ertms -wcml can someone explain why it never got implemented?

[stockport1]

the NW chaps are rolling it out on gwml it says here -

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/12275.aspx

why is the wcml not already kitted out with this to enable the 140mph running we were promised?

 

[junglejames]

the NW chaps are rolling it out on gwml it says here -

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/12275.aspx

why is the wcml not already kitted out with this to enable the 140mph running we were promised?

Wasnt it because it was too expensive, and also they decided it wasnt quite proven enough to be used on such a complicated set of lines?
Hence why its only just found the light of day on the Cambrian Coast.

 

[stockport1]

Wasnt it because it was too expensive, and also they decided it wasnt quite proven enough to be used on such a complicated set of lines?
Hence why its only just found the light of day on the Cambrian Coast.

do you know how much was installed if any?

mileage or % of equipment etc

thx

 

[ainsworth74]

There is no ERTMS on the WCML it's all traditional colour light signalling the only current installation in GB is on the Cambrian Line. The original plan called for the implementation of full moving block signalling (including in cab signalling as well) but Railtrack severely underestimated the difficulty, cost and the time required to develop and install such a system on a network as complicated as the WCML. Hence once it was obvious that costs were running away uncontrollably the project was scaled back to provide 125mph with traditional signalling systems. Even with that cut back the project cost something twice or three times as much as planned for much less capability.

 

[w1bbl3]

Railtrack and it's partners planned ETRMS level 3 (moving block) for the WCML then backed out once they realised such a system was impracticable and beyond technology then available or even available to this day.

IIRC the whole WCML was equipped with GSM-R in part because ETMRS level 3 needed the system to work and the later colour light crash programme did include allowances for a future ETRMS level 2 upgrade.

 

[stockport1]

i have noticed pairs of white blocks on sticks about 2 ft apart facing each other along the crewe liverpool line.

they look like the things on sat dishes off memory.

what are these things?

 

[Aictos]

Wasnt it because it was too expensive, and also they decided it wasnt quite proven enough to be used on such a complicated set of lines?
Hence why its only just found the light of day on the Cambrian Coast.

Soon to be joined by just over 5 miles of single track between Hertford North and Langley Junction sometime between now and 2014, although instead of having the 97s run wild it's going to be the spare 313 being used instead.

 

[WatcherZero]

As has been said, its one thing to select a new signalling system from a paper specification, its another to rollout a system which hadnt been developed yet. They were a few years too early for it to be a deployable system.

 

[OxtedL]

When they get round to implementing ERTMS in, say, the SE, is it likely that branches like the Oxted Line will get it first? I know that we are quite late in the pecking order, but maybe this would be sensible? Good idea to test the terrain (lots of tunnels, viaducts etc) too.

 

[WatcherZero]

The plan is to rollout the system as part of each lines natural signals renewal which occurs every 30 odd years or so. As the WCML was only just done it will be the last to recieve it.

 

[w1bbl3]

The basic ERTMS plan is outlined in the document below.. DfT ERTMS Deployment plan 2007

GWML comes first starting in 2017 finishing in 2035, ECML follows starting in 2018 complete by 2035 then SWML starting 2017 finishing 2034. The "quick" deployments are MML 2021 to 2023, Brighton Mainline 2021 to 2025, GEML 2027 to 2029, WCML 2027 to 2030 finishing off with CTRL/HS1 in 2038 to 2042.

The plan was based on implementing ERTMS as and when the line needs resignalling due to existing kit having reached end of life hence GWML going first with a heavy bias towards mainlines rather than branches. The deployment plans basically show branches off the mainlines being done last hence some lines with lots branches taking 18 years to implement. The core mainline routes should all be done by 2025 apart from WCML and HS1.

 

[The Planner]

The plan is to rollout the system as part of each lines natural signals renewal which occurs every 30 odd years or so. As the WCML was only just done it will be the last to recieve it.

Thats unlikely aswell as it is very rare for an entire line to get re-signalled in one go. It is more likely to get overlaid on top of the existing signalling first like the plan for the Great Western.

 

[WatcherZero]

I never said it would happen in one go, I imagine it would be gradually rolled out along the line before being 'switched on'

 

[brianthegiant]

The basic ERTMS plan is outlined in the document below.. DfT ERTMS Deployment plan 2007

GWML comes first starting in 2017 finishing in 2035........ CTRL/HS1 in 2038 to 2042.

The plan was based on implementing ERTMS as and when the line needs resignalling due to existing kit having reached end of life hence GWML going first with a heavy bias towards mainlines rather than branches. The deployment plans basically show branches off the mainlines being done last hence some lines with lots branches taking 18 years to implement. The core mainline routes should all be done by 2025 apart from WCML and HS1.

With Regards HS1, the map on this Gazette article, suggests that HS1 comes under a 2020 ERTMS deadline?
http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/news/single-view/view/ec-sets-out-ertms-deployment-deadlines.html

 

[w1bbl3]

The DfT deployment document filed with the EC here clearly states 2038 / 2042 in line with when TVM430 is due to decommissioned. I suppose with TVM-ETCS dual mode balises now being available and deployed in service on LGV Est then LCR, Network Rail, Eurotunel, RFF/SNCF could have decided to bring forward channel tunnel fitment.

The actual EU directive doesn't mention HS1 / Channel tunnel fitment but does provide a map showing said routes as fitted and interestingly the complete GWML and parts of ECML, MML and GEML...

http://ec.europa.eu/transport/rail/...eployment_plans/2010_update/uk_fiche_2010.pdf

I suppose the question is has anyone told DfT and Network Rail that they have to fund 2806km of ETCS level 2 deployments and complete them by 2020, better get moving then.

 

[WatcherZero]

As I said earlier its voluntary based on the existing renewal dates of signalling on each line, when that occurs they would be replaced with the new signalling. They consider it saving money to do it when required rather than replacing signalling with several years of life still in it.

 

[Nym]

Remembering aswell that there would either need to be 'hybrid' signalling with coloured lights and ERTMS or all rolling stock have ERTMS fitted that is using that line. Hence why the cambrian line was done first.

Implementing ERTMS on the lines isn't very hard at all compared with fitting the rolling stock, many more companines involved there. We know it's possible to fit ERTMS to a 158, and a 37 (97), but will 142's need fitting with it? Where would it be fitted in a 153? Or even a 156, it would need new cabinets fitting to house the equipment and the unit taking out of service for some time. Unlike AWS and TWPS, or to a certain extent even ATP or TVM430, ERTMS is not a simple system, and takes up a lot of space on the rolling stock. And if ERTMS is being implemented as part of the renewals process, any rolling stock that is to be kept past 2020 should be started to be being fitted with it (it's very hard find self contained branches)

For example, if part of the WCML was done, ERTMS would need to be fitted by:

Virgin Trains
London Midland
Southern
LOROL
East Midlands Trains
Cross Country
Northern Rail
Scotrail
DBS
DRS
Freightliner
and countless others, thats a much bigger challenge than fitting it to the line...

 

[WatcherZero]

The pacers arent supposed to last past 2020 so I dont think its an issue there.

 

[Nym]

Theres still the matter of all other rolling stock on the network...

 

[WatcherZero]

Which should all have the spare power generation for the equipment.

 

[The Planner]

This is why Im not convinced by it. New St gets re-signalled in 2015/16, Wolves 2013 and Stafford around 2014. Bletchley is 2012 I think and Northampton is just a re-locking. None of those schemes have an element of ERTMS built in. Considering they will have a lifespan of 40 years, you are looking at 2050 before they could be started from scratch with the removal of lineside signals completely.

 

[w1bbl3]

Any route marked in red on the EC plan is mandatory under directive 2006/679/EC.. which why I'm very surprised to see the EC maps having HS2 indicated as ERTMS enabled. Anything committed as a voluntary contribution is also technically mandatory.

On at least some units won't the equipment cabinet end up occupying a passenger seat.

 

[RichW1]

This is why Im not convinced by it. New St gets re-signalled in 2015/16, Wolves 2013 and Stafford around 2014. Bletchley is 2012 I think and Northampton is just a re-locking. None of those schemes have an element of ERTMS built in. Considering they will have a lifespan of 40 years, you are looking at 2050 before they could be started from scratch with the removal of lineside signals completely.

So this suggests we won't get anymore capacity or speed for decades?!! So we'll be doing the same in 2040 on the WCML as we could do in the 1970's albeit with a bit of a tweak. Oh god, how very depressing. So we'll have gone nowhere in 75 years. The pain's almost too much to take.

 

[moggie]

Fundamentally the first thing that will be required is the creation of a set of detailed technical application specifications of all signalling interface requirements. Network Rail currently enjoy the fact that there is an adequate knowledge base for application of traditional signalling technologies among its current supply chain. In future, to undertake roll out of ERTMS by those in the current supply chain a massive camapaign of education and training among the supply industry is going to be needed and in turn a clear idea of their own technical requirements is going to be needed by Network Rail. It is my opinion that other than a few senior folk at each company who are generally not project implementation people and a small team associated with the cambrian project aligned to the specific technology employed on that project there is a vacuum of knowledge compared to the number of specialists that are going to be needed on multiple large projects.

On West Coast, not only was TCS only a paper pipedream there was no ability to implement the system because of a lack of application specs available to the supply industry. OK so use continental companies to do the work. Well that has been tried at Cheadle Hulme and Portsmouth and failed at Horsham among others and I think the general opinion is that these prducts were expensive, suffered significant delay or just proved inadequate for the task compared to the traditional altrenatives.

If these hurdles are not properly addressed then I foresee TCS Mk 2 or token provision of ERTMS at fringes with major delay to vital signalling renewals bogged down by lack of specification and the inability to adress unknown uknowns which will be far greater than traditional signalling renewals which are generally understood by those tasked with applying them. Cardiff will be interesting being one of the first in the chain. I hope NR actually know and understand what it is they want their contractor and their equipment to provide in terms of signalling interface requirements and to what specification their contractors are expected to follow - and i'm not thinking of generic descriptions.