EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Bromley boy]

M

I've threatened to report, and actually reported, precisely one post in the last few months. Which presumably the moderators agreed was offensive - it was removed. That's one. Singular. In the more distant past I can use one hand to count the reports I've made. Slow I'd say. But then I would be slow, what with being confused and lacking intellectual rigour.

I take offence at those who are unable to state an opinion without also denigrating the person with whom they are engaging. When it happens I will point it out. Be it directed at myself or another forum member. It lowers the tone of debate and demonstrates perfectly intellectual laziness (argumentum ad hominem), going for the cheap shot rather than the reasoned rebuttal.

Ok.

Any chance of a nuanced and reasoned response to my above posts?

I’ll read it tomorrow (but suspect I won’t get one).

 

[bnm]

Any chance of a nuanced and reasoned response to my above posts?

Long answer:
You want me to give difference responses to the replies I've made over the last few hours? What on earth for? Except to suggest the replies I've already made lack nuance and reason.

Short answer:
No.

 

[nidave]

Well then we've misunderstood each other.
Use very very low yield government bonds (index linked bonds show negative real yields) to purchase long lived infrastructure that will substantially improve the quality of life of the british people.

Tidal barrages, nuclear power plants, high speed rail lines and other long lived, heavy infrastructure.

Whats stopping this from happening - HINT its NOT the EU.. it rhymes with pestminister

 

[nidave]

M


Ok.

Any chance of a nuanced and reasoned response to my above posts?

I’ll read it tomorrow (but suspect I won’t get one).

Says the person who is choosing which posts to reply to - hyprocrite much?

Like what control do you have over the deals made by the goverment with the DUP what laws do you have control over now and what laws are you going to control after we leave?

 

[bramling]

Says the person who is choosing which posts to reply to - hyprocrite much?

Like what control do you have over the deals made by the goverment with the DUP what laws do you have control over now and what laws are you going to control after we leave?

We can vote for a different party at the subsequent election, which will result in a different government if enough people do likewise. And no matter how much we may find the DUP distasteful, it’s worth remembering that NI is part of the union and the DUP were democratically elected by a constituent part of that union.

 

[AndrewE]

it’s worth remembering that NI is part of the union and the DUP were democratically elected by a constituent part of that union.

...and that they are from a part of the UK which voted heavily in favour of "Remain!"

 

[bramling]

The referendum result didn't largely change whether particular MPs were 'Remain' or 'Leave'. One or two may have changed allegiance since the result, but the numbers across the house in June 2016 show that 479 MPs were in the 'Remain' camp and 158 were for 'Leave'. 13 didn't declare a position before the referendum.

I think it's safe to work back from that and say that before dunderhead Cameron decided to abrogate any semblance of leadership, by resorting to letting the country fight it out rather than those elected to do the political stuff, the numbers would have been similar.

There was no "This referendum is a stupid idea" box to tick on the ballot, so I had only one way to protest at Cameron's idiocy. Vote leave.

At least I helped remove him from office. That was the only positive I could use to form my decision. Abstaining was not an option, I believe the right to vote is important. Even if referendums are an unnecessary blunt instrument in our representative democracy.

I have to live with that voting decision. But I shouldn't, and neither should the country, have even been asked. Leave or Remain should have been manifesto pledges. If that meant only UKIP were offering a Leave manifesto then so be it.

I don’t think it would have worked if the referendum offer went along party lines. You’re simply never going to get certain Labour or Conservative voters going against their normal allegiance just on the basis of a referendum offer. Likewise many people would not vote UKIP simply based on the lack of past government experience. This is part of the reason why it took unusually long for the political system to respond to something clearly desired by a large segment of the population.

It does seem a little perverse to vote leave simply to stick a finger up at Cameron. Whatever the rights or wrongs of Brexit, Cameron is firmly in the history books long before Brexit has even happened. I respect Cameron for offering the referendum, it’s just a shame he didn’t take it seriously enough to make any provision at all for one possible result.

 

[HSTEd]

Whats stopping this from happening - HINT its NOT the EU.. it rhymes with pestminister

Except the EU will also not permit it as it would be a flagrant violation of state aid rules unless you nationalised electricity, which itself is forbidden by the Electricity Directive.

I have, ya know, thought my position through

 

[3141]

So Trump tells Theresa May, via an interview in the Sun, that her approach to Brexit is wrong and she won't get a trade deal with the USA. He also reckon Boris Johnson would make a great prime minister.

What was that about taking back control? Leave the EU the way Trump thinks we should, have the prime minister Trump thinks we should have. Or no trade deal.

But what this really demonstrates is that we live in a world where, unless you are the USA or China, you depend to a greater or lesser extent on others, and you have to make arrangements in your economic interests which may reduce your freedom to do just whatever you like.

We have a choice between the EU, of which we're currently a member, which is generally orderly, and which as a member we can influence; or maybe a deal with a capricious, bad-mannered and obviously unreliable character like Trump. Not the fifty first state of the USA but a colony.

 

[cactustwirly]

Except the EU will also not permit it as it would be a flagrant violation of state aid rules unless you nationalised electricity, which itself is forbidden by the Electricity Directive.

I have, ya know, thought my position through

Rubbish!
Austria was able to invest in hydroelectricty.
The UK Government is investing in a huge Nuclear plant at Hinkley Point.

 

[northwichcat]

We can vote for a different party at the subsequent election, which will result in a different government if enough people do likewise. And no matter how much we may find the DUP distasteful, it’s worth remembering that NI is part of the union and the DUP were democratically elected by a constituent part of that union.

...and that they are from a part of the UK which voted heavily in favour of "Remain!"

The DUP are one of the two main parties representing Northern Ireland. The DUP are well aware Sinn Fein will not send their MPs to Westminster to swear allegiance to the Queen and without Stormont sitting part of Northern Ireland is unrepresented but the unrepresented part is mainly pro-Ireland, pro-EU so it's not in their interests to come to a power sharing arrangement for Stormont. Stormont not sitting also gives the DUP a convenient excuse to sweep issues they don't want to deal with under the carpet - they say abortion is an issue for Stormont, knowing full well Stormont can't deal with it when it's not sitting. It should be noted many of those in Northern Ireland vote DUP because they want to ensure NI remains as part of the UK, not because they are against abortions or believe in their other right wing policies.

 

[HSTEd]

Rubbish!
Austria was able to invest in hydroelectricty.
The UK Government is investing in a huge Nuclear plant at Hinkley Point.

The UK government is not investing in Hinckley Point, that's why the electricity will cost so much - its a collosal PFI.

In the Austrian case the capital will be lent at 'commercial' rates in the meaning of the state aid rules.

If Hinckley was actually being financed by the Government at cost, the electric price would be closer to £20/MWh han £90

 

[northwichcat]

So Trump tells Theresa May, via an interview in the Sun, that her approach to Brexit is wrong and she won't get a trade deal with the USA. He also reckon Boris Johnson would make a great prime minister.

What was that about taking back control? Leave the EU the way Trump thinks we should, have the prime minister Trump thinks we should have. Or no trade deal.

There is a reason Boris acquired the nickname 'Donald Trump Lite.'

Trump is highlighting one of the issues with leaving the EU in a more obvious way than Obama, Bush or Clinton would have done. The US not having a trading arrangement with any EU countries would be a big issue for the US, the US not having a trading arrangement with one country in Europe isn't so much an issue for the US, so the US will be less willing to compromise when discussing a trade deal with one country.

 

[northwichcat]

The UK government is not investing in Hinckley Point, that's why the electricity will cost so much - its a collosal PFI.

In the Austrian case the capital will be lent at 'commercial' rates in the meaning of the state aid rules.

If Hinckley was actually being financed by the Government at cost, the electric price would be closer to £20/MWh han £90

EDF Energy will build Hinckley Point. For those who don't realise EDF is short for Électricité de France and it's 85% owned by the French government. The fact that EDF will build Hinckley Point shows it's not the EU which is preventing a British state owned company building a power plant, it's the fact that the Conservatives put the UK energy market in private hands.

 

[HSTEd]

EDF Energy will build Hinckley Point. For those who don't realise EDF is short for Électricité de France and it's 85% owned by the French government. The fact that EDF will build Hinckley Point shows it's not the EU which is preventing a British state owned company building a power plant, it's the fact that the Conservatives put the UK energy market in private hands.

The state owning the plant would, by itself, achieve nothing.
The capital the state owned company would use to build the plant would have to be furnished at commercial rates otherwise you will fall foul of state aid rules

 

[Groningen]

I thought that Hinckley Point was built by China. The price of electricity will be more expensive than than now is the case? Well Boris Johnson and Donald Trump have kind of the same hair. That DT is more looking forward with a meeting with Boris Johnson than Theresa May is a bad sign for democracy. Of course maybe too harsh, but he sowing the chair of TM. In his statement Donald Trump about Brexit DT said that Ireland was also part of Brexit.

 

[AM9]

So Trump tells Theresa May, via an interview in the Sun, that her approach to Brexit is wrong and she won't get a trade deal with the USA. He also reckon Boris Johnson would make a great prime minister.

What was that about taking back control? Leave the EU the way Trump thinks we should, have the prime minister Trump thinks we should have. Or no trade deal.

But what this really demonstrates is that we live in a world where, unless you are the USA or China, you depend to a greater or lesser extent on others, and you have to make arrangements in your economic interests which may reduce your freedom to do just whatever you like.

We have a choice between the EU, of which we're currently a member, which is generally orderly, and which as a member we can influence; or maybe a deal with a capricious, bad-mannered and obviously unreliable character like Trump. Not the fifty first state of the USA but a colony.

Precisely, - some leaver pundits are portraying Trump's position as if we will be cut off from the USA because we might have a close relationship with the EU in the future. Of course, we have been dealing with the US under arrangements made between two near equal parties, i.e.:

US - pop. 323M GDP $18.57T
EU - pop. 512M GDO $16.49T​

If the UK asks for its own deal with the US, the balance of power looks slightly different:

US - pop. 323M GDP $18.57T
UK - pop. 65.6M GDO $2.6T​

The US likes deals with weaker partners, especially when led by Trump. We would be have virtually no power in negotiations with the US. In the past they have threatened such things a withholding spares for US civil aircraft bought by smaller countires. Are we prepared to risk half of our civil fleet at risk of being grounded?
The EU is different, they won't be pushed around by a bully, witness them hitting Harley Davidson in the recent trade restrictions.
Like it or not, we are not the world power that the Member for the 18th Century and his friends likes to pretend we are, - we are just another crowded country with a GDP a bit higher than California (a single state).

 

[nidave]

We can vote for a different party at the subsequent election, which will result in a different government if enough people do likewise. And no matter how much we may find the DUP distasteful, it’s worth remembering that NI is part of the union and the DUP were democratically elected by a constituent part of that union.

You are missing the point - I suspect deliberatly. You have no say in any law ever - in the EU or out of the EU you have no control over anything. You can make a vote to a party (or an MEP - but I bet you never voted in the europian elections) who then make the decisions. You have no say in anything.
Dont try and tell me about Northern Ireland - look at my name.

You dont freedom of movement yet your very silent on Turkey, Austrailia and India all demanding freedom of movement in return for a trade deal which you will have no control over the tems of those deals - so what benefit do you get from leaving the EU - Give me two examples.

 

[Bromley boy]

You are missing the point - I suspect deliberatly. You have no say in any law ever - in the EU or out of the EU you have no control over anything. You can make a vote to a party (or an MEP - but I bet you never voted in the europian elections) who then make the decisions. You have no say in anything.
Dont try and tell me about Northern Ireland - look at my name.

You dont freedom of movement yet your very silent on Turkey, Austrailia and India all demanding freedom of movement in return for a trade deal which you will have no control over the tems of those deals - so what benefit do you get from leaving the EU - Give me two examples.

What a bizarre rant. You evidently don’t understand what a democracy is.

The above question has been answered time and time again on here. If you cannot understand it that’s your issue.

 

[cactustwirly]

What a bizarre rant. You evidently don’t understand what a democracy is.

The above question has been answered time and time again on here. If you cannot understand it that’s your issue.

No he's right, if we were to trade with the EU we would have to accept their rules.
So surely it's more democratic if we were members of a club that allowed us to have some say in these rules.

Leaving the EU on paper gives us more "democracy", but in practice doesn't.

 

[Bromley boy]

No he's right, if we were to trade with the EU we would have to accept their rules.
So surely it's more democratic if we were members of a club that allowed us to have some say in these rules.

Leaving the EU on paper gives us more "democracy", but in practice doesn't.

The EU in its current form is way, way more than a trading agreement.

We will have to negotiate terms with the EU as with any other potential trading partner, that’s true. But that’s a fundamentally different thing from having the ECJ as our highest court of appeal and the European Commission initiating laws which directly affect our own citizens and institutions.

 

[Wivenswold]

Trump's trip to Europe is timed to stir up chaos. So I'm not sure why anyone is paying attention to what he's saying.

Look at the iterinary, all those chats with MPs then rounding off to spill the beans with his Bestie, Putin. Sometimes the truth is right in front of us and we simply deny it's there.

Putin wants to break up the EU and Nato. He's sent armies of operatives and has thousands more back home online promoting and funding far-right and far-left groups to provoke chaos within the populus and within governments. Trump, Farage, Johnson, Assange are all on board, all doing Putin's bidding. This is war, we've surrendered without a fight because we're too busy fighting among ourselves.

Everything you read and hear you have to understand in the context of these sham alt-right and alt-left groups doing everything they can to de-stable democracies as part of the "Alternative", "Non-linear" and/or "Cyber" War waged by Russia.

Go on, look it up on the internet. Just because it's not in the mainstream press, doesn't mean it's not happening.

Oh and why do the tabloids all want Brexit? Well, their owners are all domiciled away from the UK for tax purposes, new EU laws are coming in a day after we are due to leave the EU's jurisdiction. That is why Tory Backbenchers want it too. They've got too much wealth to lose. So when there's talk of alignment of laws/trade rules within the Brexit agreement, they panic because that might mean their tax dealings will be exposed and stopped on 1st April 2019. "Get on with it" suddenly sounds less like a demand and more the panicked shout of a desperate tax-avoiding beneficiary.

If you're not convinced by the above, fair enough, but that's exactly how it is. Take good care comrades.

Edit: Well just look at this from Boris just after his visit to Russian (after which he switched to the Leave Campaign) https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...of-being-an-apologist-for-putin-a7021296.html

 

[nidave]

What a bizarre rant. You evidently don’t understand what a democracy is.

The above question has been answered time and time again on here. If you cannot understand it that’s your issue.

So in other words you cant answer the question - you have no control over anything within the EU or without. Ok then thats what I suspected.

 

[Groningen]

Donald Trump is someone who sets a house on fire, puts it out with water and than says that nothing happened.

 

[Bromley boy]

So in other words you cant answer the question - you have no control over anything within the EU or without. Ok then thats what I suspected.

The answer is simply this: I wish to continue living in a self determining democracy. The “control” I have as an individual is voting in elections and referendums.

If you cannot understand how, in my view, membership of a union/superstate with the stated aim of “ever closer union” is incompatible with that then we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[Bromley boy]

Donald Trump is someone who sets a house on fire, puts it out with water and than says that nothing happened.

He’s also the elected head of state of the world’s most powerful military and economic superpower. I don’t particularly like him either, but that doesn’t change the facts.

 

[Bromley boy]

Trump's trip to Europe is timed to stir up chaos. So I'm not sure why anyone is paying attention to what he's saying.

Look at the iterinary, all those chats with MPs then rounding off to spill the beans with his Bestie, Putin. Sometimes the truth is right in front of us and we simply deny it's there.

Putin wants to break up the EU and Nato. He's sent armies of operatives and has thousands more back home online promoting and funding far-right and far-left groups to provoke chaos within the populus and within governments. Trump, Farage, Johnson, Assange are all on board, all doing Putin's bidding. This is war, we've surrendered without a fight because we're too busy fighting among ourselves.

Everything you read and hear you have to understand in the context of these sham alt-right and alt-left groups doing everything they can to de-stable democracies as part of the "Alternative", "Non-linear" and/or "Cyber" War waged by Russia.

Go on, look it up on the internet. Just because it's not in the mainstream press, doesn't mean it's not happening.

Oh and why do the tabloids all want Brexit? Well, their owners are all domiciled away from the UK for tax purposes, new EU laws are coming in a day after we are due to leave the EU's jurisdiction. That is why Tory Backbenchers want it too. They've got too much wealth to lose. So when there's talk of alignment of laws/trade rules within the Brexit agreement, they panic because that might mean their tax dealings will be exposed and stopped on 1st April 2019. "Get on with it" suddenly sounds less like a demand and more the panicked shout of a desperate tax-avoiding beneficiary.

If you're not convinced by the above, fair enough, but that's exactly how it is. Take good care comrades.

Edit: Well just look at this from Boris just after his visit to Russian (after which he switched to the Leave Campaign) https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...of-being-an-apologist-for-putin-a7021296.html

Never mind, soon we will have a 1970s marxist in control of the country (he’s also a leave voter). I’m sure things will be much better then.

 

[Groningen]

One goal of Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin visit/meeting in Helsinki is to have sanctions against Russia lifted, because of the Crimea. Donald Trump thinks it can stay in russian hands, because they speak Russian. Well in other former Sovjet Union states, they also speak Russian.

 

[bnm]

May I just point out that it is Hinkley Point. No c.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I wish to continue living in a self determining democracy. The “control” I have as an individual is voting in elections and referendums.

If you cannot understand how, in my view, membership of a union/superstate with the stated aim of “ever closer union” is incompatible with that then we will have to agree to disagree.

I'm genuinely curious why you believe those two positions have to be mutually exclusive?

Democracy works at all levels. I can choose my parish Councillor, my local Councillor, my Mayor, my MP, my MEP. Democracy works at a local level for local decisions and at a national level for national decisions. Why can't it work at a supranational level for supranational decisions?

The EU is a self-determining democracy, just as a supranational level. I genuinely don't understand why you think the supranational element means that it is not democratic. I'm curious what your thinking is.