EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[pt_mad]

And what benefit to me does that bring? Name 3 things please.

I get the impression the UK goverment are sure we will end up with no deal from the EU as we are going behind the EU's back now... how trustworthy does that make the UK in any future talks.
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...s-closest-ally-after-brexit-may-tells-cabinet

Whether it benefits you personally I have no idea, but people who voted for it presumably think it will benefit them to have voted that way.

Barnier seemed to indicate yesterday as featured on newsnight, that the EU are now optimistic that a deal will be done by November. Speculation was that this is on the basis in the Checkers deal. There is much doubt over whether Checkers will get through parliament, so changes to the proposal are going to be needed to get a majority in the house.
It seems the EU have delayed things as much as they could and even they look to be be realilising that it's now time they played ball otherwise they are going to cut their own noses off to make a point.

 

[nidave]

So what the **** is the point... who does it benefit other than the super rich who will get richer.

Not one person is able to give me three things which will make life better for the general population after we leave the EU that we didn't already have or could already do while in the EU.

 

[Domh245]

It seems the EU have delayed things as much as they could and even they look to be be realilising that it's now time they played ball otherwise they are going to cut their own noses off to make a point.

Oh the irony! Let's just remind ourselves what our Govt has done since Theresa came to power: Stalled for a bit, triggered article 50 with no plan in March 2017, pissed a few moths up the wall holding a general election, did nothing for a bit longer, and then finally released a plan in July 2018. Don't forget that we've only got til the end of the month to agree it so that it can be ratified...

http://www.brexitprogressbar.com/

 

[pt_mad]

So what the **** is the point... who does it benefit other than the super rich who will get richer.

Not one person is able to give me three things which will make life better for the general population after we leave the EU that we didn't already have or could already do while in the EU.

Well if free movement ends as has been said by government, and the immigration bill sets out a long term plan for managed migration rather than the old system of limitless EU migration, then perhaps the country will be able to plan for population growth. Rather than continuing to add a city the size of Nottingham each year and not knowing whether it will be the same, more or less the next year or the following 5.

Managed migration rather than unlimited EU migration would mean less of a demand for houses for example, and perhaps prices will go up 15 grand a year then rather than 20 grand a year they are currently, while wages rise a few hundred quid.

How would our kids ever have afforded homes while free movement continued? They're already living with their parents until 30 and and have to put off having a family even though their genetic clock doesn't wait.

And I know a major contributing factor to that was lack of house building. But we are where we are. And going forward we can either manage migration with the migration bill to sustainable levels, or continue with permanent free movement where we could build 200,000 houses in a year, but net migration might stand at 330,000 people per year (2016 levels) meaning that our house building can only just keep up with migration levels, nevermind trying to increase supply to get prices down for our kids.

If we want to get back to things being achievable and affordable, we need to increase supply and lower demand. That's just basic laws of economics it's not emotion.

 

[fowler9]

How will kids afford homes if prices only rise by £15k if wages aren't going up and they already can't afford them? I was dealing with endowment complaints in the entire build up to the crash and all I got told none stop every day by customers was how they got sold low cost endowments on the grounds that the house would be paid for and they could go on a cruise with the rest of the cash they made from effectively doing nothing. It was crystal clear to me years before the crash that it was unsustainable and afterwards bloody obvious to everyone. And yet still people are happy with house prices and rent going up when wages aren't. Someone has to loose in this game and no one seems willing to accept it. I don't understand the mentality. None of this was an EU caused problem.

 

[nidave]

So what the **** is the point... who does it benefit other than the super rich who will get richer.

Well if free movement ends as has been said by government, and the immigration bill sets out a long term plan for managed migration rather than the old system of limitless EU migration, then perhaps the country will be able to plan for population growth. Rather than continuing to add a city the size of Nottingham each year and not knowing whether it will be the same, more or less the next year or the following 5.

Managed migration rather than unlimited EU migration would mean less of a demand for houses for example, and perhaps prices will go up 15 grand a year then rather than 20 grand a year they are currently, while wages rise a few hundred quid.

How would our kids ever have afforded homes while free movement continued? They're already living with their parents until 30 and and have to put off having a family even though their genetic clock doesn't wait.

And I know a major contributing factor to that was lack of house building. But we are where we are. And going forward we can either manage migration with the migration bill to sustainable levels, or continue with permanent free movement where we could build 200,000 houses in a year, but net migration might stand at 330,000 people per year (2016 levels) meaning that our house building can only just keep up with migration levels, nevermind trying to increase supply to get prices down for our kids.

If we want to get back to things being achievable and affordable, we need to increase supply and lower demand. That's just basic laws of economics it's not emotion.

So its immigration - yet over 50% of immigration comes from non EU countries and that’s going to increase. The housing issue is not an immigration issue its a we wont build enough as it would reduce house prices therefore reduce GDP. Series are not an immigration issue as the NHS can bill EU countries for those visiting the UK yet chooses not to.

Most EU immigrants contribute more to the treasury then they receive in services. Its non EU immigrants who consume more resources (for want of a better word) then they give back. The chronic underfunding of the NHS, Police and local government is nothing to do with the EU its an Conservative ideology.


Look at the statistics of births from UK residents. I think you will find the birth rate for the UK is very low in middle to upper class households and even the birth rate for poorer familes (which historically supplied a lot of children) is falling and people are having children later in life. We have an ageing population - if you still want your state pension to be funded there is going to have to be people coming in at the bottom end of the system, working to pay for your pension.


So basically nothing you have said is a valid reason to leave the EU, in fact we are going to have to increase immigrants from places like india etc to make up the shortfall so NEXT!

Nothing you have said is the the fault of the EU - still waiting for the three things which will make life better for the general population after we leave the EU that we didn't already have or could already do while in the EU.

 

[bramling]

So its immigration - yet over 50% of immigration comes from non EU countries and that’s going to increase. The housing issue is not an immigration issue its a we wont build enough as it would reduce house prices therefore reduce GDP. Series are not an immigration issue as the NHS can bill EU countries for those visiting the UK yet chooses not to.

Whichever way one looks at it there is a major issue with housing, mainly in the London and south-east area, and with housing availability and price being determined by supply versus demand it’s hard to avoid the thought that hundreds of thousands of Europeans living in the London area aren’t contributing to a demand pull.

It’s all very well saying not enough houses are being built, but the London and south-east area is already crowded. One doesn’t have to travel far before seeing signs like “no new housing here”. Transport is overcrowded and we’re at the point where roads and railways are at capacity and there doesn’t seem to be money for improvements - hence unpopular fixes like smart motorways or trains optimised for standing.

 

[Howardh]

Whichever way one looks at it there is a major issue with housing, mainly in the London and south-east area, and with housing availability and price being determined by supply versus demand it’s hard to avoid the thought that hundreds of thousands of Europeans living in the London area aren’t contributing to a demand pull.

It’s all very well saying not enough houses are being built, but the London and south-east area is already crowded. One doesn’t have to travel far before seeing signs like “no new housing here”. Transport is overcrowded and we’re at the point where roads and railways are at capacity and there doesn’t seem to be money for improvements - hence unpopular fixes like smart motorways or trains optimised for standing.

It's fair enough - hard to argue against other than the EU's will simply be replaced by the rest opf the world (+EU's) so there will be no let up of the housing market - in fact it might be worse if Brits won't do the jobs immigrants do so we need more and more; and we continue to allow the rich chinese and Russians to buy in blocks which I think happens in London.

So that leaves only one alternative if the housing market is stuffed and transport overcrowded in the SE......come up here where the water's lovely!!! My semi has been valued for probate @ £300 - £350k, three beds, three lawns and a garage for two cars. If you have qualifications I'm sure you would get a job and your money could go a lot further! And when it's built you can use HS2 to het down to Larndan for your beloved Tottenham Palace's home games!!

Bring Parliament and Her Maj with you!!

 

[nidave]

Whichever way one looks at it there is a major issue with housing, mainly in the London and south-east area, and with housing availability and price being determined by supply versus demand it’s hard to avoid the thought that hundreds of thousands of Europeans living in the London area aren’t contributing to a demand pull.

It’s all very well saying not enough houses are being built, but the London and south-east area is already crowded. One doesn’t have to travel far before seeing signs like “no new housing here”. Transport is overcrowded and we’re at the point where roads and railways are at capacity and there doesn’t seem to be money for improvements - hence unpopular fixes like smart motorways or trains optimised for standing.

But thats not a fault of being a member of the EU - thats sucessive goverment policy - you are confusing seperate issues. Leaving the EU is NOT going to change that - plus as mentioned there will still need to be immigration and a we will still have a housing problem in the SE. So once again no one can give any benefit to the popualtion by leaving the EU that we cant already solve or is the fault of the uk.

Howwardh is correct, the water is far nicer up north as well, more space to play with, great people. Move north.

 

[bnm]

For the visually impaired. Posted is a cartoon from Matt in the Daily Telegraph. It shows a confused chap lookimg at a sign in a European Research Group (Rees Mogg's mob) building. The sign says:

IN CASE OF FIRE
Leave building.
Don't go that way.
Go a better way.
We don't know!

 

[Howardh]

Housing in the South East; as it happens...
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money...rice-divide-Theyre-60-London-41-parts-UK.html

Great house price divide: They're up 60% in London but down 41% in Northern Ireland since the financial crisis deepened a decade ago

From the table provided; Average house price London £476k, NW £159k.
Anyone who is a home owner in the SE could make a killing that Rees-Mogg could only dream of by moving up to the green and pleasant land. Use your freedom of movement so we can keep our freedom of movement!

 

[bnm]

Pictured below are the dynamic thrusting alternative to Theresa May.


That's Peter Bone doing his best impression of the Captain Jean Luc Picard *facepalm* meme.

Boris Johnson displaying the classic hand on cheek boredom gesture.

And Jacob Rees Mogg rubbing his eyes. A classic body language signal meaning "I see no evil". The gesture is the brain's attempt to block out deceit, doubt or lies that it sees, or to avoid having to look at the face of the person to whom he is telling a lie.

These people could be our future. Heaven help us.

 

[pt_mad]

So its immigration - yet over 50% of immigration comes from non EU countries and that’s going to increase. The housing issue is not an immigration issue its a we wont build enough as it would reduce house prices therefore reduce GDP. Series are not an immigration issue as the NHS can bill EU countries for those visiting the UK yet chooses not to.

Most EU immigrants contribute more to the treasury then they receive in services. Its non EU immigrants who consume more resources (for want of a better word) then they give back. The chronic underfunding of the NHS, Police and local government is nothing to do with the EU its an Conservative ideology.


Look at the statistics of births from UK residents. I think you will find the birth rate for the UK is very low in middle to upper class households and even the birth rate for poorer familes (which historically supplied a lot of children) is falling and people are having children later in life. We have an ageing population - if you still want your state pension to be funded there is going to have to be people coming in at the bottom end of the system, working to pay for your pension.


So basically nothing you have said is a valid reason to leave the EU, in fact we are going to have to increase immigrants from places like india etc to make up the shortfall so NEXT!

Nothing you have said is the the fault of the EU - still waiting for the three things which will make life better for the general population after we leave the EU that we didn't already have or could already do while in the EU.

You're totally right, the housing problem wasnt caused by the EU. But it was a symptom of the problem. In that if you add 330000 people to the population every year for years leading up to 2016, and you dont build an extra city the size of Nottingham every year, just to keep up, you have nowhere for people to live. Fact unfortunately. And that is only going to put prices up further, faster.

Question: How many houses do we need to build if we keep permanent fee movement? 300,000 a year? 500,000 a year? More? Nobody knows, because with open boarders you cannot control the numbers, and how can we plan then?
Note we were told by politicians that when Romania and Bulgaria gained access to free movement that it wouldn't be likely they'd come to the UK. So presumably we didn't plan for it....

If you have a housing shortage and 28 year olds still have to live with parents, and move their boyfriends and girlfriends in with them, is it sensible to have open borders to everyone from the EU? Where will they live? In the limited sky high homes that are available, possiblly in larger groups to keeps rents down? And where will youngsters find affordable homes?

 

[pt_mad]

It's fair enough - hard to argue against other than the EU's will simply be replaced by the rest opf the world (+EU's) so there will be no let up of the housing market - in fact it might be worse if Brits won't do the jobs immigrants do so we need more and more; and we continue to allow the rich chinese and Russians to buy in blocks which I think happens in London.

So that leaves only one alternative if the housing market is stuffed and transport overcrowded in the SE......come up here where the water's lovely!!! My semi has been valued for probate @ £300 - £350k, three beds, three lawns and a garage for two cars. If you have qualifications I'm sure you would get a job and your money could go a lot further! And when it's built you can use HS2 to het down to Larndan for your beloved Tottenham Palace's home games!!

Bring Parliament and Her Maj with you!!

The jobs issue is another total can of worms. I think the opinion of a lot of leave voters is that an influx of unskilled EU migrants may have pushed wages down, because employers have so much labour to choose from they can pay badly, offer poor conditions, no security, and can fire and replace people at will who dont work fast enough or complain.
Again logic says if these employers, such as huge warehouses employing mainly EU nationals, if they had to hire UK labour, they'd have to improve pay and conditions to attract workers and to keep them in the job .And they'd need to keep them, unlike today where they can fire someone and get another person off the agency again tomorrow for minimum wage.
We managed to run businesses before 2004 you know. And in my experience employment conditions were certainly better before then .the power lies more with the employer now.

But thats not a fault of being a member of the EU - thats sucessive goverment policy - you are confusing seperate issues. Leaving the EU is NOT going to change that - plus as mentioned there will still need to be immigration and a we will still have a housing problem in the SE. So once again no one can give any benefit to the popualtion by leaving the EU that we cant already solve or is the fault of the uk.

Howwardh is correct, the water is far nicer up north as well, more space to play with, great people. Move north.

We can debate again and again that it was the fault of government housing policy. But the fact remains we've added 3 million EU nationals to the population which need homes we didn't have, and prices have rocketed that much further than they would have done without. We either limit the numbers to sustainable levels, like Australia do (and it's totally accepted) or accept that we have to offer a slice of the pie to every EU national if they wish to come, but we'll have to accept the country will be much much fuller and we may not be able to have the living standards our parents and grandparents had ever again.

If people are happy with millions of unskilled jobs occupied by EU nationals and the housing shortage continues for decades, where we have to have families of 6 in 3 bedroom homes until age 35, like the 1920s, then that's fine. But the country appear to have rejected free movement.

 

[nidave]

How many people from the UK have moved to the EU - so is your 3 million just one way?
1.2 million from the UK live in the EU. The largest communities are in Spain – 309,000, Ireland – 255,000, France – 185,000 and Germany – 103,000.

Net its 1.8 Million into the UK - far less than in aggrigate than the 3 million.
What do you do with the estimated 227,000 a year from Non EU countries - Do we not have the same issues with these lot? Why have we not tried to reduce non Eu immigration which is doable and still have benefits of being in the EU.

Its been said many time EU immigrints make a positive contrubition to the treasury where as (in general) non eu immigrants consume more than they give back . So Once again why are we focusing on the EU when they are not the issue. We already have the ability to takle non eu immigration but we dont - I wonder why?

Again your point does not make things better for the general population in that leaving the EU does not allow us to reduce immigration from Non EU countries and have a bigger impact on the points you have raised without all the downsides of leaving.

 

[Howardh]

How many people from the UK have moved to the EU - so is your 3 million just one way?
1.2 million from the UK live in the EU. The largest communities are in Spain – 309,000, Ireland – 255,000, France – 185,000 and Germany – 103,000.

Must be pointed out that if the situation r/e ex-pats abroad becomes untenable, whether it be the restrictions they COULD face, increased costs of medical insurance, not having their full pension or whatever reason we haven't thought of (even just concern) then they could well return, adding to the housing problems and if elderly will require NHS treatment, and if not working then they will require benefits on return.
Yet another Brexit concequence they hadn't thought of - despite being told.
And we wouldn't have any control over them!

 

[pt_mad]

How many people from the UK have moved to the EU - so is your 3 million just one way?
1.2 million from the UK live in the EU. The largest communities are in Spain – 309,000, Ireland – 255,000, France – 185,000 and Germany – 103,000.

Net its 1.8 Million into the UK - far less than in aggrigate than the 3 million.
What do you do with the estimated 227,000 a year from Non EU countries - Do we not have the same issues with these lot? Why have we not tried to reduce non Eu immigration which is doable and still have benefits of being in the EU.

Its been said many time EU immigrints make a positive contrubition to the treasury where as (in general) non eu immigrants consume more than they give back . So Once again why are we focusing on the EU when they are not the issue. We already have the ability to takle non eu immigration but we dont - I wonder why?

Again your point does not make things better for the general population in that leaving the EU does not allow us to reduce immigration from Non EU countries and have a bigger impact on the points you have raised without all the downsides of leaving.

Well net migration was averaging around 330,000 a year 2015 2016 levels and that's after having taken out people having left the country. So it's a city the size of Newcastle added per year, having already taken out the leave proportion.

We havent built a new city the size of Newcastle every year, so the citizens are presumably living in homes which were existing housing stock.

It seems people are still fighting the referendum here and have not accepted the leave vote. The decision was put into the hands of the people and the people voted to leave. So obviously 52 percent of people we pass in the street must have leave views even if they are keeping them to themselves.

 

[nidave]

Well net migration was averaging around 330,000 a year 2015 2016 levels and that's after having taken out people having left the country. So it's a city the size of Newcastle added per year, having already taken out the leave proportion.

We havent built a new city the size of Newcastle every year, so the citizens are presumably living in homes which were existing housing stock.

It seems people are still fighting the referendum here and have not accepted the leave vote. The decision was put into the hands of the people and the people voted to leave. So obviously 52 percent of people we pass in the street must have leave views even if they are keeping them to themselves.

So why has the UK government done bugger all about non EU migration which is an easy thing to tackle. Do you think, given successive governments lack of progress on non EU migration gives a hint to what's to come?

We're doomed: Defra's having a cow over its Brexit IT preparations
Department at high risk of failure in case of no deal

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/09/12/defras_it_systems_planned_for_brexit_and_not_beyond/

 

[Howardh]

Well net migration was averaging around 330,000 a year 2015 2016 levels and that's after having taken out people having left the country. So it's a city the size of Newcastle added per year, having already taken out the leave proportion.

We havent built a new city the size of Newcastle every year, so the citizens are presumably living in homes which were existing housing stock.

It seems people are still fighting the referendum here and have not accepted the leave vote. The decision was put into the hands of the people and the people voted to leave. So obviously 52 percent of people we pass in the street must have leave views even if they are keeping them to themselves.

Too right, as the concequences of that vote emerge daily.
Have you considered my post r/e ex-pats returning taking up housing stock; and as they may well be retired won't be contributing taxes and will be a strain on the NHS etc? As they aren't working we will need more immigrants as well to do those jobs our elderly population can't do.
Or is this yet another head-in-sand lalala problem that is simply scaremongering/project fear and will simply go away?
Eventually people will be so fed up of the concequences they will be demanding the government returns us, not even with a vote. Although that would probably not happen if the government came to a deal where we left in name only and could carry on; and these "scare" stories would evaporate, much like the border issue.

 

[Howardh]

So why has the UK government done bugger all about non EU migration which is an easy thing to tackle.

The government will want cheap and cheaper labour, and if it comes from the Phillipines rather than Poland then they will be happy. If we don't and wages go up, that puts pressure on prices = inflation = higher wage demands = higher prices etc etc.
If pickers want £20/hr to pick strawberries, they won't sell at that price in the shops if there are cheaper imports, therefore the farmers go under. Solution, import people who WILL pick them for minimum wage - which could be a fortune to them comparitavely speaking. Who will those people be? Well they won't be Brits.

 

[pt_mad]

The government will want cheap and cheaper labour, and if it comes from the Phillipines rather than Poland then they will be happy. If we don't and wages go up, that puts pressure on prices = inflation = higher wage demands = higher prices etc etc.
If pickers want £20/hr to pick strawberries, they won't sell at that price in the shops if there are cheaper imports, therefore the farmers go under. Solution, import people who WILL pick them for minimum wage - which could be a fortune to them comparitavely speaking. Who will those people be? Well they won't be Brits.

What did the UK pay warehouse workers before then? My dad was a pit worker and he bought his own house and managed to have a 40 percent deposit,back in the 70s. My mum never worked and they lived well.

 

[EM2]

What did the UK pay warehouse workers before then? My dad was a pit worker and be bought his own house and managed to have a 40 percent deposit,back in the 70s. My mum never worked and they lived well.

It's not the wages that are the problem, it's the house prices. What did your Dad pay for that house, and what is it worth now? What did a collier earn then, and what do they earn now?
As an example, there was a letter printed in the Metro (I think) not long ago:

[In 1965 I was a fireman earning £1,000 a year and I bought a house for £3,500 with a mortgage of three times my salary. Today that very ordinary property is valued at £650,000, so a buyer would need a £50,000 deposit and an income of £200,000 a year. This shows how utterly impossible the situation is for young people.]

 

[Geezertronic]

I don't care what your political allegiance is, but the actions of those outside Reece-Moggs house earlier was disgraceful. Targeting his kids outside his house, they are no better than Far Right or Far Left thugs

 

[LOL The Irony]

I can't believe the eu's actions today. All I'm saying is roll on the 29th of March.

 

[nidave]

I can't believe the eu's actions today. All I'm saying is roll on the 29th of March.

I love how a ever closer EU is totally unnacceptable but the UK is stronger in a union and better off together rather than the inevitable breakup of the UK.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I can't believe the eu's actions today. All I'm saying is roll on the 29th of March.

Are you talking about the "copyright law" that was passed? In which case, whilst you may disagree with the directive itself, it was voted through by MEP's. The same MEP's that are democratically elected.
I'd also like to see how UK MEP's voted, because I suspect they probably voted for it considering the general voting pattern of similar laws in the UK parliament.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Are you talking about the "copyright law" that was passed? In which case, whilst you may disagree with the directive itself, it was voted through by MEP's. The same MEP's that are democratically elected.

MEP's who voted it in and then when asked about their decision, didn't know why. Clueless goons.

 

[WelshBluebird]

MEP's who voted it in and then when asked about their decision, didn't know why. Clueless goons.

So more to do with the idiots that we (as an electorate) have voted in then than the EU itself.
Considering we have also voted a load of idiots into Westminster, I wonder how March will make it any better!

 

[LOL The Irony]

So more to do with the idiots that we (as an electorate) have voted in then than the EU itself.
Considering we have also voted a load of idiots into Westminster, I wonder how March will make it any better!

It probably won't. Despite all the hard Brexit scaremongering, it's pretty clear we'll just bend to the eu at the 11th hour.

 

[WelshBluebird]

It probably won't. Despite all the hard Brexit scaremongering, it's pretty clear we'll just bend to the eu at the 11th hour.

My point wasn't about the EU, it was about politicians who are just not good enough.
You complain about "clueless goon" MEP's voting through things. But we have the same with our MP's in Westminster.
So I am asking why our our "clueless goon" MP's any better than the elected "clueless goon" MEP's?

In terms of laws and directives that adversely affect things like the internet, we have a decent amount of them coming from the UK too! So leaving the EU isn't going to fix that!