising that there are political consequences, which certainly aren't played out yet. "Broken" is a term that people very readily use these days when something should be working better. If enough people start saying the political system is broken they will pave the way for those who would who like to use the post-Brexit situation to advance some form of despotic government, for which they might get substantial support from people who are impatient and would vote for "change" without understanding its implications. Like voting Leave.

By the way, you referred to a "third party", but isn't that the fourth or even fifth party? The third party has about 35 MPs.

 

[3141]

Only 2 people I know have told me they voted Leave, both also told me their reason was to give them Tories a good kicking.

Perhaps, as they observe the Tories splintering, they'll be able to feel it turned out the way they hoped.

 

[bramling]

As you quoted my post #11531 I think (though I may have misunderstood) that you interpreted it as a bash at the Conservatives. It wasn't. It was statement of the situation as I see it. I think that the Conservatives have seriously damaged themselves over Brexit, and are unlikely to be able to form a government for many years. That's not a bash at Theresa May either. She made a big miscalculation in calling an election in 2017, but even without that she would still have major divisions within her party and would be finding it difficult to formulate an agreed policy on Brexit. The question of the Irish border would still be there as well, though not so crucially in political terms.

I agree with your comments on the Labour Party. Corbyn and co must be very glad that they aren't having to resolve the issues TM is grappling with - far easier to sit on the other side of the Commons and snipe, when the question of our future relationship with the EU is fundamental to our future, and ought to be under consideration as a cross-party issue, as you said. But that would still require the leaders of the two biggest parties to be prepared to agree to something that would cause a split among their own followers.

Does that mean that our political system is "broken"? It's worked while there has been a large area of general agreement in the centre, and the extremes have been relatively small and ineffectual. Brexit doesn't fit into that pattern - and it's not surprising that there are political consequences, which certainly aren't played out yet. "Broken" is a term that people very readily use these days when something should be working better. If enough people start saying the political system is broken they will pave the way for those who would who like to use the post-Brexit situation to advance some form of despotic government, for which they might get substantial support from people who are impatient and would vote for "change" without understanding its implications. Like voting Leave.

By the way, you referred to a "third party", but isn't that the fourth or even fifth party? The third party has about 35 MPs.

Some good points there, and I agree with much of the above. My point about Conservative bashing wasn’t a direct response to your post, but more directed at the general theme on this thread and in the wider world.

I think you’re right to be hesitant about the term broken. I see two big issues at present - firstly a big lack of talent in all the main parties, especially for leadership positions, and secondly there is an increasing mismatch between what the people want and what the political system seems able and/or willing to deliver. Both these difficulties are concerning for the future if they turn out to be more than just a short-term blip.

Point taken about the third party - perhaps I should have said third British party! Shows how times have changed in a short space of time, almost without people realising - I suspect I’m not alone in still subconsciously viewing the LibDems as being bigger than they now are.

 

[eotw]

Point taken about the third party - perhaps I should have said third British party! Shows how times have changed in a short space of time, almost without people realising - I suspect I’m not alone in still subconsciously viewing the LibDems as being bigger than they now are.

In seat terms SNP are larger but Lib Dems are still third on votes.

2017 Results
Party -> Votes(%) -> Seats
Con -> 13,636,684 (42.4%) -> 317
Lab -> 12,878,460 (40.0%) -> 262
SNP -> 977,569 (3%) -> 35
LibDem -> 2,371,910 (7.4%) -> 12
DUP -> 292,316 (0.9%) -> 10
SF -> 238,915 (0.7%) -> 7
Plaid Cymru -> 164,466 (0.5%) -> 4
Green -> 525,435(1.6%) -> 1

UKIP -> 594,068(1.8%) -> 0


From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_general_election,_2017

 

[EM2]

^^^
Interesting that you didn't mention the Green Party, who do actually have an MP.

 

[eotw]

^^^
Interesting that you didn't mention the Green Party, who do actually have an MP.

Oops, fixed.
Also added Plaid Cymru.
I included UKIP as they had the 5th highest vote count with no seats.

Just to be clear I am a Labour Party member who would never vote UKIP.

 

[nidave]

The UK government (the UK still being a member of the EU at the time of typing) that are disrupting regular EU business by trying to leave the EU.

OK so the UK wants to leave. Your implication was other countries were lining up to leave. If I misunderstood that I apologize if I am right I still need sources.

 

[Ianno87]

OK so the UK wants to leave. Your implication was other countries were lining up to leave. If I misunderstood that I apologize if I am right I still need sources.

I think the point being made (not by me!) was whether there is really a fundamental difference between it being OK that a small part of the EU (i.e. the UK) can be disruptive to the EU in wanting to leave, yet at the same time seemingly being OK for the UK to plough ahead whilst a small part of itself (i.e. NI and particularly the bit most affected by a hard border) [arguably] democratically objects and is ignored.

 

[nidave]

Got you... I think. It's all confusing sometimes who is being talked about as there is the eu and UK plus n. Ireland / Scotland and the rest of the UK.
It's like a Mandelbrot (you zoom in and you see basically the same things going on)

The whole thing is just one giant mess.

 

[Groningen]

That television message on Friday is by the Dutch media considered to be more for the homefront of the Conservative Party than for all the other 27 countries in the EU. So the UK wants to negotiate each country separately. It seems that Poland gives something in, but still hope also they stay strong.

 

[Clip]

Interesting to hear that the Labour party wont call for a referendum on leaving the EU again more for GE as they have said the people have spoken and want out.

 

[Howardh]

The next set of papers outlining what might happen in a no-deal senario are out (Sky news, Guardian etc) and a couple of points - which when us remoaners mentioned them weeks ago were brushed aside as scaremongering, fearmongering etc etc.....well your Brexit-delivering government admits that flights might not fly, in fact won't without an emergency deal, and UK coaches wouldn't necessarily be allowed on the continent.

If Brexit is some political nuance to many, then once it hits home that your government has thrown your hard-earned Mediterranean holiday away as it couldn't negotiate a deal then many minds may be focused in a different direction.

Of course this is the worst-case senario and shouldn't happen, but if the EU/UK can't get a deal then the EU will see the country turn against the sitting government whilst we wait for the UK to bow to the EU's demands to get us moving again. What a huge weapon the EU has.

Huge own-goal by the government by not coming up with a plan and then risking the country turning against them. Mind you, if we are blocked from flying (Eurostar??) we can always go to the European Courts to plead our case.

Oh, wait.....

 

[birchesgreen]

I don't think anyone will convince some folk that a no-deal exit is bad news, until it all goes Pete Tong then they'll be blaming all and sundry for things going wrong

 

[Ianno87]

The whole thing is just one giant mess.

On that I think we can all agree!

 

[northwichcat]

The next set of papers outlining what might happen in a no-deal senario are out (Sky news, Guardian etc) and a couple of points - which when us remoaners mentioned them weeks ago were brushed aside as scaremongering, fearmongering etc etc.....well your Brexit-delivering government admits that flights might not fly, in fact won't without an emergency deal, and UK coaches wouldn't necessarily be allowed on the continent.

If Brexit is some political nuance to many, then once it hits home that your government has thrown your hard-earned Mediterranean holiday away as it couldn't negotiate a deal then many minds may be focused in a different direction.

Of course this is the worst-case senario and shouldn't happen, but if the EU/UK can't get a deal then the EU will see the country turn against the sitting government whilst we wait for the UK to bow to the EU's demands to get us moving again. What a huge weapon the EU has.

Huge own-goal by the government by not coming up with a plan and then risking the country turning against them. Mind you, if we are blocked from flying (Eurostar??) we can always go to the European Courts to plead our case.

Oh, wait.....

Like I've said before the biggest concern is those who are expected to be in Europe on the day of Brexit and returning in the days following. Even when there was a volcanic ash cloud preventing any flights operating in Britain, some people were able to get back using ferries and Eurostar, a no deal Brexit with no agreement on international transport would be far worse. Fortunately, it's been reported President Macron is looking at options for keeping international transport in the event of a no deal Brexit.

Recently BBC reported on the technology used at the Estonia/Russia border (which could be used on the Irish border.) However, a civil servant confirmed that won't be possible by March 2019 as there wouldn't be enough time to do it.

 

[dosxuk]

I don't think anyone will convince some folk that a no-deal exit is bad news, until it all goes Pete Tong then they'll be blaming all and sundry for things going wrong

Mostly the Remainers for not believing hard enough. If we had all just closed our eyes, clicked our heels three times and chanted 'there's no place like blighty', the EU would have had to cave to all of our requests, and paid us for the priveledge of talking to us, don't-cha-know?

On a different note, I'm being confused by the Labour leaders plans for a second referendum - they don't want remain as an option, but they want all other options. But, by the time we could have this referendum, which is looking like it would be caused by a parliamentary rejection of a fudge-deal by Mrs May, aren't the options going to be pretty limited?

Britain is leaving the EU, which of these plans do you support?

[ ] No deal

Unless, of course, Labour have a fully planned, provisionally agreed, and acceptable to parliament deal already completed, but that they just don't want to share right now. Their leadership are still wanting an election to sort this out - but if there was, and they won outright, how do they think they're going to solve the impasse? Corbyn & co just seem to be doing their best to cling to power, without any though as to what's best for the country. Remind you of anyone else?

I really hope this is actually the biggest ever April fools and we'll all be laughing come midday on the 1st.

 

[Howardh]

Mostly the Remainers for not believing hard enough. If we had all just closed our eyes, clicked our heels three times and chanted 'there's no place like blighty', the EU would have had to cave to all of our requests, and paid us for the priveledge of talking to us, don't-cha-know?

On a different note, I'm being confused by the Labour leaders plans for a second referendum - they don't want remain as an option, but they want all other options. But, by the time we could have this referendum, which is looking like it would be caused by a parliamentary rejection of a fudge-deal by Mrs May, aren't the options going to be pretty limited?



Unless, of course, Labour have a fully planned, provisionally agreed, and acceptable to parliament deal already completed, but that they just don't want to share right now. Their leadership are still wanting an election to sort this out - but if there was, and they won outright, how do they think they're going to solve the impasse? Corbyn & co just seem to be doing their best to cling to power, without any though as to what's best for the country. Remind you of anyone else?

I really hope this is actually the biggest ever April fools and we'll all be laughing come midday on the 1st.

Labour must be in absolute panic that the Tories call a snap general election and Labour win.

 

[Basher]

The EU has to make it hard for the UK, if we were given everything on a plate then a number of other sceptical countries would want to follow us. My view is just let’s walk away from them. If they put 20% on British goods and services we should do the same to their goods. So we will not be able to fly into the EU, then EU will not be allowed to fly into our airspace. UP YOURS EUROPE get off our backs, roll-on March 2019

 

[mmh]

Interesting to hear that the Labour party wont call for a referendum on leaving the EU again more for GE as they have said the people have spoken and want out.

And that's quite correct. The only choice is which party do you want to be in power when we leave.

 

[mmh]

The EU has to make it hard for the UK, if we were given everything on a plate then a number of other sceptical countries would want to follow us. My view is just let’s walk away from them. If they put 20% on British goods and services we should do the same to their goods. So we will not be able to fly into the EU, then EU will not be allowed to fly into our airspace. UP YOURS EUROPE get off our backs, roll-on March 2019

Bluntly put, but that's exactly the situation. It has to be difficult, Britain must be punished and belittled to deter anyone else from daring the same.

It's new territory for the EU, it's managed to keep its bullying of members relatively unreported until now. This is far bigger, which is why it's being equally incompetent at it as we are at getting away from it.

 

[Clip]

The next set of papers outlining what might happen in a no-deal senario are out (Sky news, Guardian etc) and a couple of points - which when us remoaners mentioned them weeks ago were brushed aside as scaremongering, fearmongering etc etc.....well your Brexit-delivering government admits that flights might not fly, in fact won't without an emergency deal, and UK coaches wouldn't necessarily be allowed on the continent.

If Brexit is some political nuance to many, then once it hits home that your government has thrown your hard-earned Mediterranean holiday away as it couldn't negotiate a deal then many minds may be focused in a different direction.

Of course this is the worst-case senario and shouldn't happen, but if the EU/UK can't get a deal then the EU will see the country turn against the sitting government whilst we wait for the UK to bow to the EU's demands to get us moving again. What a huge weapon the EU has.

Huge own-goal by the government by not coming up with a plan and then risking the country turning against them. Mind you, if we are blocked from flying (Eurostar??) we can always go to the European Courts to plead our case.

Oh, wait.....

Who then, is stopping a deal of any sorts from happenning?

 

[birchesgreen]

It is difficult because it is difficult. Unravelling forty years of close integration in 2 years, especially when very little seems to have been done is not exactly easy is it?