EU, Immigration and UKIP

[Antman]

I am not proposing we prevent such migration deliberately, as you well understand. Simply suggesting that you are objecting to migration simply on where the migrants come from

This is making no sense whatsoever given that you cannot physically prevent people moving around the UK

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Oh come on that's ridiculous, you cannot possibly prevent people from moving from one part of the country to another

Not at all. in fact, Theresa May is proposing exactly what you are saying you can't do - although only for terrorism suspects, not for the bulk of the population. Meanwhile, in St. Ives, the local council is considering trying to prevent outsiders from buying 2nd homes there - not exactly the same thing but clearly nodding towards it.

On a much larger scale, for several decades China had its Hukou system designed to prevent internal migration, although many (not all) of those restrictions have now been removed.

So there's no reason in principle why a country can't have internal migration controls - although in practice, I'd imagine in the UK such a move would be very unpopular, and any party that seriously proposed doing so for the bulk of the population would be very quickly voted out of office! (And for the record, I am NOT saying I think it's a good idea, merely pointing out that it is perfectly possible in principle).
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This is making no sense whatsoever given that you cannot physically prevent people moving around the UK

Now that I have given examples that demonstrate that it is possible in principle to have internal migration controls, would you be willing to explain how you would reconcile your statement 'it's not about race it's about space' with your apparent support for controlling migration into the SE only for foreigners coming from abroad, not for people coming from other parts of the UK?

 

[Antman]

Not at all. in fact, Theresa May is proposing exactly what you are saying you can't do - although only for terrorism suspects, not for the bulk of the population. Meanwhile, in St. Ives, the local council is considering trying to prevent outsiders from buying 2nd homes there - not exactly the same thing but clearly nodding towards it.

On a much larger scale, for several decades China had its Hukou system designed to prevent internal migration, although many (not all) of those restrictions have now been removed.

So there's no reason in principle why a country can't have internal migration controls - although in practice, I'd imagine in the UK such a move would be very unpopular, and any party that seriously proposed doing so for the bulk of the population would be very quickly voted out of office! (And for the record, I am NOT saying I think it's a good idea, merely pointing out that it is perfectly possible in principle).
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Now that I have given examples that demonstrate that it is possible in principle to have internal migration controls, would you be willing to explain how you would reconcile your statement 'it's not about race it's about space' with your apparent support for controlling migration into the SE only for foreigners coming from abroad, not for people coming from other parts of the UK?

I can only repeat that you cannot prevent people moving to London and the south east from other parts of the country.

Aside from that you obviously cannot allow unlimited immigration to continue into any country.

 

[TheKnightWho]

I can only repeat that you cannot prevent people moving to London and the south east from other parts of the country.

Aside from that you obviously cannot allow unlimited immigration to continue into any country.

Yes, you can. That's exactly what he's been talking about.

The fact that you think it's a bad idea sort of proves his point.

 

[Antman]

Yes, you can. That's exactly what he's been talking about.

The fact that you think it's a bad idea sort of proves his point.

Oh maybe I've got it wrong? Perhaps you could kindly explain how you would realistically prevent people migrating to the south east from other parts of the UK............this should be good!

 

[NSEFAN]

Oh maybe I've got it wrong? Perhaps you could kindly explain how you would realistically prevent people migrating to the south east from other parts of the UK............this should be good!

You could always add restrictions onto who can buy/rent property? I.E. you can't get a place unless you're already living in "the south-east" (however you want to define that).

 

[Johnuk123]

I'd like to see any Govt. propose a system where everybody is only allowed to move house with Govt. approval.
The ideas proposed are pure fantasy, by quoting China shows the political direction someone is going in.

 

[EM2]

So there's no reason in principle why a country can't have internal migration controls ?

Set out your idea for making the population of this country live where they are told to.

Well, here's one possibility: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hukou_system#Household_registration_in_China that was mentioned earlier.

The Communist Party instigated a command economy when it came to power in 1949. In 1958, the Chinese government officially promulgated the family register system to control the movement of people between urban and rural areas. Individuals were broadly categorised as a "rural" or "urban" worker.[9] A worker seeking to move from the country to urban areas to take up non-agricultural work would have to apply through the relevant bureaucracies. The number of workers allowed to make such moves was tightly controlled. Migrant workers would require six passes to work in provinces other than their own.[10] People who worked outside their authorized domain or geographical area would not qualify for grain rations, employer-provided housing, or health care.[11] There were controls over education, employment, marriage and so on.[9]
Rationale

With its large rural population of poor farm workers, hukou limited mass migration from the land to the cities to ensure some structural stability. The hukou system was an instrument of the command economy. By regulating labour, it ensured an adequate supply of low cost workers to the plethora of state owned businesses.[12] Like the internal passports of the Soviet Union, the hukou system allowed the state to provide preferential treatment to industrial workers and intelligentsia who would be more likely to protest and even revolt during periods of unrest.[citation needed]

For some time, the Chinese Ministry of Public Security continued to justify the hukou system on public order grounds, and also provided demographic data for government central planning.[13]

The Hukou system has been justified by some scholars as increasing the stability of China by better monitoring of "targeted persons", people who are politically dubious by the Party's standards. This is still a significant function as of 2006.[14] Prior to the Chinese economic reform that began in the late 1970s, the system succeeded in limiting population growth in the cities.[15]
Enforcement

From around 1953 to 1976, police periodically rounded up those who were without valid residence permits, placed them in detention centres, and expelled them from cities.[16]

Administration regulations issued in 1982 known as "custody and repatriation" authorized police to detain people, and "repatriate" them to their permanent residency location.[citation needed]

Although an individual is technically required to live in the area designated on his/her permit, in practice the system has largely broken down[citation needed]. After the Chinese economic reforms, it became possible for some[who?] to unofficially migrate and get a job without a valid permit[citation needed]. Economic reforms also created pressures to encourage migration from the interior to the coast[citation needed]. It also provided incentives for officials not to enforce regulations on migration.

Technology has made it easier to enforce the Hukou system as now the police force has a national database of official Hukou registrations. This was made possible by computerisation in the 1990s, as well as greater co-operation between the different regional police authorities.[14]
During the Great Leap Forward's famine

During the mass famine of the Great Leap Forward from 1958 to 1962, having an urban versus a rural hukou could mean the difference between life and death.[17] During this period, nearly all of the approximately 600 million rural hukou residents were collectivized into village communal farms, where their agricultural output - after state taxes - would be their only source of food. With institutionalized exaggeration of output figures by local Communist leaders and massive declines in production, state taxes during those years confiscated nearly all food in many rural communes, leading to mass starvation and the deaths of more than 30 million Chinese.[18]

The 100 million urban hukou residents, however, were fed by fixed food rations established by the central government, which declined to an average of 1500 calories per day at times but still allowed survival for almost all during the famine. An estimated 95% or higher of all deaths occurred among rural hukou holders. With the suppression of news internally, many city residents were not aware that mass deaths were occurring in the countryside at all, which was essential to preventing organized opposition to Mao's policies.[19]

Many of the starving peasants tried to flee to the cities to beg for food, but tight security at entry points and through regular inspections of resident documents on the streets led to the deportation and subsequent death of most. In fact, it was only when rural family members of higher military officers, who were often isolated from the countryside in cities or bases, began dying from starvation that higher Communist officials began seriously worrying about the stability of the state, and eventually forced Mao to end the program. This was the most extreme demonstration of how much impact a different hukou could have in China, but significant interference in all aspects of life only began declining in the 1980s and 1990s.
Effect on rural workers

The hukou system is closely associated with social issues regarding migration in China and excludes migrant workers, also known as farm workers or peasant workers, from city-wide social welfares in urban areas.[20] From around 1953 to 1976, the restriction of a citizen's rights by his domicile caused rural citizens to be separated into an underclass. Urban citizens enjoyed a range of social, economic and cultural benefits that China's rural citizens did not receive.[12] The ruling party did however make some concessions to rural workers to make life in rural areas more tolerable.[21]

From 1978 to 2001, while China changed from state socialism to market socialism, export-processing zones were created in city suburbs and migrants, most of them female,[22] worked there under conditions far below the contemporary standard of western countries.[10][21] There were restrictions upon the mobility of migrant workers that forced them to live precarious lives in company dormitories or shanty towns where they were exposed to abusive treatment.[23]

The impact of the hukou system upon migrant laborers became onerous in the 1980s after hundreds of millions were ejected from state corporations and cooperatives.[10] Since the 1980s, an estimated 200 million Chinese live outside their officially registered areas and under far less eligibility to education and government services, living therefore in a condition similar in many ways to that of illegal immigrants.[12] The millions of peasants who have left their land remain trapped at the margins of the urban society. They are often blamed for rising crime and unemployment and under pressure from their citizens, the city governments have imposed discriminatory rules.[9] For example, the children of farm workers (Chinese: 农民工; pinyin: nóngmín gōng) are not allowed to enroll in the city schools, and even now must live with their grandparents or other relatives in order to attend school in their hometowns. They are commonly referred to as the home-staying children. There are around 130 million such home-staying children, living without their parents, as reported by Chinese researchers.[24]

I'm not saying it's right, just that it's possible.

 

[Johnuk123]

Well, here's one possibility: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hukou_system#Household_registration_in_China that was mentioned earlier.


I'm not saying it's right, just that it's possible.

Of course it's possible but not in this country unless we get a similar political party to the Communist one.

 

[EM2]

I'd like to see any Govt. propose a system where everybody is only allowed to move house with Govt. approval.
The ideas proposed are pure fantasy, by quoting China shows the political direction someone is going in.

No-one is proposing them, they are merely pointing out that these systems have been used in the past to control internal migration, something it has been said can't be done.
If 'it's not about race, it's about space', you'd be happy if migrants all went to Cornwall, or rural Wales, or the Scottish Highlands?

 

[radamfi]

Jersey has freedom of movement with the UK, so in theory any British citizen can move to Jersey, but buying or renting a property is heavily restricted unless you pay top dollar. So in general, the only option for newcomers from the UK is to rent a room.

 

[jon0844]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/next-christmas-jobs-offered-polish-4709994

Written as if nobody knew this was going on. I've been saying this for ages.

I don't want out of the EU at all, but we need to stop this - if only to stop the exploitation of these workers.

It's quite amazing that UKIP makes out that these people are taking advantage of us, when it's quite obvious that we're taking advantage of them. And as long as we continue to do so, obviously we'll have plenty more people coming here.

Ultimately, if the pay was the same for everyone, these businesses would prefer (for the most part) to employ locally, and not spend money paying foreign agencies that have to organise travel and accommodation etc.

Why do that if someone down the road who lives here already, has a bank account etc, and is ready to work tomorrow - and isn't going to leave after saving a certain amount, unknown to the employer?

So we can fix the problem by stopping these businesses trying to take us back to Victorian times and we must all, surely, benefit?

 

[Antman]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/next-christmas-jobs-offered-polish-4709994

Written as if nobody knew this was going on. I've been saying this for ages.

I don't want out of the EU at all, but we need to stop this - if only to stop the exploitation of these workers.

It's quite amazing that UKIP makes out that these people are taking advantage of us, when it's quite obvious that we're taking advantage of them. And as long as we continue to do so, obviously we'll have plenty more people coming here.

Ultimately, if the pay was the same for everyone, these businesses would prefer (for the most part) to employ locally, and not spend money paying foreign agencies that have to organise travel and accommodation etc.

Why do that if someone down the road who lives here already, has a bank account etc, and is ready to work tomorrow - and isn't going to leave after saving a certain amount, unknown to the employer?

So we can fix the problem by stopping these businesses trying to take us back to Victorian times and we must all, surely, benefit?

As I said before, migrants will accept these minimum wage cr@p jobs because it's better than what's on offer in their own country. They are driving wages down and pushing house prices up and it is the poorest members of the indigenous population who are suffering. The 'Tory toffs' with a string of properties and businesses are laughing all the way to the bank but some people seem unable or unwilling to see this.

 

[radamfi]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/next-christmas-jobs-offered-polish-4709994

I don't click on 'news'paper websites, but I can guess what it says by the URL. Is there a non-'news'paper link anywhere?

 

[jon0844]

I don't click on 'news'paper websites, but I can guess what it says by the URL. Is there a non-'news'paper link anywhere?

I am no fan of the Mirror, Express, Mail, Guardian etc, but it's not that much hardship to click on the link is it?

Sure it's slanted, but you can read between the lines and remove the leftwing bias. The poll about whether we give jobs to British people over foreigners is ridiculous (there's no 'the best candidate' option) as if you made companies pay a fair wage and not take advantage of some people, you'd then put people on a level playing field.

Some bits;

A former Next worker has revealed that cheap Polish staff are being bussed in to the firm’s warehouse after getting jobs in an area where local unemployment is high.

Paul Crowcroft spoke as a Mirror *investigation found Eastern Europeans were being shipped over to fill the minimum wage posts weeks before they are even advertised here in Britain.

One Warsaw agency told how Next, run by Tory peer and donor Lord Wolfson, has already recruited 7,000 staff from Poland, who earn much less at home than here.

“The Poles were being exploited but they didn’t seem to mind because they were getting more money here than they would have done at home.”

He told how pay started at £6.50 an hour, 20% less than Next’s full-time staff get. But that is up to four times more than the same job would pay in Poland.

Mr Wolinski added: “If you become a contract worker, which means you get a permanent job after our three months’ contract, you can receive a 20% higher salary.”

In fact, under British law, agency workers are entitled to the same pay and conditions as full timers after 12 weeks doing the same job.

Flame began arranging a string of buses direct from Warsaw to the South Elmsall warehouse this month, charging workers £100 a head.

It finds staff places to stay with “no more than two people in a room” and rents of £50 to £65 a week.

 

[radamfi]

I am no fan of the Mirror, Express, Mail, Guardian etc, but it's not that much hardship to click on the link is it?

I don't want to give them extra page views, in case they get extra revenue from it.

 

[jon0844]

I don't want to give them extra page views, in case they get extra revenue from it.

Fair enough I suppose.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

As I said before, migrants will accept these minimum wage cr@p jobs because it's better than what's on offer in their own country. They are driving wages down and pushing house prices up and it is the poorest members of the indigenous population who are suffering. The 'Tory toffs' with a string of properties and businesses are laughing all the way to the bank but some people seem unable or unwilling to see this.

I haven't seen any indication in anyone's posts here of anyone being 'unable or unwilling to see this'. Personally, I'm very well aware of the problem. Where I disagree with you is that I think there are much better solutions than simply imposing more bureaucratic regulation that controls the lives of foreigners - which is what immigration control ultimate amounts to. In particular, I think the ideas being promoted by the Labour leadership - of cracking down much more on employers who abuse employment and minimum wage legislation to employ migrants on conditions that would never be tolerated by UK workers, and in particular outlawing the practice of advertising jobs abroad before they are advertised here, are very sensible, since that would remove most the incentive that unscrupulous employers have to bring in migrants so they can exploit them.

(EDIT: Also, I think you (and UKIP) often exaggerate problems - while problems exist, they don't exist to the extent that UKIP make out).

 

[Oswyntail]

...cracking down much more on employers who abuse employment and minimum wage legislation to employ migrants on conditions that would never be tolerated by UK workers...

As often, the problem is poor enforcement of what we have rather than a need for tougher controls.

 

[Antman]

I haven't seen any indication in anyone's posts here of anyone being 'unable or unwilling to see this'. Personally, I'm very well aware of the problem. Where I disagree with you is that I think there are much better solutions than simply imposing more bureaucratic regulation that controls the lives of foreigners - which is what immigration control ultimate amounts to. In particular, I think the ideas being promoted by the Labour leadership - of cracking down much more on employers who abuse employment and minimum wage legislation to employ migrants on conditions that would never be tolerated by UK workers, and in particular outlawing the practice of advertising jobs abroad before they are advertised here, are very sensible, since that would remove most the incentive that unscrupulous employers have to bring in migrants so they can exploit them.

But as far as I'm aware these unscrupulous employers are not doing anything illegal?

 

[EM2]

As I said before, migrants will accept these minimum wage cr@p jobs because it's better than what's on offer in their own country. They are driving wages down and pushing house prices up and it is the poorest members of the indigenous population who are suffering. The 'Tory toffs' with a string of properties and businesses are laughing all the way to the bank but some people seem unable or unwilling to see this.

Why are the indigenous population not willing to work for £6.50 an hour? Every time I see a programme on TV about unemployed Brits, they all say 'I don't care what I do, I'll clean toilets, anything. I just want to work'. That's obviously not the case, because if it was, there'd be no jobs for migrant workers.

 

[deltic]

As I said before, migrants will accept these minimum wage cr@p jobs because it's better than what's on offer in their own country. They are driving wages down and pushing house prices up and it is the poorest members of the indigenous population who are suffering. The 'Tory toffs' with a string of properties and businesses are laughing all the way to the bank but some people seem unable or unwilling to see this.

If they are on minimum wages that UK citizens wont accept how is that driving down wages - and if they are on minimum wages how is that pushing up house prices. Most recent immigrants are higher qualified than UK citizens and many are earning far more than the minimum wage. In parts of our business it is a rarity to see a job application from a UK national.

We need to raise educational standards in this country and expand apprenticeships so our young people have a chance of getting a decent job with a future.

 

[radamfi]

BBC News today are reporting that Recruitment and Employment Confederation says there is a big skills shortage.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Why are the indigenous population not willing to work for £6.50 an hour? Every time I see a programme on TV about unemployed Brits, they all say 'I don't care what I do, I'll clean toilets, anything. I just want to work'. That's obviously not the case, because if it was, there'd be no jobs for migrant workers.

In part that'll be because jobs aren't merely minimum wage, they are also only part time. A good example is some cleaning jobs in central London: You might be paid minimum wage to work perhaps 2 hours a day, Mon-Fri. So you earn £13 a day, and - because the job is in central London, you could end up spending more time travelling to work than you spend working. I doubt many UK people would be willing to do that.

Why do the agencies who employ these workers get away with it? In part, because a lot of immigrants are on visas that allow them to work, but don't allow them to claim any benefits. If your choice is between working and not eating, then you'll accept almost anything! Ironically, the demands to clampdown on benefits tourism by making more EU migrants ineligible to claim benefits could well make this problem worse.

 

[Antman]

If they are on minimum wages that UK citizens wont accept how is that driving down wages - and if they are on minimum wages how is that pushing up house prices. Most recent immigrants are higher qualified than UK citizens and many are earning far more than the minimum wage. In parts of our business it is a rarity to see a job application from a UK national.

We need to raise educational standards in this country and expand apprenticeships so our young people have a chance of getting a decent job with a future.

Surely it is obvious how they are driving down wages and pushing housing costs up? It is often a myth that British people won't do these jobs, they certainly will if they pay a bit more than minimum wage. Highly qualified people doing jobs for which there is a shortage of qualified British applicants are a completely different kettle of fish
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In part that'll be because jobs aren't merely minimum wage, they are also only part time. A good example is some cleaning jobs in central London: You might be paid minimum wage to work perhaps 2 hours a day, Mon-Fri. So you earn £13 a day, and - because the job is in central London, you could end up spending more time travelling to work than you spend working. I doubt many UK people would be willing to do that.

Why do the agencies who employ these workers get away with it? In part, because a lot of immigrants are on visas that allow them to work, but don't allow them to claim any benefits. If your choice is between working and not eating, then you'll accept almost anything! Ironically, the demands to clampdown on benefits tourism by making more EU migrants ineligible to claim benefits could well make this problem worse.

There has also been a big increase in zero hours jobs, you have to be available if and when the employers wants you, it's little more than slavery.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Why are the indigenous population not willing to work for £6.50 an hour?

They are willing to work for £6.50 an hour. But many immigrants will work for less than that; they'll work for less than the minimum wage. And employers will go for them because they're less likely to kick up a fuss and demand things like safety equipment and adequate accommodation.

See the Chinese cockle-pickers in Morecambe Bay for further details.

BBC News today are reporting that Recruitment and Employment Confederation says there is a big skills shortage.

They say that every year. And every year it is shown to be a big steaming pile of nonsense, as you'd expect from the lobbying group for temping agencies.

 

[gordonthemoron]

another reason for rising property prices is landlords buying HMOs for letting out to expat workers
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and Chinese nationals buying investment properties and leaving them empty

 

[EM2]

They are willing to work for £6.50 an hour. But many immigrants will work for less than that; they'll work for less than the minimum wage. And employers will go for them because they're less likely to kick up a fuss and demand things like safety equipment and adequate accommodation.

See the Chinese cockle-pickers in Morecambe Bay for further details.

I'm talking specifically about the link than Jon posted earlier, regarding Next, and Antman's response, that

migrants will accept these minimum wage cr@p jobs

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Surely it is obvious how they are driving down wages and pushing housing costs up? It is often a myth that British people won't do these jobs, they certainly will if they pay a bit more than minimum wage. Highly qualified people doing jobs for which there is a shortage of qualified British applicants are a completely different kettle of fish

For years before we had a minimum wage, British people were doing these jobs, and for a lot less than the equivalent of the minimum wage at that time (my first job was in a hotel cellar for about about £2 an hour, if I remember rightly, which is equivalent to £5.12 an hour now).
When did they get so high-and-mighty that it was beneath them?

 

[Wyvern]

So did you have to pay rent as well as buy food?

 

[EM2]

So did you have to pay rent as well as buy food?

I had to pay 'bed and board' to my Mum, yes. Then, when I got a better-paid job, I moved into a bedsit and had to fend for myself, and had to work sixty hours a week to make ends meet.