EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[TheKnightWho]

You said you have plenty of evidence that a sizeable chunk of Brexiters are anti-intellectual. It is entirely reasonable to ask you how many people you define as a sizeable chunk.

For the sake of argument, let's say that a sizeable chunk is 5%, which is about 850,000 people.

Do you have evidence that 850,000 Brexiters are anti-intellectual?

So I've presented a prominent Leave politician, the main Leave newspaper, and the main talking point of the Leave campaign and that isn't good enough for you? Do you want me to ask 850,000 people personally before you'll be satisfied?

You're making an unfalsifiable argument now. The irony continues.

 

[radamfi]

The "intellectuals" in universities are already getting shafted big time:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-uk-leaves-the-eu-36719923

European academic bodies are pulling back from research collaboration with UK academics, amid post-Brexit uncertainty about the future of UK higher education.

While post-Brexit Britain might remain inside the European research funding system, academics in other countries are nervous about collaborating with UK institutions.

UK-based academics are being asked to withdraw their applications for future funding by European partners.

BBC Newsnight is aware of concerns raised by academics at Bristol, Oxford, Cambridge, Exeter and Durham.

Chris Husbands, the vice-chancellor at Sheffield Hallam, says that his researchers are already seeing significant effects.

but because it is "intellectuals" are suffering, and the academic world is as staunch Remain as it gets, that makes it OK.

 

[Gutfright]

So I've presented a prominent Leave politician, the main Leave newspaper, and the main talking point of the Leave campaign and that isn't good enough for you? Do you want me to ask 850,000 people personally before you'll be satisfied?

You're making an unfalsifiable argument now. The irony continues.

I'm not making any argument. I'm asking if you have any evidence that a sizeable number of Brexit voters are anti-intellectual.

I'm just going to assume that Gove is anti-intellectual. One down, 849,999 to go.

Talking points can't vote.

The Daily Mail is one-sided. I'm not sure if that makes them anti-intellectual, but let's assume they are. Let's also assume they have 49,999 editors, journalists etc working for them and a strict "anti-intellectuals only" hiring policy.

Only 800,000 Brexit voters to go...

The "intellectuals" in universities are already getting shafted big time:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-uk-leaves-the-eu-36719923

but because it is "intellectuals" are suffering, and the academic world is as staunch Remain as it gets, that makes it OK.

You may think it's OK for European academic bodies to shaft UK academics, but I think it's disgraceful.

Those European academic bodies should be ashamed of themselves.

 

[TheKnightWho]

I'm not making any argument. I'm asking if you have any evidence that a sizeable number of Brexit voters are anti-intellectual.

I'm just going to assume that Gove is anti-intellectual. One down, 849,999 to go.

Talking points can't vote.

The Daily Mail is one-sided. I'm not sure if that makes them anti-intellectual, but let's assume they are. Let's also assume they have 49,999 editors, journalists etc working for them and a strict "anti-intellectuals only" hiring policy.

Only 800,000 Brexit voters to go...

You are not making a meaningful argument. You are throwing random numbers about, whilst setting a standard I must meet that is impossible for anyone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability

When you stop with your silly sophistry and intentional misinterpretation and bad faith, then maybe we can have a meaningful discussion. However, from your previous posts that seems to be your favourite tactic when anyone with a modicum of education stands up to you. I mean, are you really arguing that only 50,000 people have made the hilariously anti-intellectual Project Fear argument? You're not only wildly optimistic about Brexit, but clearly completely naive about the influence of the media.
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You may think it's OK for European academic bodies to shaft UK academics, but I think it's disgraceful.

Those European academic bodies should be ashamed of themselves.

So they should be ashamed for doing what every academic has always done? Gone where the money is?

Just how deluded and entitled are you about how the world works? You can't expect them to continue collaboration when the future of the UK's Higher Education sector is uncertain; it is completely unreasonable to expect them to put their own research at risk.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

 

[Gutfright]

You are not making a meaningful argument.

Again, I'm not making any argument. You have made a claim, and I have asked to see your evidence.

Your claim was that there is plenty of evidence that a sizeable chunk* of Brexiters are anti-intellectual.

If the evidence is so plentiful, why not share it with the rest of us?

*For reasons best known to yourself, you have repeatedly refused to define how big you consider a "sizeable chunk" to be.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Again, I'm not making any argument. You have made a claim, and I have asked to see your evidence.

Your claim was that there is plenty of evidence that a sizeable chunk* of Brexiters are anti-intellectual.

If the evidence is so plentiful, why not share it with the rest of us?

*For reasons best known to yourself, you have repeatedly refused to define how big you consider a "sizeable chunk" to be.

What evidence would satisfy you? I haven't refused to define it: I have given you three pieces of evidence, two of which you hugely downplayed with no explanation why, and one of which you completely ignored.

You then stated I hadn't lived up to an arbitrary standard, and arbitrarily restricted the entire influence of the Daily Mail to 49,999 people. That isn't just wrong - it's wilfully disingenuous and avoiding the issue.

 

[Gutfright]

What evidence would satisfy you? I haven't refused to define it: I have given you three pieces of evidence, two of which you hugely downplayed with no explanation why, and one of which you completely ignored.

You then stated I hadn't lived up to an arbitrary standard, and arbitrarily restricted the entire influence of the Daily Mail to 49,999 people. That isn't just wrong - it's wilfully disingenuous and avoiding the issue.

The problem here seems to be that you have confused conjecture with evidence.

It's clear that you have no idea what number of Brexiters are anti-intellectual. It also seems unlikely at this point that you are ever going to tell us how many people you think constitutes a "sizeable chunk". Goodness knows you've been prompted enough times.

 

[TheKnightWho]

The problem here seems to be that you have confused conjecture with evidence.

It's clear that you have no idea what number of Brexiters are anti-intellectual. It also seems unlikely at this point that you are ever going to tell us how many people you think constitutes a "sizeable chunk". Goodness knows you've been prompted enough times.

Do you deny that Project Fear was one of the main arguments of the Leave campaign? Do you argue that it wasn't widespread amongst Leave supporters? Do you argue it's not anti-intellectual?

What you have done is place yourself in an unfalsifiable position by setting a standard which you know is impossible, which you have repeatedly failed to acknowledge. That is anti-intellectual in and of itself, and says a lot about how you're unwilling to properly engage with your opponents, preferring to frame things in the way that suits you whilst selectively ignoring what doesn't fit. What is most ridiculous about it is that the standard you set makes all macrosociological analysis impossible - but then, I don't suppose you'll remember that next time you make any comment on political matters, will you?

Why must I define things with an exact number, when the evidence I have presented suggests it was very widespread. Do you want to do a search for 'Project Fear' on this forum?

https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/fight-back-against-brexit-anti-intellectualism-says-v-c

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...experts-whether-they-support-leave-or-remain/

https://medium.com/@deeebeau/on-brexit-trump-and-anti-intellectualism-e79b4de88074

https://theintercept.com/2016/06/22...gn-apologizes-comparing-pro-eu-experts-nazis/

http://time.com/4381520/brexit-lament/

http://www.vox.com/2016/6/24/12023544/brexit-uk-young-voters

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...nerational-theft-of-brexit-and-climate-change

Is that enough for you? Or do you want me to personally go and do a survey of an arbitrary number of people? Next time you make any claims, I'll make the same demand.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Good to see you two finally decided sleep was a better option than continuing an argument neither of you are ever going to win.

I saw a lot of anti intellectual posts from both sides over facebook during the campaign. I also have a lot of friends who voted leave who all they said when i raised concerns was project fear, i was just scared and using that to scaremonger others. Also take control, which i think is anti intellectual as it doesn't say anything. That response was given to me by 6 out of the 10 leave voters in my close friendship group.

An extrapolation of 50% of that total would give you 30% of 17 million which is 5.1 million. Significantly more than your requested 850,000. Notice I halved the representation from my group.

Equally of the 17 people in my close friendship group who voted remain, 4 of them i would say made anti intellectual arguments around various things. Mostly around how we are part of a European Identity we owe it to our neighbours etc etc.

So that gives you 4 out of 17 or 23%. Half it again to prevent being shown bias and we have 12% of 15 million or 1.8 million people. Or because i was in a biased group leaning more towards remain and i myself voted remain let us not half the representation and make it 3.6 million.

Short of going out an asking every voter their opinion you are not going to achieve any more than what i have written above, and i have achieved very little.


So the economy continues to show signs of weakness, no leader to take any more of control. This is going swimmingly. A lot of people blaming the remain camp for increasing the uncertainty, while that is certainly part of it. Top leave campaigners refusing to be part of what follows is also contributing to a lack of control or leadership.

 

[radamfi]

You may think it's OK for European academic bodies to shaft UK academics, but I think it's disgraceful.

Those European academic bodies should be ashamed of themselves.

Don't you understand why European academia is behaving in this way? If the UK pulls out of these collaborations in a couple of years, then that will screw everything up. The UK could sort this out now by committing to full participation in the single market post-Brexit.

Another example of people being directly affected by Britain's vote is the cycling campaigner David Hembrow. Around 2007 he quit a well paid job in Cambridge to live in the Netherlands to set up a variety of cycling related businesses and to enable his family to take advantage of the world's best cycling facilities. When trying to get a business loan a few days ago, it was going very well until his British nationality came up:

Some readers may have noticed the calming words from the BBC website about how expats living in Europe will not be affected by brexit for another two years. This is totally untrue. Rather than taking two years for problems to arise, it took just three days for us:

I had a meeting on Monday with my bank. We are seeking a small business loan to expand. It's very easy to justify on the grounds of our capital, income etc. As expected, the meeting went well and everything seemed a certainly, but then the subject turn to nationality. I have a right to be here at present only because I'm a British and therefore also an EU citizen. Due to brexit this right could be taken away and therefore the bank will not lend us a penny until the right to remain can be resolved.

Far from the BBC's claim that nothing has changed, British citizenship already has far less value now than it did last week.

http://davidhembrow.blogspot.co.uk/

 

[YorkshireBear]

Good to see you two finally decided sleep was a better option than continuing an argument neither of you are ever going to win.

I saw a lot of anti intellectual posts from both sides over facebook during the campaign. I also have a lot of friends who voted leave who all they said when i raised concerns was project fear, i was just scared and using that to scaremonger others. Also take control, which i think is anti intellectual as it doesn't say anything. That response was given to me by 6 out of the 10 leave voters in my close friendship group.

An extrapolation of 50% of that total would give you 30% of 17 million which is 5.1 million. Significantly more than your requested 850,000. Notice I halved the representation from my group.

Equally of the 17 people in my close friendship group who voted remain, 4 of them i would say made anti intellectual arguments around various things. Mostly around how we are part of a European Identity we owe it to our neighbours etc etc.

So that gives you 4 out of 17 or 23%. Half it again to prevent being shown bias and we have 12% of 15 million or 1.8 million people. Or because i was in a biased group leaning more towards remain and i myself voted remain let us not half the representation and make it 3.6 million.

Short of going out an asking every voter their opinion you are not going to achieve any more than what i have written above, and i have achieved very little.


So the economy continues to show signs of weakness, no leader to take any more of control. This is going swimmingly. A lot of people blaming the remain camp for increasing the uncertainty, while that is certainly part of it. Top leave campaigners refusing to be part of what follows is also contributing to a lack of control or leadership.

 

[anme]

You said you have plenty of evidence that a sizeable chunk of Brexiters are anti-intellectual. It is entirely reasonable to ask you how many people you define as a sizeable chunk.

For the sake of argument, let's say that a sizeable chunk is 5%, which is about 850,000 people.

Do you have evidence that 850,000 Brexiters are anti-intellectual?

I haven't done any analysis so I won't claim any numbers, but let's look at some evidence.

Michael Gove, leader of the leavers, said that the British public "have had enough of experts". That's pretty much the ultimate "anti-intellectual" statement and is the same as saying the British public are morons. Staggeringly, I've never seen a single leaver on this forum disown the statement.

And look through the posts on this forum. We've seen a steady stream of lies parroted by leavers - from made up immigration statistics to deranged claims about the EU running the British army, via the dodgiest economic statistics this side of North Korea.

Do you still want to claim the "leave" side are not anti-intellectual?
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Don't you understand why European academia is behaving in this way? If the UK pulls out of these collaborations in a couple of years, then that will screw everything up. The UK could sort this out now by committing to full participation in the single market post-Brexit.

Another example of people being directly affected by Britain's vote is the cycling campaigner David Hembrow. Around 2007 he quit a well paid job in Cambridge to live in the Netherlands to set up a variety of cycling related businesses and to enable his family to take advantage of the world's best cycling facilities. When trying to get a business loan a few days ago, it was going very well until his British nationality came up:



http://davidhembrow.blogspot.co.uk/

Absolutely true. British people living elsewhere in the, and EU citizens in the UK, are now in the worst possible position. They have no certainty about their future status, and in many cases they have no way to resolve the situation (they may not qualify to become a citizen of the countries where they live and work for many years).

Thanks leavers - perhaps you would like to apologise to these people?

 

[AM9]

I haven't done any analysis so I won't claim any numbers, but let's look at some evidence.

Michael Gove, leader of the leavers, said that the British public "have had enough of experts". That's pretty much the ultimate "anti-intellectual" statement and is the same as saying the British public are morons. Staggeringly, I've never seen a single leaver on this forum disown the statement.

And look through the posts on this forum. We've seen a steady stream of lies parroted by leavers - from made up immigration statistics to deranged claims about the EU running the British army, via the dodgiest economic statistics this side of North Korea.

Do you still want to claim the "leave" side are not anti-intellectual?
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Absolutely true. British people living elsewhere in the, and EU citizens in the UK, are now in the worst possible position. They have no certainty about their future status, and in many cases they have no way to resolve the situation (they may not qualify to become a citizen of the countries where they live and work for many years).

Thanks leavers - perhaps you would like to apologise to these people?

Whilst I agree with the sentiments of the last four posts, I still have a feeling that we might not leave the EU after all, - either in actuality or in effect by opting for a Norwegian-style EEA status. I think that by the time that the Conservative party sorts itself out, with what's looking like Ms May in place, the real impact of leaving will start to become obvious. The steps necessary to prevent a serious and damaging slide into recession will put an actual departure from European relationships into the too painful category and the transient nature of public opinion will see that those who thought immigration was the reason for all their problems will look begin to feel the real pain of isolation.
There seems to be an increasing number of random comments in the media, (specifically the Times and Daily Telegraph in my obervations*) where expert spectators from afar see such an end-game as quite likely. I haven't been collecting them in case anybody here wants to pick the words over. I'm sure somebody here will be along soon to dismiss them as fearmongering. I think that this is why the leading voices in the leave camp are pushing for Article 50 activation as soon as possible to make remaining impossible, although the legal position is far from clear and may be subject to a challenge. The formal status of the referendum result may be as a rather large public opinion poll with a political cost of ignoring it, but not strong enough to force the country to risk an economic disaster.

* Both commited Brexit newspapers.

 

[miami]

1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.

What are our own constitutional requiements? Is it a referendum? Or a parliamentary decision? Or an executive decision? If it's an executive decision, could Cameron have got drunk one night back in 2013 said "we're leaving", and that would be enough? Seems odd to put so much power in a single person.

Why wasn't this answer sorted before the referendum was called?

A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention.

How is this notification made? If a referendum is enough for the constitutional requirements, isn't declaring the result of that is the act of notifying the council. Again, if the notification can be made by the PM alone, it's an irreversable decision. Even if he's deposed 30 minutes later it can't be undone.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Whilst I agree with the sentiments of the last four posts, I still have a feeling that we might not leave the EU after all, - either in actuality or in effect by opting for a Norwegian-style EEA status. I think that by the time that the Conservative party sorts itself out, with what's looking like Ms May in place, the real impact of leaving will start to become obvious. The steps necessary to prevent a serious and damaging slide into recession will put an actual departure from European relationships into the too painful category and the transient nature of public opinion will see that those who thought immigration was the reason for all their problems will look begin to feel the real pain of isolation.
There seems to be an increasing number of random comments in the media, (specifically the Times and Daily Telegraph in my obervations*) where expert spectators from afar see such an end-game as quite likely. I haven't been collecting them in case anybody here wants to pick the words over. I'm sure somebody here will be along soon to dismiss them as fearmongering. I think that this is why the leading voices in the leave camp are pushing for Article 50 activation as soon as possible to make remaining impossible, although the legal position is far from clear and may be subject to a challenge. The formal status of the referendum result may be as a rather large public opinion poll with a political cost of ignoring it, but not strong enough to force the country to risk an economic disaster.

* Both commited Brexit newspapers.

Just a small note: the Times was pro-Remain, and the Telegraph technically took no stance.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Much of the EU debate, both before and after the vote, boils down to this:

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

 

[TheKnightWho]

Much of the EU debate, both before and after the vote, boils down to this:

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

In fairness to me being "up" at 4am, I'm currently not in a UK timezone

 

[lejog]

What are our own constitutional requiements? Is it a referendum? Or a parliamentary decision? Or an executive decision? If it's an executive decision, could Cameron have got drunk one night back in 2013 said "we're leaving", and that would be enough? Seems odd to put so much power in a single person.

Why wasn't this answer sorted before the referendum was called?



How is this notification made? If a referendum is enough for the constitutional requirements, isn't declaring the result of that is the act of notifying the council. Again, if the notification can be made by the PM alone, it's an irreversable decision. Even if he's deposed 30 minutes later it can't be undone.

The referendum result wasn't binding on the government. The government yesterday claimed that its lawyers say they can trigger Article 50 under the royal perogative, although this will be challenged in the courts. The government has acknowledged that Parliament will have to repeal the European Communities Act 1972.

Although this doesn't seem to have been discussed much here, apparently French government legal opinion is that the UK would be entitled to rescind a notice to withdraw even though it had invoked article 50.

All in this article.
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In fairness to me being "up" at 4am, I'm currently not in a UK timezone

Whatever your timezone, can you please stop hijacking this thread and take your personal arguments with Gutfright to Personal Message?

 

[TheKnightWho]

Whatever your timezone, can you please stop hijacking this thread and take your personal arguments with Gutfright to Personal Message?

I was making a relevant point that has sparked wider discussion on this thread.

 

[WestCoast]

Just a small note: the Times was pro-Remain, and the Telegraph technically took no stance.

I believe the Daily Mail was/is of course pro-Leave, but surprisingly the Mail on Sunday was/is pro-Remain. I am guilty of reading the DM on Sunday as it's bought in my house and noticed it's largely negative stance toward Brexit.
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Absolutely true. British people living elsewhere in the, and EU citizens in the UK, are now in the worst possible position. They have no certainty about their future status, and in many cases they have no way to resolve the situation (they may not qualify to become a citizen of the countries where they live and work for many years).

Thanks leavers - perhaps you would like to apologise to these people?

I'm not surprised. If you read the European press there's also a lot of hysteria about what it means for them. Becoming a citizen of a country is no easy task, and most EU countries are a lot more restrictive than Ireland. Germany is still quite restrictive about dual citizenship with another non-EU citizenship, for instance.

 

[miami]

I believe the Daily Mail was/is of course pro-Leave, but surprisingly the Mail on Sunday was/is pro-Remain. I am guilty of reading the DM on Sunday as it's bought in my house and noticed it's largely negative stance toward Brexit.

Power play between the Greig and Dacre. They hate each other (but then everyone hates Dacre)

 

[Gutfright]

Good to see you two finally decided sleep was a better option than continuing an argument neither of you are ever going to win.

It wasn't an argument I was trying to "win". I am not TheKnightWho's "opponent".

TheKnightWho made a claim, and I was simply trying to find out what data and measurements that claim was based on.

TKW has provided what he considers to be "evidence". I'm sure we are all capable of deciding for ourselves whether the "evidence" provided is hard data, or if it is a combination of opinion and conjecture.

 

[TheKnightWho]

It wasn't an argument I was trying to "win". I am not TheKnightWho's "opponent".

TheKnightWho made a claim, and I was simply trying to find out what data and measurements that claim was based on.

TKW has provided what he considers to be "evidence". I'm sure we are all capable of deciding for ourselves whether the "evidence" provided is hard data, or if it is a combination of opinion and conjecture.

You've yet to state what satisfactory evidence would actually be. Did you actually read any of the 9 links I've sent you?

 

[lejog]

Oh god, I'm out of here - it seems that this thread has been hijacked by a pair of puerile, tedious bores. Arctic Troll's cartoon has never been more appropriate.

 

[miami]

Oh god, I'm out of here - it seems that this thread has been hijacked by a pair of puerile, tedious bores. Arctic Troll's cartoon has never been more appropriate.

I agree on the tedium. But you could add them both to the "ignore this user" list.

 

[Gutfright]

You've yet to state what satisfactory evidence would actually be. Did you actually read any of the 9 links I've sent you?

I read all of the 7 links you provided here. They contain a lot of assertions, but no raw data to back it up.

The exception is the Torygraph article, which does allude to an Ipsos Mori survey which completely torpedoes the idea that people trust Michael Gove more than they trust experts.

 

[TheKnightWho]

I read all of the 7 links you provided here. They contain a lot of assertions, but no raw data to back it up.

The exception is the Torygraph article, which does allude to an Ipsos Mori survey which completely torpedoes the idea that people trust Michael Gove more than they trust experts.

You have still yet to say anything about Project Fear. Something you participated in yourself, I believe?

 

[Domh245]

In other news, the pound has sunk beneath $1.30 and hit a low of $1.28 last night. That is a 15% drop from the high it hit just before the referendum.

 

[Howardh]

In other news, the pound has sunk beneath $1.30 and hit a low of $1.28 last night. That is a 15% drop from the high it hit just before the referendum.

Wonder if one of Brexit's plans as to re-introduce £sd ? Bolton to Manchester day return 3s 10d...and quite quick if the horses have been fed .

Oh, sorry, I wrote "plan". Silly me

 

[Tetchytyke]

In other news, the pound has sunk beneath $1.30 and hit a low of $1.28 last night. That is a 15% drop from the high it hit just before the referendum.

I'm heading out on honeymoon on Monday and didn't think to buy currency before the vote.

I'm feeling like Boris Johnson must be.