EU Referendum - my vote

[Harbornite]

I agree with this comment wholeheartedly.

There is one side of the referendum that has been forgotten completely.

It's the elephant in the room. No; the elephant across the pond.

If we leave the EU then we will almost certainly become part of NAFTA. It'll escalate from there...we'll end up the USA's lapdog, the 51st state.

Scaremongering? Too far? Well, we're already 'controlled by unelected officials in another country'. Nothing will change. It's just that it'll be less democratic - and the controllers will have more nukes than us.

That's a new reason for voting remain that I haven't heard before. I doubt very much that we would join NAFTA if we left, isn't it limited to North American countries? (Of which there are three).

 

[LateThanNever]

That's a new reason for voting remain that I haven't heard before. I doubt very much that we would join NAFTA if we left, isn't it limited to North American countries? (Of which there are three).

Yes but that could change!
And I do think that leaving the EU would of itself lead us into the ever more overwhelming embrace of the US - something which would be even more dangerous than the EU, where at least we are one of the big three members.

 

[backontrack]

Yes but that could change!
And I do think that leaving the EU would of itself lead us into the ever more overwhelming embrace of the US - something which would be even more dangerous than the EU, where at least we are one of the big three members.

Agreed. Brexiters are also banging on about how we are losing our sovereignty to Europe and that we should 'take it back' - but in reality they'd just give it to the US.

You know of that 'special relationship' that they're all banging on about? Well, that term is unheard of in America. To them we're just people - people that can be exploited.

 

[WestCoast]

Yes but that could change!
And I do think that leaving the EU would of itself lead us into the ever more overwhelming embrace of the US - something which would be even more dangerous than the EU, where at least we are one of the big three members.

I agree. My gut feeling is that we'd end up as part of another club, and not one that allows us to yield as much influence as we can as part of the EU.

I have already voted to remain, nothing during the campaign altered my view.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

My vote is to remain.

Main reasons:

1. We live in an interconnected world. Too many problems need international solutions. Pollution and global warming don't respect borders. Neither does capital, organized crime, terrorism, etc. We need organizations that are able to act at a supranational level to deal with these kinds of issues. I don't think the EU is perfect by a long way, but it's the only organization capable of dealing with European problems on a European level. As one example quite close to my heart, there seems to be broad agreement amongst environmental groups that leaving would make it much harder to protect the environment and to work to avoid climate change.
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2. On immigration, while personally I'd prefer to see a lower level of immigration, the numbers indicate that leaving the EU and abandoning open borders will make only a small difference. And the cost will be less freedom of movement for our own citizens. Many younger people are growing up in a world where borders are becoming less important, and they want to be free to live in different places and explore different cultures. Older UK citizens often go abroad to retire. Leaving risks denying those people that chance, and ultimately denying the reality that world is becoming more international. Better to stay in the EU and work within the EU to resolve those particular issues where open borders isn't working well.
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3. Independence: The idea of taking back control and being independent is IMO a cruel illusion: Trade and the global economy means in practice, countries will always be heavily restricted in how they act, and the smaller the country, the more constrained it will be. The notional legal freedom that leaving the EU will bring us may well in practice leave us with less , not more, ability to control our economy because we'd become a smaller unit, and therefore more vulnerable to - for example - multinational companies threatening to go elsewhere, thereby damaging our economy, if they don't like our tax rates/safety regulations/etc. The much maligned harmonization of the single market actually protects us from that, and allows us to combine reasonable protection for workers with the benefits of free trade: A balancing act that would be much harder outside the EU.
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4. The economy: Almost all those who are paid to understand our economy say that leaving will damage it - causing many to lose their jobs. I don't like the way the remain camp have used this information - there has been much scaremongering - but it remains true that all the best advice we have is that leaving will harm the UK's economy and hurt a lot of people. There's already evidence of this in the way the pound tends to fall every time an opinion poll puts leave ahead, and rise every time a poll puts remain ahead.
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5. Finally, international cooperation is a good thing. The Leave camp complain about decisions being made outside the UK, but my emotional reaction is, so what? Is a civil servant in Brussels really any different from a civil servant in Westminster? I think it's great and we can all be better off if we can put petty historical nationalism behind us and accept that some decisions are best made for the common good at a European level, rather than every country fighting for its own interests at the expense of everyone else's interests. The overall conclusion I draw from all this is, while the EU has many flaws, it's better to work within it - to lead within it, even, to make it better. After all, if we quit, the EU will still be there, and we will have lost our chance to improve it.

Incidentally I'm the (so far, only) person who voted in the poll to say I'd changed my mind. I started, in February, as undecided. Then I went through a brief phase of being so uninspired by both the campaigns, that I resolved to not vote at all in protest. Then I started fact-checking some of the claims made by the rival camps, quickly figured out that much of what Remain was saying was broadly accurate, but most of what Leave was saying was a bunch of lies, distortions and misleading statistics - that moved me into the Remain camp. And when I started looking more deeply at the issues and how the EU works, and thinking about the benefits of international cooperation, that pretty much sealed it for me: To the point that I even ended up doing some leafletting and canvassing locally for the Labour In for Britain campaign.

 

[Steveman]

The poll on here just shows how gloriously out of step with the rest of the population train spotters are.

 

[me123]

I think that's an unfair generalisation. I think this forum is disproportionatley left wing compared to the general population (at least I've got that impression over the years). I think this correlates with the demographics of the membership - rail staff, union members, younger people...

I think it is a reflection of the demographics of the forum and to say that "trainspotters are out of touch" is a very unfair generalisation. For one thing, lots of forum members are not train spotters.

 

[Mojo]

I think that's an unfair generalisation. I think this forum is disproportionatley left wing compared to the general population (at least I've got that impression over the years). I think this correlates with the demographics of the membership - rail staff, union members, younger people...

I totally agree with you on that; but I think that you may have inadvertently raised another issue, and that is the way that people are voting to remain in the EU because they think that remain is the left wing option and leave is the right wing option, and I think that the Leave campaign haven't capitalised on that effectively, allowing the media to propagate these untruths.

I think it is a reflection of the demographics of the forum and to say that "trainspotters are out of touch" is a very unfair generalisation. For one thing, lots of forum members are not train spotters.

Indeed; it's a significant minority.

 

[Steveman]

Indeed; it's a significant minority.

I doubt it very much.

 

[GatwickDepress]

I presume "out of touch" in this case means "people who disagree with me"?

 

[Steveman]

I presume "out of touch" in this case means "people who disagree with me"?

Not at all, my point was the polling on here is literally miles away from the publicised 50/50 rough split that's all.

 

[TheKnightWho]

The poll on here just shows how gloriously out of step with the rest of the population train spotters are.

No, gloriously out of step with your wishful thinking imagined version of the population.

 

[WatcherZero]

Education has shown to be a major factor, the more educated you are the more likely you are to be for Remain. It could well be shining through that despite the nationalist and sometimes xenophobic rail unions who are generally out of step with all the other unions the users of this board as seekers of knowledge reflect a generally higher educational standard.

Apart from RMT and ASLEF the only other unions supporting leave are the Bakers union (membership 20,000) and Northern Ireland Public Sector Workers (46,000). For a total of around 150,000

That compares with unions totalling 6m supporting Remain
TUC
Broadcasting, Entertainment, Cinematograph and Theatre Union
CWU
Community
Equity
Fire Brigades
GMB
Musicians Union
Royal College of Midwifes
Transport and Salaried Staffs Association
Construction and Allied
Union of shop and distributive workers
Unison
Unite

 

[backontrack]

I doubt it very much.

Well, you're not a trainspotter are you?

 

[ExRes]

Education has shown to be a major factor, the more educated you are the more likely you are to be for Remain. It could well be shining through that despite the nationalist and sometimes xenophobic rail unions who are generally out of step with all the other unions the users of this board as seekers of knowledge reflect a generally higher educational standard.

Apart from RMT and ASLEF the only other unions supporting leave are the Bakers union (membership 20,000) and Northern Ireland Public Sector Workers (46,000). For a total of around 150,000

That compares with unions totalling 6m supporting Remain
TUC
Broadcasting, Entertainment, Cinematograph and Theatre Union
CWU
Community
Equity
Fire Brigades
GMB
Musicians Union
Royal College of Midwifes
Transport and Salaried Staffs Association
Construction and Allied
Union of shop and distributive workers
Unison
Unite

Why are you quoting membership numbers as though they mean something?, do you really think that a 6m 'remain' union membership is going to vote remain because a union says so?, do you really think a 150000 'leave' membership are going to vote leave because a union says so?