EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Howardh]

I suppose the logic underpinning it is that, if you are in the business of renting out property or employing people, you owe certain responsibilities over and above the “man on the Clapham omnibus”.

I suppose if they deal with tax, NI and the like then asking them to check the status of their workforce on top isn't such a burden - they would probably need that info to fill in a NI form anyway. It's certainly a solution to keeping the borders flowing.

 

[Bromley boy]

It's a world/UN problem that can only really be solved by ploughing money into where they really came from,

That’s exactly the point, isn’t it.

In relation to the Syria crisis I seem to recall David Cameron favoured funding refugee camps in the local area - surely that’s a far better solution than absorbing untold numbers of migrants into Europe/the U.K. as Angela Merkel seems to want to do!

EDIT: if said migrants hail from Bromley they should be granted the keys to the kingdom immediately, and have a red carpet rolled out for them .

 

[northwichcat]

Your rants above boil down to childish, badly informed, scaremongering. The only person talking about wars is you!

You’ll find the invention of the aeroplane rather pre dates the existence of the EU (what does that have to do with anything anyway?!).

You’ll also find that international treaties are rather different to contracts. We are one of the few net contributors to the EU which rather puts paid to your nonsense about “screwing over” other countries - it’s this country that is being screwed over.

You also clearly don’t understand how negotiations work.

What was that about an utterly stupid approach?

Well if you don't know the history of Europe I'm not going to post it here. The ability to watch the Gibraltar Straits pre-aeroplanes was crucial for the protection of Europe. We were doing Spain a favour by having military in Gibraltar. That's not the case in 2018.

You said we should leave the EU without following the procedure described in article 50 if EU didn't give in to our demands. The wording of article 50 was written to suit the needs of Eurospectic British politicians. If we don't comply with article 50 we effectively say to every country in the world that any agreement from Britain is worthless and we'll happily screw over any country if we want.

No one has ever produced any concrete evidence that we are being screwed over by the EU so that is nothing more than an opinion you share with Boris and Farage.

 

[Bromley boy]

Well if you don't know the history of Europe I'm not going to post it here. The ability to watch the Gibraltar Straits pre-aeroplanes was crucial for the protection of Europe. We were doing Spain a favour by having military in Gibraltar. That's not the case in 2018.

I honestly don’t know why I entertain your posts, at times!

I’m fully aware of the strategic importance of Gibraltar. It has rather less to do with aeroplanes (the strait is only 8 miles wide ) than the enormous tonnage of seaborne trade which passes through it.

You said we should leave the EU without following the procedure described in article 50 if EU didn't give in to our demands. The wording of article 50 was written to suit the needs of Eurospectic British politicians. If we don't comply with article 50 we effectively say to every country in the world that any agreement from Britain is worthless and we'll happily screw over any country if we want.

Once again, you’re completely misrepresenting my position! I said that repudiating the relevant treaties and crashing out should have been deployed as a negotiating position - one which the government should have been prepared to follow through with.

I hope to god you never buy a house or a car with your style of negotiation - always be prepared to walk away!

No one has ever produced any concrete evidence that we are being screwed over by the EU so that is nothing more than an opinion you share with Boris and Farage.

The evidence being that we are one of the (very) few net contributors to it. As such we are (or were) in a very strong bargaining position. Good luck getting Italy or Greece to stump up billions in cash, should they choose to leave...

 

[northwichcat]

Or how about:

“Here looking for work... You mean you have no job to go to?
Well it’s straight back onto the aeroplane with you, then!”.

The same situation as exists in most countries world wide.

Most countries also have the ridiculous situation where you can be engaged to someone but not allowed to remain in the same country as your fiance but once you get married you can move in and be allowed to work, get healthcare etc. A nightmare for genuine couples and an open loophole for those wanting to get in to the country.

 

[Bromley boy]

Most countries also have the ridiculous situation where you can be engaged to someone but not allowed to remain in the same country as your fiance but once you get married you can move in and be allowed to work, get healthcare etc. A nightmare for genuine couples and an open loophole for those wanting to get in to the country.

Tough luck, I’m afraid! Being “engaged” means precisely nothing.

The system has been abused far too much. In my view anyone being admitted to this country, even as a spouse, should be, as a bare minimum:

1. Able to speak the language;
2. Able to do some form of job;
3. Conversant with the values we live by in this country, and prepared to adopt them.

 

[northwichcat]

@Bromley boy You said we should abandon the article 50 process in an earlier post. Perhaps check the meaning of the word abandon before you use it in future. You also said nothing had changed over Gibraltar in 300 years. It's not that I'm misrepresenting you, you're either not thinking before you post or you refuse to admit you overlooked things after they are pointed out to you. It's almost like you've got a 7 year old kid with you who posts half your posts for you, then when I try to explain something the 7 year old kid doesn't understand, you return and take offence that I'm explaining something you already know.

 

[northwichcat]

Tough luck, I’m afraid! Being “engaged” means precisely nothing.

The system has been abused far too much. In my view anyone being admitted to this country, even as a spouse, should be, as a bare minimum:

1. Able to speak the language;
2. Able to do some form of job;
3. Conversant with the values we live by in this country, and prepared to adopt them.

So what do you think about the 1982 cut off whereby someone born in a former British territory like Hong Kong or Canada in 1981 can claim British citizenship and can come here even if they don't have a job but someone born in 1983 can't?

 

[Bromley boy]

@Bromley boy You said we should abandon the article 50 process in an earlier post. Perhaps check the meaning of the word abandon before you use it in future. You also said nothing had changed over Gibraltar in 300 years. It's not that I'm misrepresenting you, you're either not thinking before you post or you refuse to admit you overlooked things after they are pointed out to you. It's almost like you've got a 7 year old kid with you who posts half your posts for you, then when I try to explain something the 7 year old kid doesn't understand, you return and take offence that I'm explaining something you already know.

Get a grip!

Once again you are lying and wilfully misrepresenting things - what I actually said was:

I rather imagine the EU would have been persuaded to compromise at an earlier stage if the U.K. government had threatened (and meant it) to abandon the article 50 process and unilaterally repeal the EU treaties, no exit bill, no more contributions...

You are dragging this down into a slagging match once again. Maybe you should stick to debating with 7 year old kids. I’m here to exchange views with adults!

You should note that I also debate these same issues in real life with highly educated, intelligent people from a range of backgrounds. I disagree with many of them but, funnily enough, they can respect and respond to an alternative point of view far more maturely than you can .

@Howardh has a different viewpoint to me but is mature enough to debate it sensibly.

Please can you get over the personal point scoring and contribute something more constructive?

 

[Bromley boy]

So what do you think about the 1982 cut off whereby someone born in a former British territory like Hong Kong or Canada in 1981 can claim British citizenship and can come here even if they don't have a job but someone born in 1983 can't?

I have no particular view on it.

I’m not sure how it’s relevant to what we are discussing here?

 

[SilentGrade]

I hope to god you never buy a house or a car with your style of negotiation - always be prepared to walk away!

Are you actually aware of what no deal would mean?

 

[Bromley boy]

Are you actually aware of what no deal would mean?

Yes! It would be disastrous for both the U.K. and the EU. To be clear, despite @jcollins misrepresentations, that has never been my desired outcome.

Nonetheless I’ve been around long enough to realise that a little brinkmanship is key to any negotiation.

 

[mmh]

But maybe EU citizens will still be allowed to take up jobs in the UK without having a work permit.

Why? Who would that benefit?

 

[SilentGrade]

Yes! It would be disastrous for both the U.K. and the EU. To be clear, despite @jcollins misrepresentations, that has never been my desired outcome.

Nonetheless I’ve been around long enough to realise that a little brinkmanship is key to any negotiation.

But you’ve just demonstrated why it is useless as a negotiating tactic. It would be so politically toxic, I think it would destroy the conservatives for decades. The EU know that. The only way there will be no deal is if the EU ‘force’ us into that, not because it’s something seriously entertained by the UK government.

 

[PHILIPE]

I think Theresa May was being backed into a corner having to adjust due to Hard Brexit ideas from Brexiteers, Johnson & Co, the Remoaners in her own and other parties, the losers who didn't like the result of the referendum and instead of accepting the democratic result doing their best to make things awkward and, of course, the unelected fogies in the Lords. I am not supporting Theresa May as she is one of the worst Prime Ministers we have ever had but I still have sympathy for her on this score. It may have been preferable, especially in view of the difficulties that have been encountered, that the negotiating team should have been an independent cross party group selected from all parties and all committed to respectably deliver the best Brexit whatever their personal views. I have noted from a newspaper today that Labour is now ahead in the polls but this would give us the choice of electing the "devil we know" as being preferable to not knowing exactly how it would be if governed by a Marxist party having not previously experienced it. The referendum would probably have been much easier to navigate if it been held when it should have been 30/40 years ago when it was decided the Common Market was going be turned into a political organisation.

 

[mmh]

The really strange thing here is people arguing that the reason we shouldn't become the insular island they predict is to protect a remnant of the insular British empire as part of Britain.

 

[radamfi]

Why? Who would that benefit?

We are trying to guess what "mobility framework" could mean in practice. Have you got a different idea?

 

[mmh]

Most countries also have the ridiculous situation where you can be engaged to someone but not allowed to remain in the same country as your fiance but once you get married you can move in and be allowed to work, get healthcare etc. A nightmare for genuine couples and an open loophole for those wanting to get in to the country.

Exactly how it should be. Being engaged is just something you say to each other, completely meaningless to anyone else.

 

[AlterEgo]

Suggestions of going to war with Spain have been the highlight of this thread’s recent history. That’s such a far-out and bizarre thing to say I’m amused. Keep going chaps.

 

[Busaholic]

Prediction time:- first Cabinet resignation will be David Davis. He may even go before Esther McVey is forced to!

 

[mmh]

That latter sentence is, of course, nothing to do with the EU except (before people point it out) they could accept migrants from outside the EU and then place (dump) them with us. Example...refugees. After Brexit do we completely turn our backs on those willing to lose their lives crossing the seas in search of a better life in the EU?

Apparently you're supposed to claim asylum in the first country you get to. It's next to impossible to impossible to reach either Britain or Ireland without crossing a port. The EU doesn't seem to like that, but both countries are still islands.

 

[HSTEd]

Prediction time:- first Cabinet resignation will be David Davis. He may even go before Esther McVey is forced to!

There is next to no chance of Ester McVey being forced to resign.

She is too useful to the prime minister where she is.

 

[nlogax]

Prediction time:- first Cabinet resignation will be David Davis. He may even go before Esther McVey is forced to!

Rumour is he's just quit.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/08/david-davis-resigns-as-brexit-secretary-reports-say

 

[Busaholic]

Rumour is he's just quit.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/08/david-davis-resigns-as-brexit-secretary-reports-say

More than rumour! Now, if only my lottery predictions were as good.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Is the new tory party mantra, 'quit when the going gets tough'. Suppose not as May is in post.

Looking more and more like a shambles every day. Nobody knows what they want. The brexit politicians seem to be insisting on a total cut off from EU when during the referendum a lot of brexit politicians were saying we could follow the norway or Switzerland models as response to concerns about trade and access to services.

Less than a year to go and I have zero confidence in the government achieving anything good. While im not a supporter of brexit i thought at least the government would make a decent go of it.

 

[EM2]

In my view anyone being admitted to this country, even as a spouse, should be, as a bare minimum:
...
2. Able to do some form of job;
...

And if they are ill, disabled or simply old?

 

[Domh245]

Less than a year to go and I have zero confidence in the government achieving anything good. While im not a supporter of brexit i thought at least the government would make a decent go of it.

More pressingly, only a few months to agree the deal as it needs to be ratified by the various bodies of the EU. And there are rumours abound that enough letters have been submitted to the 1922 committee to force a new Tory leader - tick tock.

 

[northwichcat]

Get a grip!

Once again you are lying and wilfully misrepresenting things - what I actually said was:

You are dragging this down into a slagging match once again. Maybe you should stick to debating with 7 year old kids. I’m here to exchange views with adults!

You should note that I also debate these same issues in real life with highly educated, intelligent people from a range of backgrounds. I disagree with many of them but, funnily enough, they can respect and respond to an alternative point of view far more maturely than you can .

@Howardh has a different viewpoint to me but is mature enough to debate it sensibly.

Please can you get over the personal point scoring and contribute something more constructive?

You set the tone a few weeks ago when you dug out a very old post of mine when I was commenting on the SNP's opinion of the Scottish Independence referendum and used it to claim I contradicted myself when talking about the EU referendum. That was a much more willful misrepresentation of one of my posts than what you are claiming is a willful misrepresentation of your post. You actually did refer to abandoning the article 50 process and no exit bill and no more contributions - that is an illegal breach of a policy we signed up to regarding leaving the EU. Argue all you want about what you think Greece would do if they left but just because you suspect another country would leave the EU illegally doesn't make it the right thing to do. If you want a mature exchange with adults then stop using childish reasoning for justifying your claims.

 

[northwichcat]

I have no particular view on it.

I’m not sure how it’s relevant to what we are discussing here?

You've now given your view on three immigration policies in this thread - one you're strongly against (the one you can blame the EU for), one you can see the disadvantages of but can't think of a better solution (the one you expect us to have post-Brexit) and one where you say you have no opinion (one where there's disadvantages of but they can't be blamed on the EU.) I see a trend here.

 

[DarloRich]

The system has been abused far too much. In my view anyone being admitted to this country, even as a spouse, should be, as a bare minimum:

1. Able to speak the language;
2. Able to do some form of job;
3. Conversant with the values we live by in this country, and prepared to adopt them.

Now I am, apparently, a "social justice warrior (?) snowflake (?) ultra leftist" (?) but i agree. In fact, on point 2 I would go further. Not able to do a job but has a job offer or a sponsor who will provide a job or at the very least a skills assessment that shows the person has skills we as a country need and is equipped to get a job within a defined period.

After Brexit that should be almost anyone