EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[EM2]

You’re saying it’s unrealistic to expect to get things all one’s own way, which translates as us having little or no influence - which is one of the many aspects of the EU many of us find objectionable. So better off just not to be part of it.

Of course it is unrealistic. If 28 people are going out for a meal, and 27 want Chinese and 1 wants pizza, are they all going to change their mind for the benefit of the one? Of course not.
If you want something to change, you have to convince everyone else, with sensible, rational argument, that it's a better course of action, rather than throw your toys out of the pram and stomp off in a tantrum.

 

[Senex]

Of course it is unrealistic. If 28 people are going out for a meal, and 27 want Chinese and 1 wants pizza, are they all going to change their mind for the benefit of the one? Of course not.
If you want something to change, you have to convince everyone else, with sensible, rational argument, that it's a better course of action, rather than throw your toys out of the pram and stomp off in a tantrum.

But if the one is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, then it has the historic right to rule and the others should shut up and follow.

 

[nidave]

You’re saying it’s unrealistic to expect to get things all one’s own way, which translates as us having little or no influence - which is one of the many aspects of the EU many of us find objectionable. So better off just not to be part of it.

Voters being, or feeling, disconnected from the political system is generally regarded as being a bad thing as it leads to apathy, which benefits no one. It’s no use trying to make up for this by having subsidiarity if people feel “their” government is being hamstrung.

So you don't like the fact bills and laws put towards parlement can be rejected by the opposition (or even thier own party) and the house of Lords???

Sounds like you want a dictatorship. I hear north koria is nice this time of year

 

[AlterEgo]

But if the one is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, then it has the historic right to rule and the others should shut up and follow.

Nobody is suggesting that the UK governs anone but itself and its territories. That seems pretty reasonable.

 

[Puffing Devil]

For the record I did not vote Brexit in the end because I don't like the EU but the leave campaign was somewhat problematic.

I cast a blank ballot.

And with that, I refuse to entertain your pro-EU stance any more.

 

[HSTEd]

And with that, I refuse to entertain your pro-EU stance any more.

When did I display a pro EU stance?

 

[Jonny]

I think the Irish border issues are over-blown. I've heard it said - on the BBC News Channel no less - that dissident (violent) Irish Republicans are 'heavily infiltrated by the Security Services'. With ISIS and its affiliates on the wane, I can't see the Irish Republicans being a threat in the immediate future.

 

[Jonny]

Don't worry guys the Commonwealth will happily forget how we stiffed them in the 1970s and save our economy

I think they realise that 1.) They may had had issues themselves, 2.) Britain was screwed in many ways in the 1970s and the Economy was a stiff.

 

[Howardh]

I think they realise that 1.) They may had had issues themselves, 2.) Britain was screwed in many ways in the 1970s and the Economy was a stiff.

Keep reading about the economy, crashes, "never had it so good" "Pound in your pocket" etc.

When does everyone think we had it BEST? early 80's when it was "loadsamoney" and we started to speak into bricks? IIRC inflation was high then, but house prices low - we sold gran's 2 bed treeaced house for about £6k. Then we had Black Wednesday. Early 2000's when Blair was in charge, before the crash??

 

[Tetchytyke]

I think the Irish border issues are over-blown. I've heard it said - on the BBC News Channel no less - that dissident (violent) Irish Republicans are 'heavily infiltrated by the Security Services'.

It won't be the IRA you need to worry about when the majority of people in the North decide they would rather unite with Ireland than leave the EU. Even with the gerrymandering in the North, Sinn Fein almost won a majority at Stormont, which is why the DUP are blocking further elections there.

A unification referendum would be very very close as it is. Just wait until the border communities suffer financially after a no deal Brexit.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Nobody is suggesting that the UK governs anone but itself and its territories.

Plenty of people are suggesting we should leave the EU because we have to compromise within the union. I'm not sure how they expect to negotiate trade deals after Brexit without compromise.

@Senex is right to mock. I think it's people harking back to Empire.

 

[HSTEd]

It won't be the IRA you need to worry about when the majority of people in the North decide they would rather unite with Ireland than leave the EU. Even with the gerrymandering in the North, Sinn Fein almost won a majority at Stormont, which is why the DUP are blocking further elections there.

A unification referendum would be very very close as it is. Just wait until the border communities suffer financially after a no deal Brexit.

27 seats out of 90 is almost a majority? [2017 election]
And if there is gerrymandering, it favours the Republicans because they needed fewer seats to win votes than the Unionists.

If unification really is as inevitable as you claim(and I am not really sure I agree with this), then why the hell is the UK tying itself in knots to try and maintain the wealth of an area that will be departing from the union in the near future?

If the Republicans really want to rerun the troubles in reverse, let them.

 

[bramling]

Plenty of people are suggesting we should leave the EU because we have to compromise within the union. I'm not sure how they expect to negotiate trade deals after Brexit without compromise.

@Senex is right to mock. I think it's people harking back to Empire.

All this nonsense about empires makes me laugh.

No one is suggesting there wouldn’t be compromise - which is of course in contrast to the legendary EU inflexibility. However there is a fundamental diffence, namely that we’re not forced into something we really don’t want, always having the option to back out. The only way of doing so if we happen to clash with one of the EU’s red lines is Brexit.

 

[EM2]

All this nonsense about empires makes me laugh.

No one is suggesting there wouldn’t be compromise - which is of course in contrast to the legendary EU inflexibility.

So inflexible, that a number of member states already have opt-outs from various areas, with the UK having more than most.

 

[NSEFAN]

No one is suggesting there wouldn’t be compromise - which is of course in contrast to the legendary EU inflexibility. However there is a fundamental diffence, namely that we’re not forced into something we really don’t want, always having the option to back out. The only way of doing so if we happen to clash with one of the EU’s red lines is Brexit

When it comes to rules, the EU has to be fairly rigid in order to maintain commonality, as this is what really helps businesses be able to function across all the member states, and the more commonality the better as it reduces red tape over all. Clearly opt-outs are possible but in general you can't claim to be facilitating business and then allow member states to apply all sorts of bespoke/conflicting rules of their own which end up making trade harder. This is why we will likely have to play ball with most of the rules to have any sensible trade arrangement post Brexit.

 

[bramling]

So inflexible, that a number of member states already have opt-outs from various areas, with the UK having more than most.

Am I missing the UK’s opt-out on freedom of movement?

 

[EM2]

Am I missing the UK’s opt-out on freedom of movement?

Did I say in every area?

 

[nidave]

27 seats out of 90 is almost a majority? [2017 election]
And if there is gerrymandering, it favours the Republicans because they needed fewer seats to win votes than the Unionists.

If unification really is as inevitable as you claim(and I am not really sure I agree with this), then why the hell is the UK tying itself in knots to try and maintain the wealth of an area that will be departing from the union in the near future?

If the Republicans really want to rerun the troubles in reverse, let them.

The uk is screwing NI over - the hospital where I grew up the A&E is only open Mon-Fri 9-5pm - as are most A&E's in NI - you have to get an ambulance to one of a few key hospitals outside office hours. Everyone I talk to thinks westminister is going to throw NI to the dogs as soon as it can that is if the ROI wants to take it on - its a basket case - lots of benefit claimants and lots of people working for the council.

 

[nidave]

Am I missing the UK’s opt-out on freedom of movement?

Is that your focus - stopping the people from coming to the UK? How will you reconcile that with the fact most immigration is from non eu countries and that will increase

 

[Tetchytyke]

27 seats out of 90 is almost a majority? [2017 election]

Largest party leads the government. Sinn Fein got 27, DUP got 28. The SDLP got more than the UUP. It was close, very close, despite the gerrymandering.

Don't forget NI was pretty convincingly Remain.

Everyone I talk to thinks westminister is going to throw NI to the dogs as soon as it can that is if the ROI wants to take it on

Won't happen whilst the DUP prop up our strong and stable government. But when they outlive their usefulness, who knows.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Am I missing the UK’s opt-out on freedom of movement?

We pushed through the restrictions on A2 and A8 nationals, and pushed through tightened rules on how you can only claim benefits if you are economically active.

We might not have a full optout- that's a Community red line- but we weren't far short. No Schengen for us: us and the ROI are the only states exempt from it. Even the Swiss and other EFTA members- not in the EU, remember- had to accept Schengen.

 

[HSTEd]

Largest party leads the government. Sinn Fein got 27, DUP got 28. The SDLP got more than the UUP. It was close, very close, despite the gerrymandering.

Being the largest party is not the same as having a majority.
And there was no Gerrymandering.
The votes per seat for Sinn Fein and the DUP are within a few percent of each other, it is not a significant diffference (DUP got slightly more votes than Sinn Fein and slightly more seats)

Additionally SDLP got 95,958 votes
The UUP got 103,314 votes

So the UUP got more votes than the SDLP, if anything the system was unfair in favour of the SDLP.

Also remember that the Unionist Vote is split three ways and not two ways.

Don't forget NI was pretty convincingly Remain.

Voting remain does not equal a vote for Irish reunification?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Being the largest party is not the same as having a majority.

Largest party leads the government.

SDLP got more seats, which is what counts.

I never said a vote to Remain was a vote for unification. Just that not everyone in NI would choose to align with Britain if it knackers the open Irish border. I'd be amazed if many Remainers would jump aboard HMS Strong and Stable.

However, let's not be sidetracked here.

My point is that I'd not be blithely assuming that a) the Irish border is no big deal, b) that it'll just be a few dissident Irish republicans out with the pipe bombs when the ordure hits the fan or c) that the IRA are your biggest worry in Ireland after a no deal Brexit.

 

[AndrewE]

Am I missing the UK’s opt-out on freedom of movement?

If so, it's only because you have not been paying attention!
It has already been explained here that the freedom is actually of the movement of labour, and that the UK almost uniquely chose not to impose any restrictions on movement. I don't know whether the allowance of general movement could be tightened up if we stayed in... Be that as it may, we really need the labour, but have been so unwelcoming that our helpers have taken the hint.

 

[HSTEd]

Largest party leads the government.

That is not what you said

Even with the gerrymandering in the North, Sinn Fein almost won a majority at Stormont, which is why the DUP are blocking further elections there.

And there is not actually any evidence of gerrymandering in the elections.

SDLP got more seats, which is what counts.

DUP got more seats, and that is what counts.
And next time there will be serious unionist tactical voting, they won't bleed 20,000 votes to the likes of TUV

A unification referendum would be very very close as it is. Just wait until the border communities suffer financially after a no deal Brexit.

And given the polarisation, at this time the Unionists would likely still win.
Staying with the UK is less likely to lead to a resumption of civil war than Irish reunification.

Economic damage from Brexit is nothing compared to the economic damage caused by the Troubles. Or the economic damage from the loss of UK trade in NI.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Staying with the UK is less likely to lead to a resumption of civil war than Irish reunification.

I wouldn't be quite so sure about that. Not enough to be glibly arguing, as the original quote I raised did, that closing the Irish border is no big deal.

There's less polarisation than there used to be, the lines are split less cleanly.

But there is polarisation and other way there will be problems. Shut the border and some communities will be vociferously angry. Keep the open border but put a border in the Irish Sea betwen GB and the north and the others will be vociferously angry.

And there is not actually any evidence of gerrymandering in the elections.

Ulster has been one big gerrymandered state ever since it was created. The gerrymandering is historic and embedded in northern politics.

 

[Puffing Devil]

When did I display a pro EU stance?

Apologies - I've been on too many planes..... I should have said Anti-EU stance.

Though you still didn't vote one way or the other and you're still posting on this thread when you never had the courage of your convictions when the time came to really make a difference?

 

[HSTEd]

I wouldn't be quite so sure about that. Not enough to be glibly arguing, as the original quote I raised did, that closing the Irish border is no big deal.

It is a big deal, but nowhere near as big a deal at Irish reunification would be.
The remnants of the IRA might take up arms if the border closes.
The remnants of the UDA and UDF will certainly take up arms if reunification occurs, and the Irish Army will not eb able to commit thirty thousand men to try and hold it down.

There's less polarisation than there used to be, the lines are split less cleanly.

And catholics are far more likely to be unionists than protestants are to be republicans (I looked this up recently, the relative reduction of polarisation favours Unionism). Although NI is still easily the most polarised part of the UK because the dire economic conditions in NI distill out most of the more moderate people either to the Republic or GB.

Ulster has been one big gerrymandered state ever since it was created. The gerrymandering is historic and embedded in northern politics.

And yet seats effectively match votes?
The Gerrymandering is largely gone and has been gone for 20 years.

Apologies - I've been on too many planes..... I should have said Anti-EU stance.

Though you still didn't vote one way or the other and you're still posting on this thread when you never had the courage of your convictions when the time came to really make a difference?

Because courage is hard, and because I was expecting a massive remain win.

 

[Tetchytyke]

It is a big deal, but nowhere near as big a deal at Irish reunification would be.
The remnants of the IRA might take up arms if the border closes.

The IRA would be the least of the north's worries if thar border closes. The two states are deeply embedded alresdy- despite it being a fragile peace- and it's the political consequences of people losing that freedom that will be the problem. The economic ties are increasingly towards Dublin not London.

 

[HSTEd]

The IRA would be the least of the north's worries if thar border closes. The two states are deeply embedded alresdy- despite it being a fragile peace- and it's the political consequences of people losing that freedom that will be the problem. The economic ties are increasingly towards Dublin not London.

There is increasing integration, but the balance is still enormously in favour of the UK

(and this is why I keep talking about an Irish Sea crossing, integration with GB has to be increased to save the Union)