EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Senex]

The UK isn’t a nation state. It comprises several nations.

So several distinct demoses, not one state one demos? There are times when the old DDR distinction between Staatsangehörigkeit and Nationalität really does become useful.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I know the freedom of movement rules have been tweaked a little recently, but it makes me wonder how much having freedom of movement (ie immigration) swayed people to vote leave; but if, in future, the EU relented to some degree and from that point those voters would then be happy to still be in?

So in other words, we have left something which, down the line, could become more acceptable to the majority by changing policies yet we are outside? The EU is a movable object and within it we had some say in that movement, when we are out will the door still be open to rejoin if the EU drifts towards our way of thinking?

Of course, there are already (and were already) restrictions that could be put on freedom of movement (saying that people have to be self supporting and if they aren't out you go, saying that migrants from new EU countries cannot come for a period of some years), but the UK government never bothered to implement them (presumably so they can then blame FoM for failings that are actually the fault of many UK governments).

 

[Howardh]

Of course, there are already (and were already) restrictions that could be put on freedom of movement (saying that people have to be self supporting and if they aren't out you go, saying that migrants from new EU countries cannot come for a period of some years), but the UK government never bothered to implement them (presumably so they can then blame FoM for failings that are actually the fault of many UK governments).

Yes, I have read that they had the right to kick out thousands+ who were, to coin a phrase, "sponging" off the state. But didn't. I can only assume that, if we HAD that right, it wasn't done because nobody up top knew the rules, or they did but under penny-pinching austerity it was too costly and assumed they would go home of their own accord.
And they may have known but let them stay because they were working illegally, cheaply but getting jobs done. That, of course, is applicable to anyone here from anywhere and not just the EU, so will continue after we leave unless the government does what it didn't do when it could.

 

[muddythefish]

I’m afraid childish comments like this only highlight your own lack of knowledge/meaningful insight into the topic being discussed.

Is there any chance you could develop the above silly, meaningless, soundbites into reasoned statements worthy of discussion?

My 5-year-old understands it so why can't you ?

 

[muddythefish]

Alright, an irrelevance would be taking it to far. Just all this shared values and experience is a load of guff to me. The Daily Mail was going on yesterday that (In this case) English values were a sense of humour, generosity and being welcoming or at least something along those lines. It was utter gibberish. I've encountered those things in people all over the world. I've heard it said that Poles are really blunt, well the ones I am friends with aren't and I know lots of English people who are.

The Daily Mail only deals in stereotypes - its readership doesn't get nuances or abstract concepts.

On another note, the Mail editor, Paul Dacre and a loud arch-Brexiteer, is stepping down after 28 years.

 

[Bromley boy]

My 5-year-old understands it so why can't you ?

Another rude and silly post. Good to know your 5 year old understands it (I somehow doubt that!) but I note you haven’t yet contributed anything meaningful yourself.

You will note that most posters, on all sides, have contributed lengthy and thought provoking posts. Please can you write something that adds to the debate?

 

[muddythefish]

. ?

I'm sorry you didn't think the idea that the "elite" in Westminster rather than Brussels ought to be the focus of Leaver voters' ire wasn't "thought provoking" enough for you. It was the subject of an article in a prominent current affairs magazine recently but hadn't been mentioned on here.

Now, apart from picking silly fights like a true internet warrior, what exactly has been your contribution to the thread ?

 

[Bromley boy]

I'm sorry you didn't think the idea that the "elite" in Westminster rather than Brussels ought to be the focus of Leaver voters' ire wasn't "thought provoking" enough for you. It was the subject of an article in a prominent current affairs magazine recently but hadn't been mentioned on here.

The two positions you mention above are not mutually exclusive, and are largely unrelated. I’m a leave voter and I agree valid criticisms of Westminster have been made in this thread (I also note I’m not as slavishly uncritical of Westminster as many pro-remain posters are of the EU).

But my agreement that Westminster could be further reformed/improved has nothing to do with my suspicion of the EU which, when compared to Westminster, is far less accountable to the U.K. populace, far more removed and, above all, far less focussed on British interests.

If you’ve seen an article that interests you, how about linking to it, quoting from it and making a relevant comment?

Now, apart from picking silly fights like a true internet warrior, what exactly has been your contribution to the thread ?

I’ve made some reasonably lengthy posts and have attempted to engage in reasoned debate rather than just posting single sentence soundbites. That’s the point of an internet discussion forum, after all.

 

[muddythefish]

I’ve made some reasonably lengthy posts and have attempted to engage in reasoned debate rather than just posting single sentence soundbites. That’s the point of an internet discussion forum, after all.

Not necessarily. Points can often be made better in short, sharp sentences. This isn't an essay writing competition, it's a messageboard.

 

[Bromley boy]

Not necessarily. Points can often be made better in short, sharp sentences. This isn't an essay writing competition, it's a messageboard.

It’s not a message board, it’s a discussion forum.

I note you’ve not addressed my response to your substantive point.

 

[muddythefish]

It’s not a message board, it’s a discussion forum.

.

Discussions can be long....or preferably short, wherein points can be made succinctly and are easier to read without pompous, excess verbiage and rambling.

The below, for example, is a load of meaningless nonsense, complete with spelling mistake.

The two positions you mention above are not mutually exclusive, and are largely unrelated. I’m a leave voter and I agree valid criticisms of Westminster have been made in this thread (I also note I’m not as slavishly uncritical of Westminster as many pro-remain posters are of the EU).

But my agreement that Westminster could be further reformed/improved has nothing to do with my suspicion of the EU which, when compared to Westminster, is far less accountable to the U.K. populous, far more removed and, above all, far less focussed on British interests.

 

[Bromley boy]

Discussions can be long....or preferably short, wherein points can be made succinctly and are easier to read without pompous, excess verbiage and rambling.

The below, for example, is a load of meaningless nonsense, complete with spelling mistake.

Ah, but, in your own words:

The Daily Mail only deals in stereotypes - its readership doesn't get nuances or abstract concepts.

I think you’ll find nuanced matters and abstract concepts are rarely effectively dealt with by soundbites.

I’ve not had any trouble reading any of the postings on this thread. If you have struggled, perhaps in-depth discussion where points are developed, challenged and explored, is not your forte?

Back on topic, you’ve still made no reply to my earlier point. Perhaps you cannot.

 

[nlogax]

This is turning into one of those threads that could be easily and vastly improved by taking it to the pub and turning it into an actual face to face conversation. First round's on me.

 

[Bromley boy]

The below, for example, is a load of meaningless nonsense, complete with spelling mistake.

Ah, just as I thought, you’re clearly unable to respond meaningfully. If you think it’s nonsense, that’s fine, but you need to explain why?

On the subject of spelling mistakes:

I'm sorry you didn't think the idea that the "elite" in Westminster rather than Brussels ought to be the focus of Leaver voters'

What is a “Leaver” voter exactly? If you’re going to go down the pedantry road, best ensure you’re whiter than white yourself. Oops, I just dropped the ball and mixed a metaphor

This isn’t getting us (or the thread) anywhere. Let’s just leave it there.

 

[Bromley boy]

This is turning into one of those threads that could be easily and vastly improved by taking it to the pub and turning it into an actual face to face conversation. First round's on me.

Sounds good.

Mumsnet’s “Brexit Arms” perhaps?

 

[fowler9]

I reckon we are never going to agree so let's take it outside. Preferably to a nice beer garden with a bit of sunshine and discuss what we have in common. Ha ha. We are going to have to find something in common or our crowded country is going to get too cosy. What has happened is in the past. I would rather the referendum didn't happen or was done differently. I think rerunning it would be a constitutional nightmare. My hope is fore a soft exit and give people the option to go harder. Sadly for me we are never going to get back in to the EU without monetary union and loads of other stuff I didn't want despite being a remainer. Let's try and find what we have in common because we are stuck with each other now. Ha ha.

 

[Bromley boy]

I reckon we are never going to agree so let's take it outside. Preferably to a nice beer garden with a bit of sunshine and discuss what we have in common. Ha ha. We are going to have to find something in common or our crowded country is going to get too cosy. What has happened is in the past. I would rather the referendum didn't happen or was done differently. I think rerunning it would be a constitutional nightmare. My hope is fore a soft exit and give people the option to go harder. Sadly for me we are never going to get back in to the EU without monetary union and loads of other stuff I didn't want despite being a remainer. Let's try and find what we have in common because we are stuck with each other now. Ha ha.

I’m sure we all have trains, pedentary and beer in common!

I don’t go into these threads expecting to find agreement. I find that discussion makes me reflect on my own views and is overall stimulating and healthy.

I don’t find Brexit a divisive issue in my real life, despite most people I know being remain voters (including my mum, one of my siblings, my best mate), I enjoy talking about it with those who are politically inclined.

The key is not to take it personally.

 

[nlogax]

Crunch day today. David Davis seems to be out on a limb with this whole 'backstop' issue, reportedly utterly hacked off at the way No 10. is handling its Brexit stance. What else did he expect would happen? Will he resign...?

 

[fowler9]

I’m sure we all have trains, pedentary and beer in common!

I don’t go into these threads expecting to find agreement. I find that discussion makes me reflect on my own views and is overall stimulating and healthy.

I don’t find Brexit a divisive issue in my real life, despite most people I know being remain voters (including my mum, one of my siblings, my best mate), I enjoy talking about it with those who are politically inclined.

The key is not to take it personally.

Ha ha. Totally agree mate. I don't mind a bit of a debate. Never fallen out with any of my mates over it, never will. At the end of the day they are more important to me and the world isn't going to end.

 

[muddythefish]

“I’ve always said nobody ever pretended that this would be simple or easy,” David Davis told the House of Commons.

https://www.conservativehome.com/pl...0-a-brexit-economic-strategy-for-britain.html

"So be under no doubt: we can do deals with our trading partners, and we can do them quickly. I would expect the new Prime Minister on September 9th, 2016 to immediately trigger a large round of global trade deals with all our most favoured trade partners. I would expect that the negotiation phase of most of them to be concluded within between 12 and 24 months.

"So within two years, before the negotiation with the EU is likely to be complete, and therefore before anything material has changed, we can negotiate a free trade area massively larger than the EU. Trade deals with the US and China alone will give us a trade area almost twice the size of the EU, and of course we will also be seeking deals with Hong Kong, Canada, Australia, India, Japan, the UAE, Indonesia – and many others."

The question isn't why he hasn't resigned, but why this buffoon hasn't been sacked long before now.

 

[birchesgreen]

Davis won't resign, he has the limelight now and a nice big expense account

 

[muddythefish]

.....ah yes, Drunken Dave, chief Brexit cheerleader from the back of Wetherspoons. Odd really, resigning would have enabled him to take longer lunches and sleep his way through the afternoons on the backbenches.

 

[northwichcat]

Peter Bone appearing on the TV news didn't know what year it was - he said we've got another 2 years in the EU before we leave in 2019.

 

[NSEFAN]

The question isn't why he hasn't resigned, but why this buffoon hasn't been sacked long before now.

Nobody in their right mind would step in to replace him. The role of Brexit negotiator is utterly toxic.

 

[AM9]

... we can do deals with our trading partners, and we can do them quickly. ...

I think the only deals that 'our trading partners' are likely to agree quickly with us being that desperate for anything to cling to will be very bad deals (for us).

 

[EM2]

Let Trump Handle Brexit: An Explosive Leaked Recording Reveals Boris Johnson’s Private Views About Britain’s Foreign Policy
https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexspence...cording?utm_term=.hsmVRaaRM&bftwuk#.uanEPLLPO

BuzzFeed News has obtained an audio recording of a closed-door gathering at the Institute of Directors in London, where Johnson treated about 20 Tories to an extraordinarily unguarded and wide-ranging assessment of the UK’s foreign policy strategy – and his private thoughts about Brexit, Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin.
...
“I am increasingly admiring of Donald Trump,” Johnson said. “I have become more and more convinced that there is method in his madness.”

“Imagine Trump doing Brexit,” Johnson said. “He’d go in bloody hard… There’d be all sorts of breakdowns, all sorts of chaos. Everyone would think he’d gone mad. But actually you might get somewhere. It’s a very, very good thought.”
...
Brexit will happen, “and I think it will be irreversible,” Johnson said. But he added: “The risk is that it will not be the one we want.”

There’s a high chance of Britain ending up with an arrangement that violates many of the Brexiteers “red lines”, keeping it “locked in orbit around the EU, in the customs union and to a large extent still in the single market,” Johnson said. “So not really having full freedom on our trade policy, our tariff schedules, and not having freedom with our regulatory framework either.”

That outcome was being pushed particularly by the Treasury, which Johnson said was “basically the heart of Remain”. It would mean the UK had left the EU without taking back control over its own affairs.

Clarifying his own red lines, Johnson said he would be willing to accept staying close to the EU for longer than March 2019, when it formally leaves the EU, but will not budge when it comes to the final terms of the future relationship.

“I will be prepared to compromise over time, but I will not compromise over the destination,” the Foreign Secretary told the activists.

The Remainers in government are worried about the potential for short-term disruption after Brexit that they’re blind to the long-term benefits, Johnson said.

“What they don’t want is friction at the borders. They don’t want any disruption of the economy. So they’re sacrificing all the medium and long-term gains out of fear of short-term disruption. Do you see what I’m saying? The fear of short-term disruption has become so huge in people’s minds that they’ve turned into a quivering wreck.”

“They’re terrified of this nonsense,” Johnson said. “It’s mumbo jumbo.”

Johnson gave a scathing response to warnings of chaos because of delays at Britain’s borders, which have included a Treasury analysis saying that disruption at Dover could lead to shortages of food and medicines if the UK leaves without a deal.

There would be disruption, Johnson said. “Yeah, of course. There will be some bumps in the road.”

But the warnings had been overblown.

The “prophecies of doom” about disruption of customs are “pure millennium bug stuff,” Johnson said, referring to the hysteria about Y2K at the turn of the millenium.

“All the planes crashing from the sky. It’s absolute nonsense.”

“It’s the 21st century,” Johnson continued. “You know, when I was Mayor of London… I could tell where you all were just when you swiped your oyster card over a tube terminal, a tube gizmo. The idea that we can’t track movement of goods, it’s just nonsense.”

He added: “Unless you make the change, unless you have the guts to go for the independent policy, you’re never going to get the economic benefits of Brexit. You’ll never get the political benefits of Brexit.”

He said the debate about solutions to the Northern Irish border had been blown completely out of proportion.

“It’s so small and there are so few firms that actually use that border regularly, it’s just beyond belief that we’re allowing the tail to wag the dog in this way. We’re allowing the whole of our agenda to be dictated by this folly.”

Johnson said the technology-based customs solution favoured by the Brexiteers in cabinet — known as “maximum facilitation” — was viable.

“Concentrate on maximum facilitation,” Johnson said. “That’s what we want. Solve the technical problem. We can easily find a solution that allows us to have trade that is frictionless as possible… with our continental friends and partners while still be able to do free trade deals. It’s not beyond the wit of man.”

Johnson disagreed with a claim by the head of HMRC that “max fac” would cost the UK economy up to £20 billion, by adding additional border checks for businesses. “No we don’t think that’s realistic at all. It’s out by a factor of 10 or 20,” he said.

The European Commission is playing hardball in the negotiations to try to prove to the other 27 member states that it’s not worth trying to leave, Johnson told the activists.

“I think Theresa is going to go into a phase where we are much more combative with Brussels,” he said.

“You’ve got to face the fact there may now be a meltdown. OK? I don’t want anybody to panic during the meltdown. No panic. Pro bono publico, no bloody panic. It’s going to be all right in the end.”

 

[muddythefish]

Right from the beginning, the only Brexit policy has been that every move by the Conservatives is to ensure that they stay in power and that May, Davis, Fox, Johnson and Gove stay in their jobs ...........at any possible cost to the country and the economy.

 

[birchesgreen]

Its interesting that Johnson goes on about the Brexit fears being like the Y2K bug and thinks its overblown. The Y2K chaos never happened because of a huge effort by thousands of people to make sure the fears were never realised. Has such an effort gone into preparing for Brexit?

 

[WelshBluebird]

Does he seriously think that tracking all imports and exports, and ensuring that they comply with all regulations etc is as simple as tapping an Oyster card? (And I am sure those people who designed and implemented the Oyster system will heavily disagree with him about how "simple" it is!!).

 

[northwichcat]

.....ah yes, Drunken Dave, chief Brexit cheerleader from the back of Wetherspoons. Odd really, resigning would have enabled him to take longer lunches and sleep his way through the afternoons on the backbenches.

Don't worry he's trained to take out people who aren't fully behind (hard) Brexit

David Davis is ex SAS He’s trained to survive. He’s also trained to take people out. #Brexit

https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1004656199885836288