EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[northwichcat]

The idea of sharing a common interest rate is a complete and utter no as far as I am concerned.

Meanwhile, I see we're back to the typical remain attitude that everyone else is wrong / badly educated / badly informed (etc).

10 years ago you got 1.5 Euros in exchange for 1 GBP and it was a similar USD rate to GBP. The British recession caused the pound value to drop and it hasn't recovered since. Like I said when I was hearing about the state of the Greek, Spanish, Portuguese and Irish economies I thought it was a good job we didn't join the Euro. However, I've learned and I know better now.

Given you said 'pretty much everyone' while just over half of people voted Leave, you must have been including a large number of people who voted Remain in your statement, so if your statement is accurate then I'm saying people who voted both ways are poorly informed. Do you actually think before you post or do you just post a generic 'Remoaner' comment if someone says something you don't like?

 

[northwichcat]

Personally, I didn't vote to join in the first place, and didn't vote New Labour in 97, 01 or 05 either, so these misjudgements certainly aren't my fault!

So did you vote either Conservative or UKIP in any European election? If you want to blame people for the EU arrangement not taking us, the elected MEPs must take some flack as well.

 

[bramling]

So did you vote either Conservative or UKIP in any European election? If you want to blame people for the EU arrangement not taking us, the elected MEPs must take some flack as well.

I've never voted in any European election because I simply do not wish to participate in anything to do with the EU. A bit less junk coming through my letterbox going forward - these Brexit benefits just keep on coming!

 

[bramling]

10 years ago you got 1.5 Euros in exchange for 1 GBP and it was a similar USD rate to GBP. The British recession caused the pound value to drop and it hasn't recovered since. Like I said when I was hearing about the state of the Greek, Spanish, Portuguese and Irish economies I thought it was a good job we didn't join the Euro. However, I've learned and I know better now.

Given you said 'pretty much everyone' while just over half of people voted Leave, you must have been including a large number of people who voted Remain in your statement, so if your statement is accurate then I'm saying people who voted both ways are poorly informed. Do you actually think before you post or do you just post a generic 'Remoaner' comment if someone says something you don't like?

I was referring to the single currency not about EU membership. I'd struggle to find many people who think we should be in the Euro, even those who voted remain. Ability to utilise monetary policy is far more important than value of currency.

 

[NSEFAN]

I've never voted in any European election because I simply do not wish to participate in anything to do with the EU. A bit less junk coming through my letterbox going forward - these Brexit benefits just keep on coming!

Democracy can only work if you vote. If you don't take an interest then you can't be upset when it doesn't go the way you want.

 

[AlterEgo]

Democracy can only work if you vote. If you don't take an interest then you can't be upset when it doesn't go the way you want.

This is one of the greatest fallacies about democracy.

There are other ways to effect change than through voting for a representative. Voting is the tip of the iceberg. Most fundamental change has been effected by campaigning, community cohesion, violence, direct action, lobbying, and so on. Democracy isn't solely about voting; it is an overarching principle and not a 50%+1 tyranny. So, if people don't vote (quite often because they don't like any of the choices!), they still retain the option to complain. Because this isn't a tyranny where people forfeit their voice for failing to mark a paper.

Democracy does not only work in places where voting is mandatory!

 

[NSEFAN]

This is one of the greatest fallacies about democracy.

There are other ways to effect change than through voting for a representative. Voting is the tip of the iceberg. Most fundamental change has been effected by campaigning, community cohesion, violence, direct action, lobbying, and so on. Democracy isn't solely about voting; it is an overarching principle and not a 50%+1 tyranny. So, if people don't vote (quite often because they don't like any of the choices!), they still retain the option to complain. Because this isn't a tyranny where people forfeit their voice for failing to mark a paper.

Democracy does not only work in places where voting is mandatory!

I should perhaps in that case have phrased it as "Democracy only works if you engage with it". The poster in question had said that they "do not wish to participate in anything to do with the EU", which sounds to me like a refusal to engage at any level. Hence there's little ground for complaint when the EU does things they don't like. There's quite a big difference between complaining by writing to MPs/MEPs or organizing campaigns, and instead complaining on an online forum after the event.

 

[sk688]

I've never voted in any European election because I simply do not wish to participate in anything to do with the EU. A bit less junk coming through my letterbox going forward - these Brexit benefits just keep on coming!

So you’ll be happy to pay European roaming charges again for your phone , right
?

 

[bramling]

Democracy can only work if you vote. If you don't take an interest then you can't be upset when it doesn't go the way you want.

Agreed to an extent, although there are other ways of engaging besides voting. However, why would I wish to influence an organisation I do not want to be part of? Plus the EU parliament is a pretty weak institution compared to other EU institutions. Perhaps someone could provide an example of how I might influence the EU commission, for example? Meanwhile, David Cameron didn't manage to exert much influence when he went to Europe.

I did, however, vote Conservative in the 2015 British general election, which led to a certain referendum in which I voted leave - happily along with the majority of Britain. And no I haven't changed my mind, no one I know who voted leave has, and I also have a degree in economics and politics so I'm hardly uninformed nor uneducated!

 

[bramling]

So you’ll be happy to pay European roaming charges again for your phone , right
?

In all honesty, not bothered one way or other. Not a salient issue for me.

 

[Domh245]

which led to a certain referendum in which I voted leave - happily along with the majority of Britain.

*along with the majority of voters, only ~26% of the entire population voted to leave

 

[northwichcat]

I've never voted in any European election because I simply do not wish to participate in anything to do with the EU. A bit less junk coming through my letterbox going forward - these Brexit benefits just keep on coming!

So do you never travel to other EU countries? If you do then you are participating in something to do with the EU and if you don't vote then you don't have a right to complain about what our elected MEPs agreed to.

Don't forget Brexit caused an additional General Election.

 

[AlterEgo]

if you don't vote then you don't have a right to complain

Blimey, it's contagious. Of course you retain the right to complain if you don't vote.

 

[najaB]

Of course you retain the right to complain if you don't vote.

If we're planning a night out and I ask for suggestions from everyone then I'm perfectly justified in ignoring your complaint that we didn't go for a curry if you never suggested it. Same goes for politics.

 

[bramling]

If we're planning a night out and I ask for suggestions from everyone then I'm perfectly justified in ignoring your complaint that we didn't go for a curry if you never suggested it. Same goes for politics.

A "leave the EU" option on the EU elections ballot paper would have been nice. In fact, a "dissolve the EU completely" option would be even more attractive.

I understand and to some extent sympathise with the principle of the the point about participation, but in practice one can't expect people to vote for something they don't believe in. Likewise there are other ways of engaging or registering protest.

As I posted elsewhere, how do I influence the EU commission?

 

[AlterEgo]

If we're planning a night out and I ask for suggestions from everyone then I'm perfectly justified in ignoring your complaint that we didn't go for a curry if you never suggested it. Same goes for politics.

It really doesn't; that's very reductive.

Consider this: Every time a rail franchise is let, there's a consultation about the scope of that franchise. Everyone's allowed to contribute feedback. If I know about the consultation, but decide not to contribute (for whatever reason), am I not entitled to complain when the service is poor, when the timetable is recast unfavourably, when the new TOC enacts something of serious detriment to me? Of course I am!

Herbert Spencer wrote that in an election:

If I vote for a winning candidate, then I am understood to have consented to that candidate and thus cannot complain about the outcome. ("You voted for Brexit, it's your fault, you sort it out")

If I vote for a losing opposition candidate, then by taking part in an election, I understand that if my candidate loses, I have to abide by the consensus of the majority. ("You voted in the referendum, get over it, you lost, Brexit means Brexit")

If I don't vote at all, then I cannot complain, as I made no protest. ("Shut up")

All of these outcomes essentially result in the logic that whatever you do, you consent to the outcome.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

If we're planning a night out and I ask for suggestions from everyone then I'm perfectly justified in ignoring your complaint that we didn't go for a curry if you never suggested it. Same goes for politics.

However, if your dissenting friend disagreed with the outcome they could just sit it out and get on with their lives and their lack of agreement or subsequent participation, by and large, wouldn't affect them in perpetuity.

Politics isn't the same. At the last election I had a choice of Labour, Tory, Lib Dem or Green. I refuse outright to vote for any of those (the same applies for just about every other political party going in the UK) as I do not agree with them and subsequently will not give them my consent, endorsement or anything else. I wasn't going to be pleased or agree with the outcome whatever it was (Tory majority, Labour majority, hung parliament or whatever); so I sat it out, as I have done in every election.

By having a very niche set of political opinions and absolutely nobody who embodies or represents them to vote for; have I lost my right to complain? For me the lesser of two evils is still evil, and the enemy of my enemy is not my friend, so I don't buy into this 'least bad option' carry on.

 

[northwichcat]

Politics isn't the same. At the last election I had a choice of Labour, Tory, Lib Dem or Green. I refuse outright to vote for any of those (the same applies for just about every other political party going in the UK) as I do not agree with them

EU elections work differently. In the North West region at the last European election we had a choice of Labour, UKIP, Conservative, Lib Dem, Green, BNP, An Independence from Europe, English Democrat, Pirate, No2EU and Socialist Equality. So there's no excuse for saying things like "Labour aren't left wing enough but I don't like the Greens" as you also have the option of voting for the Socialist Equality Party. Likewise if you don't like the EU but also don't like UKIP there's other anti-EU options.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

EU elections work differently. In the North West region at the last European election we had a choice of Labour, UKIP, Conservative, Lib Dem, Green, BNP, An Independence from Europe, English Democrat, Pirate, No2EU and Socialist Equality. So there's no excuse for saying things like "Labour aren't left wing enough but I don't like the Greens" as you also have the option of voting for the Socialist Equality Party. Likewise if you don't like the EU but also don't like UKIP there's other anti-EU options.

I am aware of the varying nature of the European elections, my post was more to address the point in general that omitting to vote negates any right of complaint. That said mind, I would find it very difficult to pick something from the vast numbers who tend to partake in such elections: unless I agreed with pretty much every last word they said (and as I've already explained, that doesn't happen!) I would not feel comfortable personally endorsing that party / person.

 

[northwichcat]

Herbert Spencer wrote that in an election:

If I vote for a winning candidate, then I am understood to have consented to that candidate and thus cannot complain about the outcome. ("You voted for Brexit, it's your fault, you sort it out")

If I vote for a losing opposition candidate, then by taking part in an election, I understand that if my candidate loses, I have to abide by the consensus of the majority. ("You voted in the referendum, get over it, you lost, Brexit means Brexit")

If I don't vote at all, then I cannot complain, as I made no protest. ("Shut up")

All of these outcomes essentially result in the logic that whatever you do, you consent to the outcome.

You seem to be using Herbert Spencer's quote about an election to imply a referendum is the same.

An election is one where you choose a candidate/party to represent you for the next parliamentary term. A referendum is one which advises the elected government of the public's opinion on one particular long term issue e.g. the method of voting, being a member of the EU, Scotland being in the UK etc.

 

[northwichcat]

I am aware of the varying nature of the European elections, my post was more to address the point in general that omitting to vote negates any right of complaint. That said mind, I would find it very difficult to pick something from the vast numbers who tend to partake in such elections: unless I agreed with pretty much every last word they said (and as I've already explained, that doesn't happen!) I would not feel comfortable personally endorsing that party / person.

Perhaps you should think of a political party more like a phone or energy contract. You're going to have one of them so pick the one you'd be most happy with and then if they get in to government they may drop the least popular policies in their manifesto if there's enough pressure from the opposition or public.

 

[bramling]

EU elections work differently. In the North West region at the last European election we had a choice of Labour, UKIP, Conservative, Lib Dem, Green, BNP, An Independence from Europe, English Democrat, Pirate, No2EU and Socialist Equality. So there's no excuse for saying things like "Labour aren't left wing enough but I don't like the Greens" as you also have the option of voting for the Socialist Equality Party. Likewise if you don't like the EU but also don't like UKIP there's other anti-EU options.

I just don't see the value in voting for an anti-EU option. To me it's like the SNP MPs in Westminster - a bunch of disruptive schoolchildren with little influence or power.

 

[northwichcat]

In fact, a "dissolve the EU completely" option would be even more attractive.

That would require a EU wide vote. As one the least pro-EU nations in the EU around 52% of us voted to Leave, I'm not sure that option would get at least 50% of votes in Europe. It would be a very unattractive option to those who live in a small EU country and work in another - which is something which is uncommon with UK residents.

 

[bramling]

Perhaps you should think of a political party more like a phone or energy contract. You're going to have one of them so pick the one you'd be most happy with and then if they get in to government they may drop the least popular policies in their manifesto if there's enough pressure from the opposition or public.

With an energy company one kind of needs them to provide one's household with electricity or whatever - something most people would regard as an essential of life. The EU certainly isn't essential, not by any means at all. It's just a political club.

 

[northwichcat]

I just don't see the value in voting for an anti-EU option. To me it's like the SNP MPs in Westminster - a bunch of disruptive schoolchildren with little influence or power.

Remember the EU trade deal with Canada not going through first time because it wasn't backed by MEPs from one region of Belgium? It would be just as easy for a party like the SNP to get an amendment to a trade deal because the original deal could have a negative effect on Glasgow.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Perhaps you should think of a political party more like a phone or energy contract. You're going to have one of them so pick the one you'd be most happy with and then if they get in to government they may drop the least popular policies in their manifesto if there's enough pressure from the opposition or public.

However, my phone contract or utilities provider affects just myself and is something I fully bear the burden or gain from; my choice on who to vote for doesn't! (I'm straying into Non-Aggression Principle territory here.)

 

[AlterEgo]

You seem to be using Herbert Spencer's quote about an election to imply a referendum is the same.

An election is one where you choose a candidate/party to represent you for the next parliamentary term. A referendum is one which advises the elected government of the public's opinion on one particular long term issue e.g. the method of voting, being a member of the EU, Scotland being in the UK etc.

It is exactly the same principle and I made clear how I was linking it to the referendum. By voting in the referendum for Remain, Leavers tell me I was participating in a democratic exercise, the outcome of which should be respected. Likewise, if I didn't vote at all, both Remainers and Leavers would be telling me not to moan about it as I didn't not express my wishes. There are people who didn't vote in the Referendum because they felt they didn't understand the issue, which seems more sensible than closing your eyes and writing an X because "well that's what you have to do". Those people do not lose their right to complain about the Government's actions to enforce the outcome of that referendum - indeed, that would be wholly UNdemocratic, suggesting the only way you can effect change is by voting for a representative or outcome. Democracy is much broader than that.

 

[AlterEgo]

...they may drop the least popular policies in their manifesto if there's enough pressure from the opposition or public.

Oh right, so democracy isn't just expressed at the ballot box - just as I've been saying! The most fundamental change occurs outside the voting booth.

Someone who does not vote but is instead an activist, or a community-builder, or a lobbyist, or a direct action taker, or a satirist, etc etc...is more of a democrat, and is more invested in democracy than someone who votes every time they're asked, even if they don't understand or like the choices, and goes home and doesn't partake in the activities of the first person.

The idea that failing to vote robs you of your democratic right to complain and be heard is absolute tyranny.

 

[northwichcat]

It is exactly the same principle and I made clear how I was linking it to the referendum. By voting in the referendum for Remain, Leavers tell me I was participating in a democratic exercise, the outcome of which should be respected. Likewise, if I didn't vote at all, both Remainers and Leavers would be telling me not to moan about it as I didn't not express my wishes. There are people who didn't vote in the Referendum because they felt they didn't understand the issue, which seems more sensible than closing your eyes and writing an X because "well that's what you have to do". Those people do not lose their right to complain about the Government's actions to enforce the outcome of that referendum - indeed, that would be wholly UNdemocratic, suggesting the only way you can effect change is by voting for a representative or outcome. Democracy is much broader than that.

You seem to be explaining why a referendum is different. As you say there were two choices and many people wouldn't have fully understood the implications of either option.

If Remain had won would we have had another referendum if something significant happened e.g. Turkey joining the EU? Would a third option of "Remain for now but review again in x years or if y happens" have beaten Leave if it had been available? Or would an option of 'Leave but only if we can remain in single market' have won if it had been available? We don't know and if anyone suggests a second vote to determine if the public want hard Brexit or not then the pro-hard Brexit believers claim it's a 'threat to democracy.'

In 2010 some voters decided to switch from Labour to Lib Dem but switched back in 2015 after the Lib Dems formed a coalition with the Conservatives. With Brexit we aren't trying it for 5 years and the information available now is different to the information which was provided prior to the referendum.

 

[northwichcat]

The idea that failing to vote robs you of your democratic right to complain and be heard is absolute tyranny.

It's how you express your democratic right.

You can have no overall control both for a parliament and a local council or one party with a very slim majority, which is why some of the policies of the biggest party might not go through but it'll be rare if they are the headline vote winning policies that don't go through.