Esk Valley Line enhanced services / Whitby Potash Mine

[Baxenden Bank]

Does anyone know anything about the proposals for four additional trains each way on the Middlesbrough - Whitby line?

Are the proposals progressing?

Is December 2017 timetable change still the commencement date?

In brief, York Potash Ltd have proposals to build a large potash mine south of Whitby. As part of the planning approval they have offered cash to pay for the additional train services (along with lots of other community benefits) in order to remediate any potential damage to tourism as a result of their activities.

The mine proposals seem to be going ahead, with reports recently of aggregates being delivered (by rail) to Tees-side for onward delivery by road.

Other than the planning application documents I can find no reference to the additional trains e.g. on the Esk Valley Community Rail Partnership site.

Having travelled on the line last week, there is a clear need for extra capacity, and the existing four trains per day service does not offer a particularly attractive service. Basically there is one train to Whitby for daytrippers (the 1028) with two return trains (1559 and 1918).

Update, I found this thread from 2015:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=3010330

And this more recent one:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=147534

 

[MarkRedon]

The developer is Sirius Minerals Ltd. In neither the current project brochure at http://siriusminerals.com/site/flex...ummary_document/project_summary_document.html, nor on their website, is any reference made to rail transport or to enhancing Esk Valley rail services.

 

[cuccir]

Weekend services are year round, as of the new May 2017 timetable: the services will not be stopping in October, as in previous years.

I'm not sure about further enhancements.

 

[yorksrob]

It will be a scandal if the mine goes ahead but at least dome of the improvements don't go ahead. I'm not fussed about the curve to remove Battersby Junction, but we certainly need improvements to allow a decent all day service.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The developer is Sirius Minerals Ltd. In neither the current project brochure at http://siriusminerals.com/site/flex...ummary_document/project_summary_document.html, nor on their website, is any reference made to rail transport or to enhancing Esk Valley rail services.

The potash itself will be transported by conveyor in a 36.7km tunnel to a terminal / processing facility at Wilton. Itself a substantial civil engineering activity, which will take several years to build.

The enhanced rail services are referred to in the planning application documents.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Something needs to be done to connect Whitby to the rest of the country. Whenever I have tried to go there by train, timings have been inconvenient and connections at Middlesbrough appalling. I usually end up catching the inadequate hourly bus from Scarborough which is often standing room only. The bus to Malton or York is sometimes a better option. Annoying the last time I travelled a couple of years ago, the last train from Whitby to Pickering fails to connect with the last onward bus to York.

 

[MarkRedon]

The section 106 agreement made on 19/10/2015 between the mine developer YPL York Potash Limited and North Yorkshire County Council is documented at http://www.northyorkmoors.org.uk/pl...Polyhalite-Mine/Final-NYCC-S106-Agreement.pdf.

Relevant text from that document suggests that YPL is under the following obligations:

Rail Services Contribution

To pay the Rail Service Contribution to the County Council as set out in paragraphs 1.2 and 1.3 below for the purposes of establishing a new train service to increase the existing services between Middlesbrough and Whitby accepting always that the County Council has no obligation to deliver such a service and delivery can only be achieved on the basis that the service is fully funded by YPL or sources other than the County Council

Five hundred thousand pounds (£500,000) Index Linked payable 12 months after the Commencement of Construction and five hundred thousand pounds (£500,000) Index Linked on the first and second anniversary of the first operation of the Rail Services (comprising £1,500,000 in total plus indexation)

Up to a maximum of two hundred and fifty thousand pounds (£250,000) Index Linked per annum for three years upon receipt of a written demand from the County Council pursuant to paragraph 3 of Schedule 2

Rail Infrastructure Contribution

To pay the Rail Infrastructure Contribution being a maximum sum of four million five hundred thousand pounds (£4,550,000) Index Linked towards the cost of infrastructure upgrades required to facilitate the Rail Services on the Middlesbrough to Whitby rail line in a manner which will avoid a negative impact on the core five train per day services of the North York Moors Historical Railway Trust (NYMR) between Pickering and Whitby such money to be paid as set out in paragraphs 2.2, 2.3 and 2.4 below

Seven Hundred and Fifty Thousand Pounds (£750,000) Index Linked on the Commencement of Construction Up to a maximum of Fifty Thousand Pounds (£50,000) Index Linked six months from the date of the Planning Permission granted by the NYMNPA to reimburse the County Council for the cost of work carried out or procured by it in the appraisal of options such payment to be made within 28 days of a written demand from the County Council setting out the option appraisal carried out and itemising the monies expended on such appraisal

Up to three million seven hundred and fifty thousand (£3,750,000) Index Linked following the expiry of a period of 12 months from the Commencement of Construction and within 28 days of a written demand from the County Council setting out the infrastructure works involved and the cost of those works accepting always that the County Council has no obligation to deliver such infrastructure upgrades and delivery can only be achieved on the basis that the infrastructure upgrades are fully funded by YPL or sources other than the County Council

In the event that the Rail Infrastructure Contribution provides insufficient funds to procure an additional four services between Middlesbrough and Whitby to use its reasonable endeavours to investigate and apply for all alternative sources of funding (such as grant aid) as may be available to supplement the Rail Infrastructure Contribution

It's unclear what additional infrastructure is being paid for, but the sums of money are not large - especially not in the context of a £2.3 billion investment in the mine and the conveyor belt system.

 

[Spartacus]

Something needs to be done to connect Whitby to the rest of the country. Whenever I have tried to go there by train, timings have been inconvenient and connections at Middlesbrough appalling. I usually end up catching the inadequate hourly bus from Scarborough which is often standing room only. The bus to Malton or York is sometimes a better option. Annoying the last time I travelled a couple of years ago, the last train from Whitby to Pickering fails to connect with the last onward bus to York.

I guess the connection issue at Middlesbrough just depends on where you're travelling to and from, but I heard that Coastliner specifically tweaked the times after the NYMR started running to Whitby so that it wouldn't provide a good connection between Malton and Pickering to try and get more through passengers, rather than have them use the bus as essentially a rail replacement. Kinda makes sense if you regard them as competing.

 

[Paul Duck]

The proposed timetable for May 2018 sees what I would call a pretty major timetable change for the Whitby Branch. The early morning Whitby to Middlesbrough services I'm sure is due to commence in December 2019 at the latest.

May 2018 Proposals:
Monday To Fridays

Middlesbrough 0711 0957* 1428 1800*
Whitby 0836 1127 1555 1930

Whitby 0858 1204 1601 2002
Middlesbrough 1030* 1333* 1733* 2131*

Saturdays

Middlesbrough 0842% 1057* 1357* 1700*
Whitby 1011 1227 1530 1833

Whitby 1019 1259 1601 1905
Middlesbrough 1158 1428* 1733* 2033*

* To From Carlisle/Metrocentre/Hexham
% From Darlington

Be interesting to see how the trains that run from Carlisle to Whitby perform and keep to time. The Whitby branch between Grosmont & Whitby is pretty full so a small delay on a service coming from miles away will have a knock on effect to everything.

 

[yorksrob]

The proposed timetable for May 2018 sees what I would call a pretty major timetable change for the Whitby Branch. The early morning Whitby to Middlesbrough services I'm sure is due to commence in December 2019 at the latest.

May 2018 Proposals:
Monday To Fridays

Middlesbrough 0711 0957* 1428 1800*
Whitby 0836 1127 1555 1930

Whitby 0858 1204 1601 2002
Middlesbrough 1030* 1333* 1733* 2131*

Saturdays

Middlesbrough 0842% 1057* 1357* 1700*
Whitby 1011 1227 1530 1833

Whitby 1019 1259 1601 1905
Middlesbrough 1158 1428* 1733* 2033*

* To From Carlisle/Metrocentre/Hexham
% From Darlington

Be interesting to see how the trains that run from Carlisle to Whitby perform and keep to time. The Whitby branch between Grosmont & Whitby is pretty full so a small delay on a service coming from miles away will have a knock on effect to everything.

I don't think I'd call it major timetable change by any stretch of the imagination. The options for a visitor getting back from Whitby of an evening are more or less unchanged.

 

[bearhugger]

I would argue that these proposed changes could be detrimental to the usage of the line.
Monday to Fridays
Middlesbrough to Whitby.
0711 is the school run so that won't / shouldn't be changed. 0957 & 1428 are minor changes so no real effect. 1800 is slightly later so therefore a later return from Whitby, which in my view is a step in the right direction.

The Saturday changes seem the worst to me. An 0842 from Middlesbrough doesnt cater for those who want a longer day on the moors walking or other outdoor activities.
The 1057 from Middlesbrough and an earlier last train from Whitby gives even less time for the day tripper to Whitby. Maybe an attempt to limit the drunkeness on the last train during the summer?

I also wonder if this is a phased introduction to extra services in a later timetable change?

 

[DarloRich]

you have to fit the NYMR services into the timetable as well..........

 

[bearhugger]

you have to fit the NYMR services into the timetable as well..........

Thankfully having the second platform now at Whitby has made that easier in a lot of respects, although I don't know how it works with regards to the token section between Glaisdale and Whitby. Whatever procedure is used seems to work for the majority of the time though there are times that some "give and take" is required if either NYMR or Northern are running late for whatever reason.

 

[ffm]

I guess the connection issue at Middlesbrough just depends on where you're travelling to and from, but I heard that Coastliner specifically tweaked the times after the NYMR started running to Whitby so that it wouldn't provide a good connection between Malton and Pickering to try and get more through passengers, rather than have them use the bus as essentially a rail replacement. Kinda makes sense if you regard them as competing.

You heard wrongly. The bus used to connect with the train at Malton, it was that which was 'tweaked' so as not to when Coastliner began running Leeds to Whitby and Scarborough to avoid the competition. The NYMR would never be competition, it takes over twice as long to cover the journey and is over three times the price - neither mattering as it is not there to service travelling customers and is a tourist attraction instead.

 

[ffm]

There will be infrastructure improvements as paert of the Sirius payments to enhance the Esk Valley services, the NYMR paths will be included in the total number made available.

 

[30907]

I would argue that these proposed changes could be detrimental to the usage of the line.

The Saturday changes seem the worst to me. An 0842 from Middlesbrough doesnt cater for those who want a longer day on the moors walking or other outdoor activities.
The 1057 from Middlesbrough and an earlier last train from Whitby gives even less time for the day tripper to Whitby. Maybe an attempt to limit the drunkeness on the last train during the summer?

In terms of actual usage, I would have thought providing two trains outward for daytrippers instead of one a good move.
Is the 0711 so well used by walkers? As a sort of comparison, the Moorsbus from York, sadly the only one to run on Saturdays now, doesnt leave till 0830...

 

[bearhugger]

In terms of actual usage, I would have thought providing two trains outward for daytrippers instead of one a good move.
Is the 0711 so well used by walkers? As a sort of comparison, the Moorsbus from York, sadly the only one to run on Saturdays now, doesnt leave till 0830...

Depends whose POV you're looking from I guess. Probably nowhere near enough from Northern's, but from a user/ passenger view I've used the 7:11 a few times to get out early enough and give myself plenty of time as I'm not a fast walker. For those that are faster, they currently can do more miles before getting a return train, or do what I did last week and get the X93 bus back from Whitby.

As far as possible for branch lines to tourist destinations, I personally think services should give passengers the most options in terms of frequency. Most of the villages along the Esk Valley line would benefit greatly from more visitors if there was a service every 1.5 - 2 hours. There's plenty of pubs and tearooms as well as all the walking routes from the stations that are begging for more numbers. The relative infrequency does put off casual travellers somewhat.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The proposed timetable for May 2018.....

Thanks for the details. In a wider context I would suggest the 2018 proposals are tweaking rather than drastic, but within the context of the Whitby - Middlesbrough line in isolation, yes quite radical! Basically greater integration of the Nunthorpe shorts and the Whitby service.

The weekday 0957 ex Middlesbrough will be beneficial, saving hanging around to begin a day trip, compared to the current 1028. However, simply an equivalent wait for the train home.

The 1800 ex Middlesbrough offers a later departure from Newcastle (and a through train so no risk of missed connection) but I would think is even less attractive to potential Middlesbrough commuters / students. Especially come the introduction of the morning inbound service, when it happens. The only potential options for that, with it having to cross the outbound school service, are an arrival into Middlesbrough around 0730, 0755 or 0909. Or all three - open a traincrew depot at Whitby and start four units there every morning!

The service will remain unfit for purpose (for local travel, non day trip to Whitby) until a second unit is allocated, at least for part of the day. Hence my interest in the proposals funded by the potash mine development. Particularly what works are suggested to increase track capacity. Notably the Glaisdale - Whitby block section which is, when NYMR run, fully occupied. There seem to be no proposals in the public domain, perhaps none in development either. I'm sure the council can find an alternative home for all that lovely Section 106 money!

Other than to access the intermediate stations (Battersby to Ruswarp), I don't understand why people use the rail service. The Arriva X93 is more frequent (hourly), quicker (60 minutes vice 90 minutes), has longer periods of operation and is cheaper! The only benefit of the train is an onboard toilet and statistically rail is safer.

On the occasions I have used the service, admittedly rare and around holiday times, the 1028 has been full and standing from Middlesbrough. Anyone boarding at the Middlesbrough suburban stations, or Esk Valley stations has to stand all the way.

 

[scarby]

The early morning Whitby to Middlesbrough services I'm sure is due to commence in December 2019 at the latest.

Why the heck does it have to take so long to get this underway? It was announced in March 2015!

 

[30907]

The service will remain unfit for purpose (for local travel, non day trip to Whitby) until a second unit is allocated, at least for part of the day.

Other than to access the intermediate stations (Battersby to Ruswarp), I don't understand why people use the rail service. The Arriva X93 is more frequent (hourly), quicker (60 minutes vice 90 minutes), has longer periods of operation and is cheaper! The only benefit of the train is an onboard toilet and statistically rail is safer.

An 0730 into Middlesbrough could be operated with existing resources IIRC but thats too early for commuting. TBH I'm still not convinced a commuter service will be worth it, even if a sensible arrival time can be managed.
The real benefit of the train is the scenery.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

I would argue that these proposed changes could be detrimental to the usage of the line.
Monday to Fridays
Middlesbrough to Whitby.
0711 is the school run so that won't / shouldn't be changed. 0957 & 1428 are minor changes so no real effect. 1800 is slightly later so therefore a later return from Whitby, which in my view is a step in the right direction.

The Saturday changes seem the worst to me. An 0842 from Middlesbrough doesnt cater for those who want a longer day on the moors walking or other outdoor activities.
The 1057 from Middlesbrough and an earlier last train from Whitby gives even less time for the day tripper to Whitby. Maybe an attempt to limit the drunkeness on the last train during the summer?

I also wonder if this is a phased introduction to extra services in a later timetable change?

For anyone coming up from the South, the "minor" change M-F of having the current 1028 ex-Middlesbrough leaving earlier at 0957 would be a disaster. At present the 1028 ex-Middlesbrough is a good connection with the 1011 arrival at Middlesbrough of the TPE service from Leeds and York. Unless TPE change their timetable too, the poor leisure traveller will have to depart Leeds or York an hour earlier then have a 45 minute wait at Middlesbrough.

Don't TOCs talk to each other when planning timetable changes to ensure reasonable connections between their services?

 

[yorksrob]

For anyone coming up from the South, the "minor" change M-F of having the current 1028 ex-Middlesbrough leaving earlier at 0957 would be a disaster. At present the 1028 ex-Middlesbrough is a good connection with the 1011 arrival at Middlesbrough of the TPE service from Leeds and York. Unless TPE change their timetable too, the poor leisure traveller will have to depart Leeds or York an hour earlier then have a 45 minute wait at Middlesbrough.

Don't TOCs talk to each other when planning timetable changes to ensure reasonable connections between their services?

Indeed. I hadn't noticed that.

I already have to travel on the earliest train of the day from my local station in order to connect into the TPE at Leeds to make the 10:28. The proposed change would make this journey impossible.

The whole exercise smacks of fiddling with the deck chairs while Rome burns, whilst failing to address the real issue that the line needs a proper service throughout the day.

 

[A0]

Don't TOCs talk to each other when planning timetable changes to ensure reasonable connections between their services?

They absolutely do - but it's about improving connections which benefit the most people and also allow for a timetable which handles other conflicting requirements.

Whitby is not a 'key' destination - and it's unlikely TPE will be changing their timetable for the 2 or 3 people who might want that connection.

 

[yorksrob]

They absolutely do - but it's about improving connections which benefit the most people and also allow for a timetable which handles other conflicting requirements.

Whitby is not a 'key' destination - and it's unlikely TPE will be changing their timetable for the 2 or 3 people who might want that connection.

Because we're all so desperate to visit Middlesbrough instead ?

 

[philjo]

Living in Hertfordshire our opportunity to use that 10:28 train to Whitby was lost when the East Coast timetable was changed back in 2011.
Previously we could catch the 0719 Glasgow train from Stevenage to Darlington and get a Saltburn service to Middlesborough to change for the Whitby train so we were in Whitby by lunchtime. this is now only possible on the 06:35 from Stevenage which is too early.

We now have to catch the 14:04 train from Middlesborough. so often faster by getting the train to Scarborough then catch the bus.


An additional direct service from Darlington to Whitby late morning (& return in the afternoon) would give useful connections from East Coast and cross Country services. It could either start from the Bay platform or come from Bishop Auckland.

 

[30907]

For anyone coming up from the South, the "minor" change M-F of having the current 1028 ex-Middlesbrough leaving earlier at 0957 would be a disaster. At present the 1028 ex-Middlesbrough is a good connection with the 1011 arrival at Middlesbrough of the TPE service from Leeds and York. Unless TPE change their timetable too, the poor leisure traveller will have to depart Leeds or York an hour earlier then have a 45 minute wait at Middlesbrough.

Don't TOCs talk to each other when planning timetable changes to ensure reasonable connections between their services?

Without knowing the new times for Darlington-Middlesbrough, it's impossible to say how much earlier you would have to leave York, but I'd be surprised if it was a full hour, given the frequency on that bit of the ECML.
And to be realistic, how many people other than forum members would do a day trip to Whitby by rail from York or south thereof? Let alone catch the first train of the day for it like Yorksrob.

The short break/holiday market needs an arrival in Whitby around 15.30 and departure around 09.00, so that's tolerably well catered for. Though I entirely agree with philjo, Alan Williams and almost everyone else that a better service is required.

 

[johnnychips]

Without knowing the new times for Darlington-Middlesbrough, it's impossible to say how much earlier you would have to leave York, but I'd be surprised if it was a full hour, given the frequency on that bit of the ECML.
And to be realistic, how many people other than forum members would do a day trip to Whitby by rail from York or south thereof? Let alone catch the first train of the day for it like Yorksrob.

I thought York-Darlo-Middlesbrough-Whitby wasn't permitted?

Last October got the TP train from York on a Thursday and 17 passengers were
transferring to Whitby. The TP was late so they held the Whitby a couple of minutes.

 

[yorksrob]

I thought York-Darlo-Middlesbrough-Whitby wasn't permitted?

Last October got the TP train from York on a Thursday and 17 passengers were
transferring to Whitby. The TP was late so they held the Whitby a couple of minutes.

Yes, in my experience there have been a few changing from TPE to Whitby as well.

I believe any permitted route tickets are allowed via Darlington but they tend to be extortionately priced.

 

[Ploughman]

The short break/holiday market needs an arrival in Whitby around 15.30 and departure around 09.00, so that's tolerably well catered for. Though I entirely agree with philjo, Alan Williams and almost everyone else that a better service is required.

Are your times correct?

 

[NeilWatson]

For a short break/holiday as stated, arrival mid-afternoon for check-in and a morning departure looks sensible.