EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[northwichcat]

ESTA-style systems seem to be the way that things are going. We could always do the same, but I don't know if this is the time to do anything that makes us less attractive as a place to visit.

We could do the same but we wouldn't gain anything by having a separate system and we'll have to pay a fee for visiting Europe if a hard Brexit is implemented.

As you say having to do an additional separate application for the UK might be off-putting to some non-EU nationals wanting to do a tour of Europe, especially considering there's also the issue of a separate currency.

 

[najaB]

More that a) it's completely irrelevant to us now that we are leaving and b) if we were still members we could have used our veto to block anything along those lines that was proposed.

And (c) some of us don't get quite so het up over the concept of a federal Europe. The 'sovereign nation state' isn't as much of a 'thing' as it was in the 20th century thanks to the rise of multinational super-corporations, virtually unlimited international trade and transnational information sharing and cooperation over the Internet.

 

[northwichcat]

More that a) it's completely irrelevant to us now that we are leaving and b) if we were still members we could have used our veto to block anything along those lines that was proposed.

Indeed. Farage said "Thank God we're leaving" but as an MEP he could block changes if they don't suit Britain. However, in reality UKIP MEPs frequently don't turn up to vote as letting the EU get their way strengthens the case for leaving.

 

[fowler9]

After crossing the border between Bosnia and Croatia 6 times in one day I think people are massively underestimating just how much an impact leaving the EU is going to have on trade between us and the EU. I know the UK, Bosnia and Croatia are very different but it was an incredible ball ache. Each crossing took at least 20 minutes, one lasted an hour and included us all getting off the bus and a full search and that was just a tourist bus, imagine it with a lorry.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Because remainers are in denial about a federal Europe, which puts them in Egypt, and leavers have more important things to argue about than saying told you so

Or maybe because us remainers realise that until the whole leave vote came about, we have actually been a very powerful member of the EU with a lot of its policies (even the ones the British press love to whinge about) coming from ourselves. We also have a veto that can be used to block certain things from being passed. Far from being in a position where the EU pressures us into things, we actually were in a very strong position (shown by the fact we continued to have opt outs for all sorts of things that other countries did not have).

 

[dgl]

As this is a railway forum I thought that I would post this picture from the Have I Got News For You twitter account:

"Ringo Starr returns to narrate new pro Brexit Thomas the Tank Engine."

The picture is of an angry Thomas the Tank Engine with the usual "Thomas And Friends" Logo/Text replaced with "Thomas and No Friends"

 

[northwichcat]

After crossing the border between Bosnia and Croatia 6 times in one day I think people are massively underestimating just how much an impact leaving the EU is going to have on trade between us and the EU. I know the UK, Bosnia and Croatia are very different but it was an incredible ball ache. Each crossing took at least 20 minutes, one lasted an hour and included us all getting off the bus and a full search and that was just a tourist bus, imagine it with a lorry.

I did a similar trip from Dubrovnik to Mostar which needs 3 border crossings in each direction. According to the guide at a border crossing which took 50 minutes they didn't even scan the EU passports and the delay was due to a coach of Chinese nationals in front of us taking a very long time to process. Without a Norway style agreement with the EU we'll be just like those Chinese nationals and the Eurostar checks now will be nothing compared to what they could become.

 

[najaB]

...Eurostar checks now will be nothing compared to what they could become.

I expect that it would decimate Eurostar bookings.

 

[bramling]

Or maybe because us remainers realise that until the whole leave vote came about, we have actually been a very powerful member of the EU with a lot of its policies (even the ones the British press love to whinge about) coming from ourselves. We also have a veto that can be used to block certain things from being passed. Far from being in a position where the EU pressures us into things, we actually were in a very strong position (shown by the fact we continued to have opt outs for all sorts of things that other countries did not have).

But no viable opt-out on free movement of people, which was/is very clearly something many British people found increasingly untenable.

In the last year I've been surprised just how many conversations I've heard openly taking place where EU immigration is described in an extremely negative light. Indeed I heard one just this afternoon in a local furniture store.

 

[EM2]

But no viable opt-out on free movement of people, which was/is very clearly something many British people found increasingly untenable.

I don't see why there would be. Freedom of movement is a basic principle of the EU, as it was of the EEC, so it hasn't really changed and was something the UK was well aware of when joining.
If there is ill-feeling towards free movement of people who are relying on the state, then that is purely the fault of the UK Government, as The Citizens’ Rights Directive 2004/38/EC permits nation states to expel EU citizens who do not fulfil the following criteria:

Article 7

Right of residence for more than three months

1. All Union citizens shall have the right of residence on the territory of another Member State for a period of longer than three months if they:

(a)

are workers or self-employed persons in the host Member State; or

(b)

have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State during their period of residence and have comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the host Member State; or

(c)

are enrolled at a private or public establishment, accredited or financed by the host Member State on the basis of its legislation or administrative practice, for the principal purpose of following a course of study, including vocational training; and have comprehensive sickness insurance cover in the host Member State and assure the relevant national authority, by means of a declaration or by such equivalent means as they may choose, that they have sufficient resources for themselves and their family members not to become a burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State during their period of residence; or

(d)

are family members accompanying or joining a Union citizen who satisfies the conditions referred to in points (a), (b) or (c).

 

[bramling]

I don't see why there would be. Freedom of movement is a basic principle of the EU, as it was of the EEC, so it hasn't really changed and was something the UK was well aware of when joining.
If there is ill-feeling towards free movement of people who are relying on the state, then that is purely the fault of the UK Government, as The Citizens’ Rights Directive 2004/38/EC permits nation states to expel EU citizens who do not fulfil the following criteria:

I don't think people really give that much of a stuff whether EU free movementers are relying on the state or not, that just makes it *even more* unpalatable. It's about numbers, little more than that.

The difference nowadays compared to older times is numbers again - there was evidently much less of an issue when the EU was smaller formed of mainly western countries with less disparity between the various economies.

 

[EM2]

It's about numbers, little more than that.

The difference nowadays compared to older times is numbers again - there was evidently much less of an issue when the EU was smaller formed of mainly western countries with less disparity between the various economies.

Well, once again we have a veto, which we could have used to block the entry of new countries to the EU.
The fact that we didn't is not the fault of the EU.
http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/council-eu/voting-system/unanimity/

The Council has to vote unanimously on a number of matters which the member states consider to be sensitive. For example:

• common foreign and security policy (with the exception of certain clearly defined cases which require qualified majority, e.g. appointment of a special representative)
• citizenship (the granting of new rights to EU citizens)
• EU membership
• harmonisation of national legislation on indirect taxation
• EU finances (own resources, the multiannual financial framework)
• certain provisions in the field of justice and home affairs (the European prosecutor, family law, operational police cooperation, etc.)
• harmonisation of national legislation in the field of social security and social protection.

In addition, the Council is required to vote unanimously to diverge from the Commission proposal when the Commission is unable to agree to the amendments made to its proposal. This rule does not apply to acts that need to be adopted by the Council on a Commission recommendation, for example, acts in the area of economic coordination.

Under unanimous voting, abstention does not prevent a decision from being taken.

 

[rf_ioliver]

No views on Junckers speech last week? Strange that.

Juncker set out a vision of where the EU may/should/will go - that's his job. Whether the EU goes in that direction, how far, how fast etc is another question altogether. However, given Brexit the UK now has no say in any of this.

On the otherhand, think of how many column inches the tabloid media can get out of this without reporting on other issues such as how parlimentary processes have just been hijacked in the UK ... Henri VIII clauses .... <sigh>.

I guess it was never said what kind of sovereignty the UK would get...

t.

Ian

 

[radamfi]

The difference nowadays compared to older times is numbers again - there was evidently much less of an issue when the EU was smaller formed of mainly western countries with less disparity between the various economies.

When Britain joined, it was one of the poorest countries in western Europe. GDP per capita circa 1980 was about half of that of West Germany. So Britain has exploited the EEC/EU to get back up to roughly the western European average.

 

[northwichcat]

When Britain joined, it was one of the poorest countries in western Europe. GDP per capita circa 1980 was about half of that of West Germany. So Britain has exploited the EEC/EU to get back up to roughly the western European average.

People often forget that while countries like Greece have made the Euro weaker, that the Euro is still a stronger currency than the British pound.

 

[northwichcat]

But no viable opt-out on free movement of people, which was/is very clearly something many British people found increasingly untenable.

In the last year I've been surprised just how many conversations I've heard openly taking place where EU immigration is described in an extremely negative light. Indeed I heard one just this afternoon in a local furniture store.

Ideally we need a system where UK employers can take on seasonal workers (including students on work placements) from outside the UK without a load of red tape and one where British people can be seasonal workers in other countries. Australia allows Britons under 30 with enough available funds to be seasonal workers in Australia but something closer to home and not restricted to under 30s is also needed.

Also don't forget non-EU countries like India want their citizens to take the place of EU citizens in the UK and countries like that have a lot of people who want to work or/and study in the UK.

 

[bramling]

Well, once again we have a veto, which we could have used to block the entry of new countries to the EU.
The fact that we didn't is not the fault of the EU.
http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/council-eu/voting-system/unanimity/

Whether or not we should have used the veto over an issue in the past doesn't help us *now* though, does it? Still doesn't provide us with a means of checking freedom of movement.

The veto doesn't allow for changes in circumstances, or - dare one says it - errors of judgements. Even Tony Blair has come out and said there should have been more checks on freedom of movement during eastern expansion.

I'm increasingly surprised just how utterly sick of excessive levels of immigration a lot of British people are now.

 

[bramling]

When Britain joined, it was one of the poorest countries in western Europe. GDP per capita circa 1980 was about half of that of West Germany. So Britain has exploited the EEC/EU to get back up to roughly the western European average.

Any proof that this getting up to average was specifically aided by the EU/EEC?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

No views on Junckers speech last week? Strange that.

Perhaps, in part that's because pro-Brexit politicians and media have made headlines out of selectively (mis)representing stuff (often out of context) that EU people say so many times that the whole thing has become boring. For my part whenever I hear a story about some EU figure having allegedly said something awful, the default assumption now is that it's probably the Brexit camp crying Wolf again. Experience suggests that if I made the time to investigate, I'd discover it's just another out-of-context misrepresentation. So I don't bother - life is too short.

A sad state of affairs because, maybe, just maybe, that may mean that one day I miss something important. But if Brexit politicans and media had paid more attention to truthfulness in the past, and hadn't misrepresented people so many times before, then I'd probably pay more attention.

 

[EM2]

Whether or not we should have used the veto over an issue in the past doesn't help us *now* though, does it? Still doesn't provide us with a means of checking freedom of movement.

No, but you can't blame the EU for that.
They specifically give member states tools to do so, and we decided not to do it.

Under EU law:
We had a veto over expansion - we didn't use it.
We could have placed restrictions on the rights of work of the citizens of the new entrant states for up to seven years - we didn't do it.
We can expel EU residents that are not financially solvent after three months - we don't do it.

Whose fault is all that?

 

[radamfi]

Any proof that this getting up to average was specifically aided by the EU/EEC?

Obviously it is impossible to prove conclusively, but clearly being part of a large tariff free single market with standardisation of business regulations and standards is beneficial for generating economic activity. Ireland joined at the same time and was even poorer than the UK but it became one of the richest countries in the world.

 

[bramling]

No, but you can't blame the EU for that.
They specifically give member states tools to do so, and we decided not to do it.

Under EU law:
We had a veto over expansion - we didn't use it.
We could have placed restrictions on the rights of work of the citizens of the new entrant states for up to seven years - we didn't do it.
We can expel EU residents that are not financially solvent after three months - we don't do it.

Whose fault is all that?

I'm not interested in the past. Fact is we apparently had no means of changing freedom of movement. Cameron allegedly tried and failed. One can repeat as often as one likes that things should have been done differently in the past, but it simply doesn't help us now. Personally I'm not comfortable with the idea that a country only gets a veto at the time a change comes in, then subsequently it's too late to make changes, either changing one's mind or reacting to something unexpected or unintended. It's this intransigence that turns many people off the EU, combined with the apparent belligerence displayed by the likes of Juncker.

Meanwhile, it's rather dismaying, almost an embarrassment, that even the likes of Blair are now tacitly of the opinion that the Daily Mail and Daily Express had it right about the immigration policy associated with eastern enlargement. Pity he didn't make the right judgement at the time, along with certain other policy decisions...

 

[AlterEgo]

Obviously it is impossible to prove conclusively, but clearly being part of a large tariff free single market with standardisation of business regulations and standards is beneficial for generating economic activity. Ireland joined at the same time and was even poorer than the UK but it became one of the richest countries in the world.

But you cannot necessarily attribute that to the EU.

Ireland switched from an incredibly agrarian economy to one specialising in the tertiary sector.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Fact is we apparently had no means of changing freedom of movement.

But that isn't fact, as people have been trying to say here.

 

[bramling]

Obviously it is impossible to prove conclusively, but clearly being part of a large tariff free single market with standardisation of business regulations and standards is beneficial for generating economic activity. Ireland joined at the same time and was even poorer than the UK but it became one of the richest countries in the world.

So in other words no proof at all, just heresay. We might have done even better outside the EU. Certainly pretty much everyone is thankful we didn't join the single currency.

 

[northwichcat]

Certainly pretty much everyone is thankful we didn't join the single currency.

Why? Like I've already said the Euro has outperformed the pound for the past 10 years despite countries like Greece lowering the value of the Euro. I imagine if 'pretty much everyone' thinks we're better outside the Euro then 'pretty much everyone' is poorly informed/educated. To be honest I used to think it was a good job we didn't join the Euro when I heard about the number of countries in the Euro zone with a collapsing economy, that was before I realised we were doing even worse than the Euro zone!

 

[EM2]

I'm not interested in the past. Fact is we apparently had no means of changing freedom of movement.

Of course we didn't. We knew that joining the EEC would mean agreeing to freedom of movement. We knew that when we first applied in 1961, and got vetoed by De Gaulle.
When there were changes to the Union, knowing how that might impact on our population and economy, we had the opportunity to keep things as we already had them. The fact that we didn't is absolutely nothing to do with the EU itself.
The EU have been blamed for 'allowing' the UK to be 'flooded' with migrant labour, when it was entirely within our power for that not to happen.

 

[bramling]

Why? Like I've already said the Euro has outperformed the pound for the past 10 years despite countries like Greece lowering the value of the Euro. I imagine if 'pretty much everyone' thinks we're better outside the Euro then 'pretty much everyone' is poorly informed/educated. To be honest I used to think it was a good job we didn't join the Euro when I heard about the number of countries in the Euro zone with a collapsing economy, that was before I realised we were doing even worse than the Euro zone!

The idea of sharing a common interest rate is a complete and utter no as far as I am concerned.

Meanwhile, I see we're back to the typical remain attitude that everyone else is wrong / badly educated / badly informed (etc).

 

[bramling]

Of course we didn't. We knew that joining the EEC would mean agreeing to freedom of movement. We knew that when we first applied in 1961, and got vetoed by De Gaulle.
When there were changes to the Union, knowing how that might impact on our population and economy, we had the opportunity to keep things as we already had them. The fact that we didn't is absolutely nothing to do with the EU itself.
The EU have been blamed for 'allowing' the UK to be 'flooded' with migrant labour, when it was entirely within our power for that not to happen.

Yes, perhaps we shouldn't have joined in the first place. If nothing else we'd be saving a whole load of hassle now. Of course, those not around for the first referendum never had that choice anyway.

Personally, I didn't vote to join in the first place, and didn't vote New Labour in 97, 01 or 05 either, so these misjudgements certainly aren't my fault!

 

[furnessvale]

After crossing the border between Bosnia and Croatia 6 times in one day I think people are massively underestimating just how much an impact leaving the EU is going to have on trade between us and the EU. I know the UK, Bosnia and Croatia are very different but it was an incredible ball ache. Each crossing took at least 20 minutes, one lasted an hour and included us all getting off the bus and a full search and that was just a tourist bus, imagine it with a lorry.

It would certainly knock a hole in the annual net benefit to the EU of gbp80bn trade surplus with the UK (gbp30bn to Germany alone), which is why it won't happen.