EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Howardh]

BBC correspondent was talking to Duncan Smith who thinks/assumes the payment is spread over 20+ years. Certainly won't be in one go, but we are paying a huge amount not to be in something - can't get my head round that. It's like me paying Yorkshire £200 a year not to be a member...(actually that's a good deal!). So if we are paying an amount close to our net contributions, I expect pretty much the same benefits/privileges as if we were full members anyway. If we end up having our goods stopped at customs, having to buy e-visas just to go on holiday, losing out EHIC and all the other stuff - not to mention the hard border in Ireland - then I don't think it's much of a deal. But if we can carry on as before, travel and trade seamlessly, then great.

 

[furnessvale]

Any evidence of that? There is no timetable for repaying the money. I suspect it will be much longer than 4 years. I still maintain it will be 30-40 years before we could ever say we no longer have any financial links or potential liabilities to the EU.

Perhaps I could have worded thing better.
The sum quoted is the equivalent of paying the current amount for a total of 4 years, 2 of which we are already committed to.
If that total sum is tapered so in 50 years time we are still paying the EU gbp20 per annum, I won't be losing any sleep over it.

 

[Howardh]

Perhaps I could have worded thing better.
The sum quoted is the equivalent of paying the current amount for a total of 4 years, 2 of which we are already committed to.
If that total sum is tapered so in 50 years time we are still paying the EU gbp20 per annum, I won't be losing any sleep over it.

Twenty quid a year? Here, I'll chip in, here's a fiver....
Now, where's our new wards, new schools, doubled police force, integrated public transport, HS2 (is that not ready yet? Come on, the vote was LAST YEAR....) C'mon, hurry up, we want what we voted for....

 

[furnessvale]

Twenty quid a year? Here, I'll chip in, here's a fiver....
Now, where's our new wards, new schools, doubled police force, integrated public transport, HS2 (is that not ready yet? Come on, the vote was LAST YEAR....) C'mon, hurry up, we want what we voted for....

I'll be rather tiresome and point out that we are still IN the EU and still paying the money to them, which they spend (sorry, waste) on their pet projects.
By the way, your list reads more like a Labour Party manifesto with all its uncosted promises.

 

[northwichcat]

I'll be rather tiresome and point out that we are still IN the EU and still paying the money to them

Due to what's happened this year (terrorist activities, huge fire, flooding etc.) we should be getting more back from the EU than we put in. However, the Conservatives don't seem to want to ask the EU for funding to help because they are more bothered about their negotiating position than the needs of people in Britain. Most of the MEPs being UKIP doesn't help either - they don't turn up most of the time and when they do it's to slag off others rather than to do anything for us.

 

[AlterEgo]

Most of the MEPs being UKIP doesn't help either - they don't turn up most of the time and when they do it's to slag off others rather than to do anything for us.

Indeed - if they really refuse to recognise the Parliament as having any kind of authority then they ought to abstain from taking their seats instead of turning up and acting like children.

 

[lejog]

I find it surprising that Conservative politicians thought they could get divorced without making any financial contribution to the wronged spouse.

Yep I don't seem to remember those MPs generously offering that Scotland could leave the Union without taking their share of the national debt at the time of the independence referendum.

 

[najaB]

Due to what's happened this year (terrorist activities, huge fire, flooding etc.) we should be getting more back from the EU than we put in.

While I don't disagree that the Government could be doing more to get EU funding, I don't think that the flooding has been significantly worse than other years, and if by (huge fire) you're referring to Grenfell - it was tragic but it was one building.

 

[northwichcat]

While I don't disagree that the Government could be doing more to get EU funding, I don't think that the flooding has been significantly worse than other years, and if by (huge fire) you're referring to Grenfell - it was tragic but it was one building.

What happened following that fire? A lot of other tower blocks around the country were tested and people were evicted from other tower blocks while work was done to remove cladding. Temporarily homing such a large number of people certainly isn't cheap, especially when the only place to put that many people is in to hotels.

In the North of England we've had a lot of rainfall in the past month and the point has been raised that flood defences which were promised following the more significant 2010 flooding haven't yet been built.

 

[najaB]

What happened following that fire? A lot of other tower blocks around the country were tested and people were evicted from other tower blocks while work was done to remove cladding. Temporarily homing such a large number of people certainly isn't cheap, especially when the only place to put that many people is in to hotels.

I agree that things after the fire were expensive but I didn't get that from your post.

In the North of England we've had a lot of rainfall in the past month and the point has been raised that flood defences which were promised following the more significant 2010 flooding haven't yet been built.

Again, true but that wasn't the message I got from your post which reads as if we've suffered serious flooding this year.

 

[northwichcat]

DUP trying to hold government to ransom over Brexit

DUP MP Sammy Wilson has warned that his party's deal to support the Conservative government could be jeopardised by the Brexit negotiations.

He said any attempt to "placate Dublin and the EU" could mean a withdrawal of DUP support at Westminster.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-42179387

What we need is a strong PM to do what's best and to say if the DUP don't like then the government can find better places to spend £1bn than on the DUP's pet projects.

 

[EM2]

... which they spend (sorry, waste) on their pet projects.

Such as?

 

[AlterEgo]

Tell the unionists to shove off again. They never learn that they get used and then dropped by London every single time. Nobody in Britain cares about you, fellas.

 

[dosxuk]

Tell the DUP to shove off, and the government collapses. Do what the DUP are demanding, and the government will collapse (due to it's incompatibility with reality).

Anyone for a new GE before Christmas?

 

[dgl]

Tell the DUP to shove off, and the government collapses. Do what the DUP are demanding, and the government will collapse (due to it's incompatibility with reality).

Anyone for a new GE before Christmas?

At the moment I'd rather the government collapses at the moment that she gives in to the DUP. esp. as the government at the moment is a con propped up by a "bribe" to the DUP. May has all the teeth of someone who has lived on sugar all their life.
Plus the current government couldn't get a good deal on black Friday let alone with the EU.

 

[Senex]

Owen Paterson in an interview on Radio 4 a few minutes ago arguing that Dublin should "work with us" to put pressure on the Commission to reach the Ireland border settlement that Britain wants. But why on earth should Ireland, firmly committed to staying in the EU, dream of helping to put pressure on its EU Commission to help solve the problem that Britain has created? Do people like Paterson still think there really ought to be a British Viceroy in Dublin Castle?

 

[AlterEgo]

Owen Paterson in an interview on Radio 4 a few minutes ago arguing that Dublin should "work with us" to put pressure on the Commission to reach the Ireland border settlement that Britain wants. But why on earth should Ireland, firmly committed to staying in the EU, dream of helping to put pressure on its EU Commission to help solve the problem that Britain has created? Do people like Paterson still think there really ought to be a British Viceroy in Dublin Castle?

It’s just a bit of madness going around. For the first time London is in a weaker position than Dublin and they don’t like it.

 

[Howardh]

It’s just a bit of madness going around. For the first time London is in a weaker position than Dublin and they don’t like it.

Rees-Mogg on the Daily Politics wants out of the Customs Union - in order to import cheap food and clothing for the *poor*.
OK, let me put this to him - (a) if we import cheap and nasty food for the poor, what will happen to those producing our own food and produce when they're undercut? BTW we already appear to import a countryload of cheap clothing etc from China, India and so on, so leaving th customs union changes nothing
(b) those cheap imports won't be allowed to cross the open border into Ireland and thus the EU. So you would need a hard border with customs checks.
Which brings us back to square one, however much you want Brexit, unless it's fluffy-soft it ain't gonna happen as nobody wants to reignite the Irish troubles. No-one sane, anyway.

 

[northwichcat]

OK, let me put this to him - (a) if we import cheap and nasty food for the poor, what will happen to those producing our own food and produce when they're undercut? BTW we already appear to import a countryload of cheap clothing etc from China, India and so on, so leaving th customs union changes nothing
(b) those cheap imports won't be allowed to cross the open border into Ireland and thus the EU. So you would need a hard border with customs checks.
Which brings us back to square one, however much you want Brexit, unless it's fluffy-soft it ain't gonna happen as nobody wants to reignite the Irish troubles. No-one sane, anyway.

I thought we already imported cheap food as well - sold in discount supermarkets. Given some discount supermarkets have started focusing on introducing premium range brands, perhaps existing supply already fully meets our demands? Importing more cheap food won't be any use for those who have just lost a weekly pay job and don't have enough money until they get a first Universal Credit payment and consequently have to rely on food banks.

Some of the cheap clothes imported in to the UK from the likes of China belong to by "UK & Ireland" divisions of multinational companies. If the Ireland supplies come via Britain then the cheap clothes may not end up being so cheap either in Britain or Ireland.

 

[furnessvale]

Rees-Mogg on the Daily Politics wants out of the Customs Union - in order to import cheap food and clothing for the *poor*.
OK, let me put this to him - (a) if we import cheap and nasty food for the poor, what will happen to those producing our own food and produce when they're undercut? BTW we already appear to import a countryload of cheap clothing etc from China, India and so on, so leaving th customs union changes nothing
(b) those cheap imports won't be allowed to cross the open border into Ireland and thus the EU. So you would need a hard border with customs checks.
Which brings us back to square one, however much you want Brexit, unless it's fluffy-soft it ain't gonna happen as nobody wants to reignite the Irish troubles. No-one sane, anyway.

So the EU would need a hard border, slightly different.

 

[Howardh]

So the EU would need a hard border, slightly different.

Yes, that would be "forced" on the Irish against their will, just as being forced out of the CTA is against their will. Could also be a WTO issue but my knowledge of that is limited. (anyone??) The money we are giving to the EU would help pay for it so it needn't come out of Dublin's bank account. But, of course, all this is down to the UK, if we weren't leaving - or at least if we leave hard, none of this upheaval needs doing. But as it's the Irish who will suffer based on the loss of the CTA - and they had no vote or say in it whatsoever. Hopefully May and her cronies will see sense and retreat from a hard Brexit. After all - U-turns are what this government does best, from May's "no election" to Boris's "go whistle...oh, hang on, £50bn, that's all right then"; so all hope isn't lost!

Especially if they get a few polite letters from Irish citizens on both sides who prefer to wear balaclavas.

Be an interesting couple of weeks. The EU didn't have to whistle long.....

 

[furnessvale]

Yes, that would be "forced" on the Irish against their will, just as being forced out of the CTA is against their will. Could also be a WTO issue but my knowledge of that is limited. (anyone??) The money we are giving to the EU would help pay for it so it needn't come out of Dublin's bank account. But, of course, all this is down to the UK, if we weren't leaving - or at least if we leave hard, none of this upheaval needs doing. But as it's the Irish who will suffer based on the loss of the CTA - and they had no vote or say in it whatsoever. Hopefully May and her cronies will see sense and retreat from a hard Brexit. After all - U-turns are what this government does best, from May's "no election" to Boris's "go whistle...oh, hang on, £50bn, that's all right then"; so all hope isn't lost!

Especially if they get a few polite letters from Irish citizens on both sides who prefer to wear balaclavas.

Be an interesting couple of weeks. The EU didn't have to whistle long.....

Interesting idea. The UK remains in the EU because of terrorist threats. That's one way of remainers getting their way but not one I would wish to be associated with.

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes, that would be "forced" on the Irish against their will, just as being forced out of the CTA is against their will. Could also be a WTO issue but my knowledge of that is limited. (anyone??) The money we are giving to the EU would help pay for it so it needn't come out of Dublin's bank account. But, of course, all this is down to the UK, if we weren't leaving - or at least if we leave hard, none of this upheaval needs doing. But as it's the Irish who will suffer based on the loss of the CTA - and they had no vote or say in it whatsoever. Hopefully May and her cronies will see sense and retreat from a hard Brexit. After all - U-turns are what this government does best, from May's "no election" to Boris's "go whistle...oh, hang on, £50bn, that's all right then"; so all hope isn't lost!

Especially if they get a few polite letters from Irish citizens on both sides who prefer to wear balaclavas.

Be an interesting couple of weeks. The EU didn't have to whistle long.....

No dissident group has any time for the Republic of Ireland, and groups on the republican side don’t accept the Republic of Ireland as the legitimate government of Ireland.

 

[northwichcat]

So the EU would need a hard border, slightly different.

The EU needs our co-operation to protect one of it's member state or alternatively requires a hard border so the Irish can do their own checks. They don't want terrorists from a non-EU country to walk straight in to a member state without any border checks, anymore than you want a group of Romanians coming over here and doing some house building.

 

[furnessvale]

The EU needs our co-operation to protect one of it's member state or alternatively requires a hard border so the Irish can do their own checks. They don't want terrorists from a non-EU country to walk straight in to a member state without any border checks, anymore than you want a group of Romanians coming over here and doing some house building.

I'm sure the EU will get our co-operation, despite the lack of anything in return from them.

 

[EM2]

I'm sure the EU will get our co-operation, despite the lack of anything in return from them.

They don't need to offer us anything at all. They do need to support one of their member states.

 

[AlterEgo]

They don't need to offer us anything at all. They do need to support one of their member states.

Exactly. They owe us nothing. We are leaving. That’s what people voted for.

 

[furnessvale]

They don't need to offer us anything at all. They do need to support one of their member states.

Fair enough. So they won't be too disappointed when we don't co-operate.

 

[dosxuk]

Fair enough. So they won't be too disappointed when we don't co-operate.

How do you imagine our first meeting with the EU discuss the trade deal - the one that we need - going in those circumstances?

To be fair, the same could be said for any trade meeting with any country - if we unanimously decide not to co-operate with things we've agreed to, who's going to want to do a deal with us?

 

[317 forever]

Of course, but Cameron was under threat from UKIP taking some of their seats, so as well as keeping his party quiet he also wanted to cling onto power. By the way, I like your inclusion of a Thatcher quote

The referendum had 3 purposes for the Conservatives including fending off the thread from UKIP in many of their seats. It was also to give them some short-term unity, and also to rubber-stamp the reforms David Cameron negotiated. The referendum was not intended as an invitation to leave the EU, which was not even a government proposal.