EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[northwichcat]

It seems very odd to me that people can have lived in this country for so long with no evidence. It smacks of laziness/inattention of the individuals concerned.

The birth certificate I have only states my full name, gender, date of birth, district of birth and has a signature of the registrar. It only proves that my birth was registered in Britain not that I'm British. On a first passport application it is necessary to state both your parent's names and the date and place of their births alongside providing a birth certificate and getting a certified person to verify the photos you have submitted are of you. Once all that has been processed you can get a British passport which is proof that you are a British national. However, holding a passport issued by another country is not proof that you're not a British national. If you have dual nationality holding a passport issued by the country you live in may not always be the best option.

 

[Howardh]

To be continued...

I’m sure we are all off to watch the match shortly. I hope you guys in wales are cheering England on

I just hope everyone puts as much effort into cheering on England in the HOCKEY World Cup in London later this month!!

 

[bramling]

My comment related specifically to a Conservative no-deal exit which would be if the extreme right-wing of the party won over. An administration un-trammeled by either EU moderation or much change of losing power in the short term would carry out their 'bonfire of red tape' starting with working hours limits. Many of these laws would be locked into the books as soon as possible possibly in ways that would make it difficult to remove them.
The falling pound would put a natural upward pressure on essential commodity goods, (which forms the bulk of lower income group expenditure) whereas non-essential lifestyle and luxury goods would in some cases fall as there would be less competition to buy them. Similarly, restaurants and other leisure activities would be more accessible and in many cases cheaper. I'm sure that there wouls be quite a few (maybe some here) who would welcome their pound to go further even if it was at the expense of the poor.

This doom prophecy is all very well, but it relies on their being no effective domestic opposition, which even if we see Labour as being weak at present (which given the last election result and May’s current unpopularity is by no means a given) is unlikely to last long-term. The hard-right is still very much the minority of the Conservative party, and history should teach them that the votes lie in the centre ground.

 

[bramling]

"I’m happy to be poorer if it means the country is no longer being dictated to by the EU."

Please let us all in on the details of how the EU is a dictatorship against the UK.

Okay, please let us all in on how Britain could cease freedom of movement whilst being an EU member? Apart from leaving the club, of course!

Britain has been increasingly uncomfortable with its EU membership for years, a reluctant member at best. Most of the remain argument is based upon the idea that remaining is effectively the lesser of two evils rather than our membership being a wonderful asset for Britain. When something isn’t working, there comes a point where losses have to be cut. If public opinion hadn’t reached that point there would never have been a referendum let alone one where the leave option was chosen.

 

[AlterEgo]

But when the UK government fails to actually apply the law? Or when they act in a manor that is illegal under international law? Or when they simply take a turn for the worst and start acting like a far right racist monstrosity (like has been case with disability benefit and the Windrush cases recently)?

The Conservative Government have made seriously unethical decisions of late but they are not a far right racist monstrosity, nor have they acted like one.

 

[bramling]

The Conservative Government have made seriously unethical decisions of late but they are not a far right racist monstrosity, nor have they acted like one.

At least we have the option to vote out a PM or government we don’t like. We simply don’t have that option with the EU. I seem to remember the British government weren’t too keen on Juncker at the time.

 

[bnm]

Telegraph cartoonist nailed it.

 

[bnm]

At least we have the option to vote out a PM or government we don’t like. We simply don’t have that option with the EU.

Err, so what are we doing now after a national ballot?

 

[Howardh]

Telegraph cartoonist nailed it.

Very good...and that's from the Torygraph!

 

[bramling]

Err, so what are we doing now after a national ballot?

Leaving a club is rather different to voting out a government.

 

[nidave]

And these shadowy “other people” have their own agendas. What will happen if the EU starts dictating policies you don’t agree with?

I find it extraordinary and depressing that many posters on here attach so little importance to democratic self determination.

What rules do you have control over at the moment - can you choose when your bins are emptied? Can you Choose what tax you pay? Can you choose any rule?

Also
HMRC boss Jon Thompson admits there is a "systemic risk" for customs system in event of no deal because there are 145,000 to 200,000 businesses who currently don't do customs declarations. No deal would place an administrative burden of £17bn to £20bn on UK businesses

 

[nidave]

The civil service is accountable to parliament and to the electorate through them.



I’d rather not take the risk.



The possibility, however remote, of Turkey joining the EU and of an EU army are two excellent reasons to leave.

Turkey seeks free trade deal with Britain in exchange for freedom of movement
https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...eresa-May-free-trade-deal-UK-freedom-movement

So what will you do then???

 

[thejuggler]

Okay, please let us all in on how Britain could cease freedom of movement whilst being an EU member? Apart from leaving the club, of course!

The EU doesn't give Freedom of Movement, it gives freedom of movement of labour. That is enough to restrict movement of people to the UK.

Successive UK Governments have never wanted to implement policies to enforce the EU Freedom of a Movement Regulations. We get the Govt we vote for.

 

[Howardh]

Turkey seeks free trade deal with Britain in exchange for freedom of movement
https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...eresa-May-free-trade-deal-UK-freedom-movement

So what will you do then???

Oh I do hope that's the first deal after Brexit, just to see Farage's face!! But he'll be camped out on the other side of the globe by then.

 

[Puffing Devil]

The EU doesn't give Freedom of Movement, it gives freedom of movement of labour. That is enough to restrict movement of people to the UK.

Successive UK Governments have never wanted to implement policies to enforce the EU Freedom of a Movement Regulations. We get the Govt we vote for.

Exactly - there was good article that was published in the Independent that explains how the right to movement works and how, if only the government had invested in the proper systems, we could be expelling people.

 

[AlterEgo]

Exactly - there was good article that was published in the Independent that explains how the right to movement works and how, if only the government had invested in the proper systems, we could be expelling people.

A judicial review found it was illegal to deport homeless EU migrants a year or two ago didn’t it?

 

[AM9]

A judicial review found it was illegal to deport homeless EU migrants a year or two ago didn’t it?

The UK government brought that on themselves by not applying EU law that allows freedom of movement of labour. Instead they did nothing until a campaign to eject rough sleepers was introduced to meet immigration quotas and appease right-wing anti-immigrant groups.

 

[SteveP29]

You have my sympathies, that sounds like an awful situation.

It’s not about taking something away, it’s about saying the U.K. government (which we have the power to elect) should be the sole arbiter of law. It shouldn’t be necessary for you to have to “fall back” on the ECHR in the first place.

So if there's an effective law in position, which the UK government voted into UK law, why take it away?
I could see your point if it didn't work, but as the old saying goes, why fix something that ain't broke?

 

[northwichcat]

At least we have the option to vote out a PM or government we don’t like. We simply don’t have that option with the EU. I seem to remember the British government weren’t too keen on Juncker at the time.

Really? I seem to recall Theresa May lost her majority at the last election and required the help of a political party which no-one in England, Wales or Scotland voted for to keep her in 10 Downing Street. I also don't recall Conservative-Lib Dem coalition being on the ballot paper for the 2010 election.

On the other hand UKIP got the most votes at the last European elections and it wasn't the first time there were surprises with how Britain voted in European elections.

 

[Senex]

Really? I seem to recall Theresa May lost her majority at the last election and required the help of a political party which no-one in England, Wales or Scotland voted for to keep her in 10 Downing Street. I also don't recall Conservative-Lib Dem coalition being on the ballot paper for the 2010 election.

On the other hand UKIP got the most votes at the last European elections and it wasn't the first time there were surprises with how Britain voted in European elections.

Not just "required the help" of the Democratic Unionists, but without any reference to the electorates of England, Wales, and Scotland was able to buy the support of the anti-EU majority party in Northern Ireland when that province had voted in the referendum to stay in the EU. We can look at cancelled railway projects in England, amongst other things, and ask if there could have been money for them if massive political bribery had not been necessary. And the cess-pit that is Westminster is more democratic that the EU parliament?

 

[WelshBluebird]

To be continued...

I’m sure we are all off to watch the match shortly. I hope you guys in wales are cheering England on

Sadly not
Was a good game though, and I will say that I think that squad should have a bright future. They are young, driven, talented and without the egos and "me me me" of some past squads. As a Wales fan, I really don't want to play England in Euro 2020 (either qualifying or the actual tournament if we do qualify) and I suspect England may well be taken a bit more seriously by the other big teams now!

Okay, please let us all in on how Britain could cease freedom of movement whilst being an EU member? Apart from leaving the club, of course!

Freedom of movement in the EU is mainly freedom of movement for labour (there are a few other cases too, e.g. for education, or retirement if you can fully support yourself and your dependents). There are restrictions on freedom of movement that the UK has failed to implement, despite being able to. As such, any complaint about freedom of movement should surely look at those first. Sure it wouldn't cease it, but ceasing it totally would not be a good thing for this country as we rely on it for many low paid jobs that people in this country do not want to do, and add to that the fact we need an expanding population of young working people to sustain our every aging population.

The Conservative Government have made seriously unethical decisions of late but they are not a far right racist monstrosity, nor have they acted like one.

I didn't say they were, but I think they certainly have acted like one.
Deporting people who have the legal right to stay here, creating a "hostile environment" for people who do not have the legal right to stay here (ignoring the specifics of each case and directly leading to things like Windrush etc), knowingly pushing ahead with UC despite all the evidence against it (and including the "wait period" as part of it), the way the disabled and seriously ill have been treated regarding the "fit to work" tests, etc etc. And those are just the obvious ones I can type out without thinking.

 

[NSEFAN]

And the cess-pit that is Westminster is more democratic that the EU parliament?

But its a British cesspit, and that makes all the difference because apparently we can just vote it out next election. Now if only we could actually get round to it...

 

[northwichcat]

But its a British cesspit, and that makes all the difference because apparently we can just vote it out next election. Now if only we could actually get round to it...

Yet those of us in England can't do anything about the DUP anymore than we can do anything about the Christian Democrats which Germany have elected to put in the European parliament. I also wonder if the electorate in England were balloted on which is worse out of the Christian Democrats' approach to refugees* or the DUP being funded by paramilitary groups, seeing it as acceptable to ban abortions and endorsing the burning of the Irish Republic flag on 'Eleventh Night'** what the result would be.

* Something at least one Brexiteer on this thread has said was the wrong approach.
** Apparently Britain pays £100 to any organised group which forgoes this 'tradition.'

 

[Bromley boy]

Put it like this, international law is what enabled the Nuremberg trials, is what is used as a deterrent against humanitarian atrocities, etc etc. To suggest that it shouldn't exist because no national should be subjected to the "control" of anyone but its own governing structure is dangerous to say the least.

Except that it doesn’t really exist in any meaningful way - just look at the atrocities going on in North Korea and various other countries around the world. What is “international law” doing for those people?

Personally I do not want the U.K. to be governed by anyone other than the U.K. government. Why? Because I can see the danger inherent in hanging control over to an unelected bureaucracy with its own agenda.

But it doesn't. The people in power put their own interests first (e.g. - various MP's who happen to be landlords too voting against bills that would make renting out poor properties more difficult) or trample on others when it suits them (look at how disabled people are treated by this government if you need an example of why we need a higher body).

You are free to vote against the current government if you don’t agree with their policies. The solution should not be a “higher body” imposing its arbitrary rules on this country.

if you asked my parents, who were born here, for evidence they have lived here decades ago, I am sure they would struggle too!
People don't keep records from that long ago.

If they have bought property, travelled abroad, paid tax in that period, there will be records.

That is what a find a little strange about the windrusg cases.

But it isn't related to just the EU so isn't really relevant.

Huh? You do realise EASA is an organ of the EU and was established by EC legislation? It is very much an EU animal.

 

[northwichcat]

Except that it doesn’t really exist in any meaningful way - just look at the atrocities going on in North Korea and various other countries around the world. What is “international law” doing for those people?

Given your personal data is almost certainly on computers and servers outside the EU, do you not care how your data is handled outside the Britain? Or do you care about safety standards on flights if your flight operator isn't registered in Britain?

 

[Bromley boy]

As such, any complaint about freedom of movement should surely look at those first.

Yes the restrictions should have been imposed, but the fact they weren’t is no answer to criticism of freedom of movement as a concept. Why should anyone have an inalienable right to reside and work in a foreign country?

but ceasing it totally would not be a good thing for this country as we rely on it for many low paid jobs that people in this country do not want to do, and add to that the fact we need an expanding population of young working people to sustain our every aging population.

Immigration is beneficial and necessary, but it needs to be controlled. There’s no reason why the U.K. shouldn’t be able to control its own immigration and decide who is permitted to enter and who shouldn’t. Why on earth is it desirable for those decision to be made of us by the EU?

 

[radamfi]

Immigration is beneficial and necessary, but it needs to be controlled. There’s no reason why the U.K. shouldn’t be able to control its own immigration and decide who is permitted to enter and who shouldn’t. Why on earth is it desirable for those decision to be made of us by the EU?

If the UK blocks free movement from the EU then even if the UK allows controlled immigration from the EU, EU citizens will not be particularly interested in coming to the UK, because they have many other countries to choose from where they know they can stay as long as they like with no hassle. Therefore, the UK will be forced into taking in large numbers of immigrants from third world countries.

 

[Bromley boy]

Yet those of us in England can't do anything about the DUP anymore than we can do anything about the Christian Democrats which Germany have elected to put in the European parliament. I also wonder if the electorate in England were balloted on which is worse out of the Christian Democrats' approach to refugees* or the DUP being funded by paramilitary groups, seeing it as acceptable to ban abortions and endorsing the burning of the Irish Republic flag on 'Eleventh Night'** what the result would be.

* Something at least one Brexiteer on this thread has said was the wrong approach.
** Apparently Britain pays £100 to any organised group which forgoes this 'tradition.'

I don’t suppose the majority of U.K. voters have any particular interest in the DUP since it only affects one small part of the country.

On the other hand Angela Merkel’s approach to refugees (or, more accurately, economic migrants) can be seen to be disastrous, monumentally stupid and is now causing unbelievable tensions in Europe, including fuelling the rise of the far right.

Lest we forget the UK’s consignment of “child refugees” turned out to be military age males. At that point the policy lost all credibility.

 

[northwichcat]

I don’t suppose the majority of U.K. voters have any particular interest in the DUP since it only affects one small part of the country.

But it doesn't affect one small part of the country, the deal affects everyone in the UK. They are the ones who prevented the Conservative's plan A for Brexit going through but at the same time demanded large sums of money to be sent to Northern Ireland in exchange for their 'confidence and supply' arrangement. I wonder how many Britons have used the Athens Metro at some point (one the most controversial projects to get EU funding) and I wonder what benefit UK taxpayers see from groups of Northern Irish people being given free money in exchange for not burning a flag.

Lest we forget the UK’s consignment of “child refugees” turned out to be military age males. At that point the policy lost all credibility.

The age being? Many countries have sent children to fight in war so there's not information there so say whether any credibility was lost.

 

[dosxuk]

Why should anyone have an inalienable right to reside and work in a foreign country?

The EU doesn't grant that though.