ETCS TB2 live today on GWML

[rd749249]

From 12.40 today after the possession is lifted, trains will operate in level 2 from just east of Ealing Broadway to Stockley Junction though today, trains terminate at Ealing Broadway and don’t go to Heathrow.

There are intermediate transition points at Southall and Hayes & Harlington for trains starting within these sections, or where initial transitions failed.

Looking forward to tomorrow morning’s service to see the full effect of this.

 

[800301]

From 12.40 today after the possession is lifted, trains will operate in level 2 from just east of Ealing Broadway to Stockley Junction though today, trains terminate at Ealing Broadway and don’t go to Heathrow.

There are intermediate transition points at Southall and Hayes & Harlington for trains starting within these sections, or where initial transitions failed.

Looking forward to tomorrow morning’s service to see the full effect of this.

This will only be in use on Class 345’s and Class 387air (Hex), everything else will still be running in ATP/AWS/TPWS

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Is the intention to extend this to Paddington?

 

[JN114]

Is the intention to extend this to Paddington?

Longer term, yes it is ultimately intended to replace GW-ATP with it. Not sure if all phases are funded though yet.

 

[800301]

This morning there seemed to be an issue with Class 345 trains failing to Transition, seems they are currently not running to Heathrow

 

[PlexiDriver]

Well that went well ...

 

[D365]

Sounds like a busy day for ETCS rollout; I understand that Class 717s are now operating under ETCS Level 2, in passenger service, between Finsbury Park and Moorgate.

 

[Occtraveller]

Looks like some fettling is required:

"Network Rail Western @networkrail... 1h

? Travelling to Heathrow?

There will be an amended timetable operating on Tuesday 28 November because of an issue with the way trains communicate with signals."

https://twitter.com/networkrailwest/status/1729197637239558390

 

[Deepgreen]

Sigh... The railway's fragility is enhanced yet again...

 

[yorkshireguy21]

Is there any reason as to why the GWR 80x aren’t using ETCS between this section?

 

[rmt4ever]

Is there any reason as to why the GWR 80x aren’t using ETCS between this section?

Maybe because its clearly knackered

 

[JN114]

Is there any reason as to why the GWR 80x aren’t using ETCS between this section?

In short, the two systems aren’t compatible.

GW-ATP is fitted to a much wider area geographically than ETCS at present; so it ends up as the preferred system.

Neither the 38Hs or 345s had GW-ATP, and it can work in concert with TPWS, so that’s why they’re now using it.

 

[TurboMan]

Is there any reason as to why the GWR 80x aren’t using ETCS between this section?

Because there is no way of transitioning dynamically between ATP and ETCS. So ATP will likely be around until ETCS is implemented over all routes currently fitted with ATP, as using a lower class of safety system such as TPWS instead of ATP would not be permitted.

 

[Railsigns]

using a lower class of safety system such as TPWS instead of ATP would not be permitted.

Yet the ATP system on the Chiltern Line was decommissioned earlier this year, with TPWS protection being beefed up to compensate.

 

[TurboMan]

Maybe because its clearly knackered

Not really. The issues with Crossrail were identified quite soon after they happened as being down to a small number of units running the wrong software version, while the GWR 387s had an issue with a loss of RBC connection on the down main at Hanwell, but were able to run on the down Relief (and back on the Up main). So while there were significant issues and delays, there was quite a lot that went right, including trains running into/ out of West Ealing LMD in OS.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Nov 2023 ==

Yet the ATP system on the Chiltern Line was decommissioned earlier this year, with TPWS protection being beefed up to compensate.

The difference is the line speed - much lower line speed on Chiltern.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

What’s the difference? Is ECTS moving block?

 

[Snow1964]

Because there is no way of transitioning dynamically between ATP and ETCS. So ATP will likely be around until ETCS is implemented over all routes currently fitted with ATP, as using a lower class of safety system such as TPWS instead of ATP would not be permitted.

In practice as the system is extended, can transition at a lower line speed where the TPWS+ already exists, so a temporary speed restriction can be used.

Obviously easier if your make your phased transitions points where line speed is lower.

Ultimately the remaining section of ATP is now even more non-standard as percentage of the route, so when converted is one less thing to maintain.

 

[800301]

In practice as the system is extended, can transition at a lower line speed where the TPWS+ already exists, so a temporary speed restriction can be used.

Obviously easier if your make your phased transitions points where line speed is lower.

Ultimately the remaining section of ATP is now even more non-standard as percentage of the route, so when converted is one less thing to maintain.

To change an 800 from ATP to ETCS, you have to currently turn at least 2 isolation switches on the back wall, which obviously you can’t do on the move

 

[cool110]

What’s the difference? Is ECTS moving block?

Moving block is only at Level 3. Level 2 is GSM-R based cab signalling on top of the existing interlocking, which is why non-fitted trains can still use AWS/TPWS at the same time.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

Is there any reason as to why the GWR 80x aren’t using ETCS between this section?

The vast majority of drivers haven’t been trained on it at this point.

How on earth does that work when there are no block marker boards? I suppose just using current signals for now.

 

[800301]

The vast majority of drivers haven’t been trained on it at this point.

How on earth does that work when there are no block marker boards? I suppose just using current signals for now.

It has nothing to do with training, as mentioned above, 800's can't transition on the move from ATP to ETCS and therefore will remain in ATP. Colour light signals will be staying for some time yet as it's just an overlay system, eventually, if the government/NR don't run out of money like they seem to do everywhere else and ETCS is rolled out throughout the network, the signals in due course could be removed and replaced with block marker boards but that will be a while yet, the next stage of the rollout will be from Paddington to Ealing Broadway which I assume will only take place when Old Oak Common opens

 

[43096]

It has nothing to do with training, as mentioned above, 800's can't transition on the move from ATP to ETCS and therefore will remain in ATP. Colour light signals will be staying for some time yet as it's just an overlay system, eventually, if the government/NR don't run out of money like they seem to do everywhere else and ETCS is rolled out throughout the network, the signals in due course could be removed and replaced with block marker boards

So currently that stretch of line is running with four train protection systems (AWS, TPWS, GW-ATP, ETCS)? Sounds like a recipe for unreliability.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

It has nothing to do with training, as mentioned above, 800's can't transition on the move from ATP to ETCS and therefore will remain in ATP. Colour light signals will be staying for some time yet as it's just an overlay system, eventually, if the government/NR don't run out of money like they seem to do everywhere else and ETCS is rolled out throughout the network, the signals in due course could be removed and replaced with block marker boards but that will be a while yet, the next stage of the rollout will be from Paddington to Ealing Broadway which I assume will only take place when Old Oak Common opens

The fact most drivers have no idea it exists probably doesn’t help either. I’m aware of the clunky process for switching from ATP to ETCS.

 

[800301]

The fact most drivers have no idea it exists probably doesn’t help either. I’m aware of the clunky process for switching from ATP to ETCS.

Would you bother making 12 depots learn ETCS L2 for a section of track no longer than 8/9miles? That some only drive over infrequently and all in traction that doesn't use the system except Reading and Pad Hex

 

[The Planner]

The difference is the line speed - much lower line speed on Chiltern.

Much? its only 25mph difference.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

Would you bother making 12 depots learn ETCS L2 for a section of track no longer than 8/9miles? That some only drive over infrequently and all in traction that doesn't use the system except Reading and Pad Hex

No, but presumably it’s going to be extended at some point so there will need to be some training one day.

 

[Efini92]

Much? its only 25mph difference.

Is it because it’s under 110 it’s not classed as high speed?

 

[The Planner]

Is it because it’s under 110 it’s not classed as high speed?

Not sure there is a definition for high speed.

 

[Efini92]

Not sure there is a definition for high speed.

I was always under the impression it was 110 or higher. I’m sure there’s some different standards for AWS response times at those speeds.

 

[plugwash]

Much? its only 25mph difference.

25% more speed translates to around 56% more kinetic energy.