EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Mutant Lemming]

Indeed the flag waving two world wars and one World Cup mob really have a lot to learn.

.

Indeed we should be supporting the ordinary people of the Netherlands, France, Germany, Belgium and all the other good people of Europe who want to break free of the wretched EU.
It's arrogant self important dinosaurs refuse to change so it needs toppling.

Love Europe Hate the EU

 

[muddythefish]

Indeed we should be supporting the ordinary people of the Netherlands, France, Germany, Belgium and all the other good people of Europe who want to break free of the wretched EU.
It's arrogant self important dinosaurs refuse to change so it needs toppling.

Love Europe Hate the EU

Unfortunately for your theory, support for the EU has risen sharply since the Brexit vote as Europeans have looked on aghast at the chaos here.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36877573

A free trade deal with China??? Can you imagine what that would do to wages and jobs in the UK?

 

[Antman]

Unfortunately for your theory, support for the EU has risen sharply since the Brexit vote as Europeans have looked on aghast at the chaos here.

What chaos here? Have I missed something?
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Indeed we should be supporting the ordinary people of the Netherlands, France, Germany, Belgium and all the other good people of Europe who want to break free of the wretched EU.
It's arrogant self important dinosaurs refuse to change so it needs toppling.

Love Europe Hate the EU

Absolutely, it's grown into a monster that is out of control.

 

[EM2]

Absolutely, it's grown into a monster that is out of control.

In what way?

 

[miami]

In what way?

Bananas can not be sold in bunches of more that 350 million.

 

[zuriblue]

Bananas can not be sold in bunches of more that 350 million.

Which could go to the NHS.

 

[Harbornite]

Let's spend it on apples instead.

 

[Howardh]

Well, May is due to travel to Norn - no doubt to discuss the implications of Brexit on the (non) Irish border.
On the one hand May has previously warned it was "inconceivable" that border arrangements with the Republic of Ireland would be unchanged by a Brexit vote.

On the other hand taoiseach Kenny has stated There "will not be a hard border" on the island of Ireland in the wake of the UK's withdrawal from the EU "We do not want to see a European border internally on the island of Ireland".

"There will not be a hard border from Dundalk to Derry."

Right, Brexit, over to you. Sort that one out. Chaos? What chaos??

UPDATE just reading the Guardian, now May has apparently changed her mind and there will be "no hard border" at all. OK, we have a position on that. Good.
Just means that the "control our borders" bit on Brexit has been thrown out the window. You won't have freedom of movement into the UK apart from the areas where you will have freedom of movement into the UK. Got it.

 

[WestCoast]

Well, May is due to travel to Norn - no doubt to discuss the implications of Brexit on the (non) Irish border.
On the one hand May has previously warned it was "inconceivable" that border arrangements with the Republic of Ireland would be unchanged by a Brexit vote.

On the other hand taoiseach Kenny has stated There "will not be a hard border" on the island of Ireland in the wake of the UK's withdrawal from the EU "We do not want to see a European border internally on the island of Ireland".

"There will not be a hard border from Dundalk to Derry."

Right, Brexit, over to you. Sort that one out. Chaos? What chaos??

UPDATE just reading the Guardian, now May has apparently changed her mind and there will be "no hard border" at all. OK, we have a position on that. Good.
Just means that the "control our borders" bit on Brexit has been thrown out the window. You won't have freedom of movement into the UK apart from the areas where you will have freedom of movement into the UK. Got it.

It would be laughable if it wasn't for the potentially serious implications for Northern Ireland. Many people in England seem to have forgotten we do share a land border with another EU country. You have to wonder what sort of issues this throws up for our very own mini-Schengen.

 

[Harbornite]

Some elements of the brexit movement won't care about boring things like the Irish border. They are too busy flag-waving and cheering about getting their country back.

In all seriousness, it's good to know that there won't be a hard border.

 

[Antman]

Bananas can not be sold in bunches of more that 350 million.

Not that old chesnut again:cry:

Yes it could be deemed misleading as could a lot from the remain side. The whole campaign became thoroughly tedious to the point that most people just wanted to get the whole thing over and done with. It is over now, we know what the outcome was and the 'remoaners' can whinge all they like but there isn't going to be a rerun!

Onwards and upwards!

 

[Howardh]

Some elements of the brexit movement won't care about boring things like the Irish border. They are too busy flag-waving and cheering about getting their country back.

In all seriousness, it's good to know that there won't be a hard border.

Also adds the question r/e customs. WE know we are likely to lose our "unlimited" tax-paid cheap french booze and gain back the full whopping 3L wine limit (thanks, Brext, nice one)
BUT
If the Irish border remains open, someone living in Norn who travels by ferry from Dublin to France etc for a holiday, can stock up with virtually unlimited tax-paid cheap boozywoozy and bring back through Dublin, and hey-ho then into the UK (Norn) unchallenged. Maybe even ship it over to the mainland at some point??
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Not that old chesnut again:cry:

Yes it could be deemed misleading as could a lot from the remain side. The whole campaign became thoroughly tedious to the point that most people just wanted to get the whole thing over and done with. It is over now, we know what the outcome was and the 'remoaners' can whinge all they like but there isn't going to be a rerun!

Onwards and upwards!

So what will you be happy with r/e the Irish Border?

 

[WestCoast]

The Irish border issue throws up a lot of potential loopholes I can think of. There isn't the political will in Ireland to protect the UK border (beyond the current obligations of the CTA), and the country has a strong history of the need for emigration and immigration.

There's budget flights from across the EU direct to Dublin. Any EU citizen can be freely admitted to Ireland and travel to the UK unchecked. There aren't even permanent ID checks on flights and ferries from Ireland to England, Wales, Scotland, Isle of Man or the Channel Islands.

Without scrapping the Common Travel Area in the British Isles there's no way Freedom of Movement can be curtailed.

 

[yorksrob]

Well, May is due to travel to Norn - no doubt to discuss the implications of Brexit on the (non) Irish border.
On the one hand May has previously warned it was "inconceivable" that border arrangements with the Republic of Ireland would be unchanged by a Brexit vote.

On the other hand taoiseach Kenny has stated There "will not be a hard border" on the island of Ireland in the wake of the UK's withdrawal from the EU "We do not want to see a European border internally on the island of Ireland".

"There will not be a hard border from Dundalk to Derry."

Right, Brexit, over to you. Sort that one out. Chaos? What chaos??

UPDATE just reading the Guardian, now May has apparently changed her mind and there will be "no hard border" at all. OK, we have a position on that. Good.
Just means that the "control our borders" bit on Brexit has been thrown out the window. You won't have freedom of movement into the UK apart from the areas where you will have freedom of movement into the UK. Got it.

It will presumably mean the Irish Republic staying out of the Schengen zone (as at present). I can't forsee a situation where the UK would want to restrict EU nationals visiting, therefore it would make little difference if they decided to enter via the scenic route.

Perhaps there will be some way of the UK and Irish Rep border authorities sharing information on particular individuals whom we don't want to let in. The Irish Rep might not stop them, however there might be an agreement to tip off the UK authorities that so and so has arrived in the common travel area so that the police can keep an eye out for them.

 

[WestCoast]

It will presumably mean the Irish Republic staying out of the Schengen zone (as at present). I can't forsee a situation where the UK would want to restrict EU nationals visiting, therefore it would make little difference if they decided to enter via the scenic route.

Perhaps there will be some way of the UK and Irish Rep border authorities sharing information on particular individuals whom we don't want to let in. The Irish Rep might not stop them, however there might be an agreement to tip off the UK authorities that so and so has arrived in the common travel area so that the police can keep an eye out for them.

The solution is of course the Swiss model. EU/EEA nationals are freely admitted (except where they are wanted or pose a threat to security as can already be done), but they require a work visa of which there are a set number each year. Might not be politically acceptable or may lead to increase in illegal employment, but it's realistic. That way the Border Force maintains its ability to function without grinding to a halt.

 

[Howardh]

It will presumably mean the Irish Republic staying out of the Schengen zone (as at present). I can't forsee a situation where the UK would want to restrict EU nationals visiting, therefore it would make little difference if they decided to enter via the scenic route.

Perhaps there will be some way of the UK and Irish Rep border authorities sharing information on particular individuals whom we don't want to let in. The Irish Rep might not stop them, however there might be an agreement to tip off the UK authorities that so and so has arrived in the common travel area so that the police can keep an eye out for them.

That would mean, I assume, someone who had come to the UK via the mainland (Dover/Heathrow/whatever) and not being allowed a work permit due to Brexit's points-system (whatever that is), being refused entry and then they try the Irish route?

Obviously they cannot by EU law be prevented from entering the Republic, so would the Irish have a legal right to inform the UK that someone who has not broken any EU law (it won't be a criminal offence to leave the EU in search of work??) MAY attempt to cross an open border?

And even if so - should both countries authorities be spending vast amounts of money on resources to track someone who merely wants a job?

If it were a known terrorist on the other hand, they can and should be prevented from entering the UK as it stands now. No need for Brexit.
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The solution is of course the Swiss model. EU/EEA nationals are freely admitted (except where they are wanted or pose a threat to security as can already be done), but they require a work visa of which there are a set number each year. Might not be politically acceptable or may lead to increase in illegal employment, but it's realistic. That way the Border Force maintains its ability to function without grinding to a halt.

That's the obvious solution (therefore we might as well be part of the EEA). However will Brexit accept that there is still total free movement of EU/EEA citzens, but instead of them all obtaining legit work, some will and the others search for illegit work?

 

[yorksrob]

The solution is of course the Swiss model. EU/EEA nationals are freely admitted (except where they are wanted or pose a threat to security as can already be done), but they require a work visa of which there are a set number each year. Might not be politically acceptable or may lead to increase in illegal employment, but it's realistic.

Indeed. Like all politics, it's about the art of the possible.

I strongly suspect that the UK and the Irish Republic will largely be singing from the same hymn sheet on this issue, therefore a solution suitable for both countries will be found quite early on.
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That would mean, I assume, someone who had come to the UK via the mainland (Dover/Heathrow/whatever) and not being allowed a work permit due to Brexit's points-system (whatever that is), being refused entry and then they try the Irish route?

Obviously they cannot by EU law be prevented from entering the Republic, so would the Irish have a legal right to inform the UK that someone who has not broken any EU law (it won't be a criminal offence to leave the EU in search of work??) MAY attempt to cross an open border?

And even if so - should both countries authorities be spending vast amounts of money on resources to track someone who merely wants a job?

If it were a known terrorist on the other hand, they can and should be prevented from entering the UK as it stands now. No need for Brexit.

I doubt the authorities would spend time tracking people who just want a job. On a practical level, if someone didn't have the right to work in the UK but entered the country through legal means, they probably wouldn't be able to obtain an NI number. This may lead to working in the "unofficial" employment sector, but that isn't really any different from the situation for non-EU nationals now.

 

[EM2]

Absolutely, it's grown into a monster that is out of control.

In what way?

Do we have an answer, Antman?

 

[TheKnightWho]

Indeed we should be supporting the ordinary people of the Netherlands, France, Germany, Belgium and all the other good people of Europe who want to break free of the wretched EU.
It's arrogant self important dinosaurs refuse to change so it needs toppling.

Love Europe Hate the EU

Nice theory - shame it doesn't bare up to any kind of reality.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not that old chesnut again:cry:

Yes it could be deemed misleading as could a lot from the remain side. The whole campaign became thoroughly tedious to the point that most people just wanted to get the whole thing over and done with. It is over now, we know what the outcome was and the 'remoaners' can whinge all they like but there isn't going to be a rerun!

Onwards and upwards!

"misleading"

No - it was a lie. A lie that I think you believed and pushed, looking back? You don't get to just absolve yourself of responsibility for lying because the consequences have come back to bite you.

The only people living in fantasy land are the Brexiters who seem to think that if they say something it makes it true. Get real.

 

[zuriblue]

The solution is of course the Swiss model. EU/EEA nationals are freely admitted (except where they are wanted or pose a threat to security as can already be done), but they require a work visa of which there are a set number each year. Might not be politically acceptable or may lead to increase in illegal employment, but it's realistic. That way the Border Force maintains its ability to function without grinding to a halt.

Nope. That applies to non EU/EEA nationals, EU/EEA nationals have free movement of people. They have to register with the Gemeinde within 8 days. In the case of a non EU/EEA national there is a quota and the employer has to show that there is a demand for the employee and it cannot be filled from within the EU/EEA. Before the Bilaterals were passed this was the case for everyone (in fact when I came here this was the case, the Bilaterals were passed in the early-mid 2000s)

 

[Mvann]

The EU needs reforming. Our exports to the EU is shrinking by %, and is somewhere between growing very slowly and stagnant in value once inflation is taken into consideration. Europes GDP per head is also shrinking.

 

[radamfi]

Nope. That applies to non EU/EEA nationals, EU/EEA nationals have free movement of people. They have to register with the Gemeinde within 8 days. In the case of a non EU/EEA national there is a quota and the employer has to show that there is a demand for the employee and it cannot be filled from within the EU/EEA. Before the Bilaterals were passed this was the case for everyone (in fact when I came here this was the case, the Bilaterals were passed in the early-mid 2000s)

Do you know how easy it was for Swiss people to work elsewhere in Europe before the bilateral agreements?

 

[Mvann]

http://www.cityam.com/246157/top-credit-ratings-agency-declares-european-union

 

[zuriblue]

Do you know how easy it was for Swiss people to work elsewhere in Europe before the bilateral agreements?

Not particularly. Before the office was moved to Aargau we had a Swiss guy assigned to us to strengthen our software team and he had to jump through a lot of hoops to get the UK work permit. Similarly I moved to Switzerland before the bilaterals came in and I had to jump through a lot of hoops before I got the Aufenthaltsbewilligung.

I started on a B permit and I was only allowed to live in Aargau where my job is. It wasn't till I got a C (after 5 years) that I had the right to move to, say Zürich. (I actually stayed in AG, ZH rents are ridiculous)

 

[WestCoast]

Nope. That applies to non EU/EEA nationals, EU/EEA nationals have free movement of people. They have to register with the Gemeinde within 8 days. In the case of a non EU/EEA national there is a quota and the employer has to show that there is a demand for the employee and it cannot be filled from within the EU/EEA. Before the Bilaterals were passed this was the case for everyone (in fact when I came here this was the case, the Bilaterals were passed in the early-mid 2000s)

Sorry, I was referring to the old Swiss model (which you experienced) or if the proposed revokaction actually takes place.

Having to register isn't that unusual, you have to do so in many EU countries regardless of your nationality and it applies to people moving domestically too.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Not that old chesnut again:cry:

Yes it could be deemed misleading as could a lot from the remain side. The whole campaign became thoroughly tedious to the point that most people just wanted to get the whole thing over and done with. It is over now, we know what the outcome was and the 'remoaners' can whinge all they like but there isn't going to be a rerun!

Onwards and upwards!

Remoaners - well done is that one of your own?

Is there one big pub somewhere with you lot patting each other on the back?

I'll ask you this one, what are you doing to "pull together and just get on with it?"

This like so many other questions usually goes unanswered

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Nice theory - shame it doesn't bare up to any kind of reality.

Not the naked truth then....

 

[radamfi]

Remoaners - well done is that one of your own?

Is there one big pub somewhere with you lot patting each other on the back?

I'll ask you this one, what are you doing to "pull together and just get on with it?"

This like so many other questions usually goes unanswered

He doesn't care what happens. Even if in practice things are almost the same as now, he will still have the satisfaction that we Brexited.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Unfortunately for your theory, support for the EU has risen sharply since the Brexit vote as Europeans have looked on aghast at the chaos here.

Don't tell me - according to one of those opinion polls that always get things so right.
The mood in Europe will swing and be exploited by the likes of IS who will step up their campaigns in Europe to push it further to the right. Their eventual aim will be to create division and chaos - divide and rule if you like.
I doubt you, the EU or anyone else will be able to stop it. The ridiculous free movement of labour and open house to all refugees will only hasten the inevitable and Mr Hollande has already dictated to us that it is not negotiable.