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Erasing "wrong-uns" from history

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Merle Haggard

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In line with sentencing policy of Community order to 3 years’ custody

Just to clarify; does not a suspended sentence mean that, if no further offences are committed, there is no penalty? If so, that's less than the 'minimum' as a Community Order means work.
Someone mildly well-known locally caught by Yewtree (for downloading) was given three months custody and this seemed to be the usual.
 
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brad465

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…and somehow got away with a six month suspended sentence!
The Secret Barrister explained it was within sentencing guidelines for the offences involved, considering not just crimes but also factors like his guilty plea, mental health problems and rehabilitation prospects. If this is a lenient sentence, the problem is the law, not the judge.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Just to clarify; does not a suspended sentence mean that, if no further offences are committed, there is no penalty? If so, that's less than the 'minimum' as a Community Order means work.
Someone mildly well-known locally caught by Yewtree (for downloading) was given three months custody and this seemed to be the usual.
He's not going scot-free though, he has to undergo rehabilitation with the probation service and is on the sex offenders register for 7 years, neither of these can be avoided by him.
 

deltic

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Just to clarify; does not a suspended sentence mean that, if no further offences are committed, there is no penalty? If so, that's less than the 'minimum' as a Community Order means work.
Someone mildly well-known locally caught by Yewtree (for downloading) was given three months custody and this seemed to be the usual.
Suspended sentences can have various requirements imposed by the court such as undertaking a treatment programme. As I understand it he was sent images he did not ask for and requested that no further were sent to him. Financially he has also lost out enormously.
 

GRALISTAIR

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Given the nature of the offences, what would the benefit be to society of locking him up?
Probably none - I get that. It is probably to be truthful with you, more of an emotional response from me. Perhaps community service would be a good punishment. I am conflicted to be very truthful.
 

SuspectUsual

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Given the nature of the offences, what would the benefit be to society of locking him up?

The one thing it offers that a suspended sentence doesn't is a stronger deterrent to others; than in itself is a benefit to society
 

najaB

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The one thing it offers that a suspended sentence doesn't is a stronger deterrent to others; than in itself is a benefit to society
I don't know if I agree with that. Prison doesn't really have that much of a deterrent effect where child pornography is concerned, if anything the threat of going to jail just gives people more incentive to hide their actions and discourages people from seeking psychological help.
 

gg1

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The one thing it offers that a suspended sentence doesn't is a stronger deterrent to others; than in itself is a benefit to society

His actions have ended his career, ended his marriage, most likely destroyed his relationship with his children and it's a fair assumption all his friends will want nothing more to do with him

If that didn't serve as a deterrent I doubt the prospect of a few months in prison would make any real difference.
 

Cdd89

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If anything the threat of going to jail just gives people more incentive to hide their actions and discourages people from seeking psychological help.
Or it will mean that people don't have to hide their actions as much and can thus find like-minded people who know the worst likely penalty is a suspended sentence.

On the psychological help part, if we were talking about drawings etc, I might agree; however he formed part of a market for real images and as such real lifelong harm has been caused to multiple people.

If that didn't serve as a deterrent I doubt the prospect of a few months in prison would make any real difference.
Not to him admittedly, but the example might make a difference to someone without a lucractive career to lose.
 

najaB

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On the psychological help part, if we were talking about drawings etc, I might agree; however he formed part of a market for real images and as such real lifelong harm has been caused to multiple people.
I could be wrong, but I don't believe that he actively sought out imagery of children.

More generally, psychological help can be useful to help people with paedophilic tendency to learn how to avoid turning ideation into action.
 
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Cdd89

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I could be wrong, but I don't believe that he actively sought out imagery.
That aspect is a bit murky; according to the sentencing remarks he paid the sender, but it wasn't made out that he definitely paid them for the images (which may sound like a pedantic point but it was a critical one in his sentencing). However, insofar as he received images and requested more, I would say that was seeking out the images. If it were easier to obtain them I would suggest he would have obtained more.

More generally, psychological help can be useful to help people with paedophilic tendency to learn how to avoid turning ideation into action.
Absolutely, and I wholly support this. However, this does not replace punishment for a crime that has caused actual harm. I know punishment is the least popular part of our justice system, and I have no wish to punish people for the sake of it, but the reason it exists is for deterrence.

There will be people currently committing similar acts and causing similar harm: do you think they will hear this judgment and decide to stop and seek psychological help because of the soft sentence, or will they be relieved that they are not taking a very big risk?
 

gg1

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One of today's YouGov daily questions addresses the subject of this thread:

'If someone in television is found to have committed a serious crime, in general should programmes featuring them remain or be removed from streaming services?'

Response are split evenly atm with 41% voting for each option (the remaining 18% are don't knows). I can't post a link unfortunately, the survey only seems to be visible on the app.
 

AlterEgo

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One of today's YouGov daily questions addresses the subject of this thread:

'If someone in television is found to have committed a serious crime, in general should programmes featuring them remain or be removed from streaming services?'

Response are split evenly atm with 41% voting for each option (the remaining 18% are don't knows). I can't post a link unfortunately, the survey only seems to be visible on the app.
YouGov is just a machine to manufacture consent and is probably supported by the government in its activities. Worse than hogwash. May as well just go on some internet forums to find more informed, higher-stakes chat than whatever bored, self-selecting people are filling in online surveys.
 

najaB

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There will be people currently committing similar acts and causing similar harm: do you think they will hear this judgment and decide to stop and seek psychological help because of the soft sentence, or will they be relieved that they are not taking a very big risk?
Is it a soft sentence, really? It's suspended for two years so the threat of prison is very much still there if he offends again.

I'm not convinced that the threat of imprisonment has nearly as much influence as it might appear to. Being "named and shamed" on the sex offenders register is a big enough punishment for a large proportion offenders who find themselves struggling with an innate predilection that puts them in conflict with both the law and their sense of right and wrong. They don't want to offend, many of them feel deep shame and regret about their actions, but are unable to control their urges.

And, where relief is concerned, considering repeated statements to the effect that getting caught "was a relief" because they no longer had to deal with that inner turmoil, it seems to me that making it easier to seek treatment, without threat of jail time, is of more benefit to society.

There's no doubt that possession and distribution of sexual imagery of children should be illegal, but it's worth keeping in mind that it's almost impossible for someone to control what they find sexually appealing. Our focus should be on helping people control their actions. Prison time is appropriate for those who actually produce the material, since they directly inflicted harm on others. But less so for those who are found with images, especially if they didn't distribute them.

Edit: That is before we consider what even is the point of a custodial sentence? IMO, the main purpose is to protect society from someone who presents a danger to others, and the secondary purpose is to punish them for their actions. Any deterrent effect is a happy by-product but it shouldn't enter into consideration during the sentencing process. The idea of "putting heads on pikes as a warning to others" is outmoded as fare I am concerned. Way too many non-violent offenders end up in jail, and it just sets up a cycle of recidivism.
 
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brad465

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Wow Tim Davie! I'd never have guessed that:


The BBC’s director general Tim Davie said he can’t see Huw Edwards working at the corporation again.
“This man has just been convicted of appalling crimes and it’s pretty straightforward in my mind, I can’t see him working here again,” he told BBC presenter Amol Rajan, at the Royal Television Society London Convention.
On Monday, disgraced BBC News presenter Edwards was given a a six-month prison sentence, suspended for two years, after he admitted charges of making indecent images of children.
Mr Davie said "for obvious reasons," the former presenter was unlikely to come back to the organsation.

The court was told on Monday that Edwards received more than 40 images over several months from a convicted sex offender – including some showing a victim aged between seven and nine.
Until last year, he was the BBC's most senior news presenter and often fronted coverage of major national events.
Mr Davie said there was "shock" and "a lot of upset” within the BBC over Edwards, adding that people across the organisation feel “deeply, deeply let down”.
But he insisted it wasn’t about the BBC, but rather, about the victims and their families.
Edwards was the BBC's highest-paid journalist, receiving between £475,000 and £479,999 between April 2023 and April 2024.
The BBC has asked him to return the £200,000 he earned between his arrest last November and his resignation this April.
The whole issue of pay did not come up in court on Monday.
Addressing the matter, Mr Davie said discussions were ongoing about getting the salary back.
“We want the money back… we’ve asked for it back,” he said.
“There’s discussion between legal teams, that’s as far as I can go.”

High time this shallow idiot does one as well.
 

Crossover

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…and somehow got away with a six month suspended sentence!
This is about what I expected to be honest - I said to my other half when he first pleaded guilty that I didn't reckon (based on what was being reported - naturally the courts have a greater depth of evidence) he would get an immediate custodial sentence
 

Tetchytyke

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That aspect is a bit murky; according to the sentencing remarks he paid the sender, but it wasn't made out that he definitely paid them for the images (which may sound like a pedantic point but it was a critical one in his sentencing). However, insofar as he received images and requested more, I would say that was seeking out the images. If it were easier to obtain them I would suggest he would have obtained more.
It's incredibly easy to find child sexual abuse material (CSAM) on the internet if you are so disposed. Telegram is full of it and so, these days, is Twitter/X, even before we consider 'dark web' tools such as Tor.

Edwards had more contact with the sender than the exchange of pornographic images, which is where the sending of money came from. And most of the pornographic images were of adult men. It's also worth noting that whilst Edwards did, seemingly, agree he wanted images of 'younger looking' people but when the sender sent him images of pre-pubescent or obviously underage pubescent children he objected. He certainly didn't object so much as to, say, report the sender to the police though...

Honestly, I'd say the sentence was about right.
Wow Tim Davie! I'd never have guessed that:
And there was me thinking Huw would be back next week reading the Bedtime Story on CBeebies :rolleyes:
 
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yorkie

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…and somehow got away with a six month suspended sentence!
Ludicrous!
I suspect you've not read the following article which covers the matter of sentencing; it's completely in line with the guidelines:

(it really needs a full read, but a few excepts are quoted below)
...This is absolutely standard procedure....
... this discount for an admission is a standard feature of sentencing law...
///He’s free from prison - but he is not free in the true sense of the word. His life choices will be watched on and off for years to come.
 

GRALISTAIR

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I suspect you've not read the following article which covers the matter of sentencing; it's completely in line with the guidelines:

(it really needs a full read, but a few excepts are quoted below)
I already admitted my response was an emotional one to najaB - see post # 125
 
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Tetchytyke

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No doubt in part because doing so would incriminate himself.
And that’s partly the trouble with the existing law. Downloading child sexual abuse material (CSAM) has been upgraded from possession to making, with higher possible sentences and fewer defences, and so if people do receive CSAM they won’t report it.

I was reading that many people who obtain CSAM are not paedophiles per se, it’s often a case where their pornography usage has escalated into more ‘extreme’ stuff.

The best way forward is to help these people get help to deal with whatever is causing their escalating pornography usage. But sadly the existing law means nobody in their right mind would ever come forward asking for help because it would destroy their life.
 
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65477

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One problem for Railway Museums is the place of Jimmy Saville as the face of BR during the "this is the age of the train" campaigns. The collection I managed has a number of leaflets with is image on. Display or not? The Science Museum Group catalogue seems to have two documents associated with him and lists them without context. Saville is also not list as a person in their index.

A similar issue relates to the Wills Tobacco enamel signs. As we have plenty of other sign I don't display them because of their association with tobacco rather than anything else.
 
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takno

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One problem for Railway Museums is the place of Jimmy Saville as the face of BR during the "this is the age of the train" campaigns. The collection I managed has a number of leaflets with is image on. Display or not? The Science Museum Group catalogue seems to have two documents associated with him and lists them without context. Saville is also not list as a person in their index.

A similar issue relates to the Wills Tobacco enamel signs. As we have plenty of other sign I don't display them because of their association with tobacco rather than anything else.
There's an entire section dedicated to tobacco at the Norwegian Folkemuseum (https://norskfolkemuseum.no/en-tobakkshistorie) it deals with the issue by facing it head-on as a facet of history and explaining how cultural norms have changed with the growing evidence of harm.

In terms of Saville and museums, contextualising displays and explaining how subsequent revelations have turned Saville's face into an object of shame and loathing is appropriate. It also makes perfect sense to not display those items alone, and to only feature them in larger displays if the artefacts are required to explain the wider display.

Museums have a wider archival function though. Removing the items from the off-display collection, or excluding the name from the index is pretty much a dereliction of duty.

We don't learn from history by pretending it never happened.
 

ainsworth74

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But sadly the existing law means nobody in their right mind would ever come forward asking for help because it would destroy their life.
And, of course, if you suggest that perhaps the law needs looking at to get out of the current hole it's found itself in you'll quickly be accused of trying to protect paedophiles...
 

najaB

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And, of course, if you suggest that perhaps the law needs looking at to get out of the current hole it's found itself in you'll quickly be accused of trying to protect paedophiles...
A simple change that would avoid that claim would be blame-free reporting. If someone finds/is sent CSAM they should be able to report it without further questions being asked about their own conduct. The only time I've come across questionable content* it was on a mainstream website that had a 'Report' button. I clicked the button, chose the reason from a list, the material disappeared within a couple of hours and no questions were asked, though I suspect the uploader had to explain themselves.

*A female who looked uncomfortably young, though not unequivocally underage.
 
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Tetchytyke

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One problem for Railway Museums is the place of Jimmy Saville as the face of BR during the "this is the age of the train" campaigns. The collection I managed has a number of leaflets with is image on. Display or not?
The best way of presenting any material in museums is to present it with context. Explain that Jimmy Savile was an influential and popular celebrity and that, after his death, it became apparent he was someone who used that power and fame to exploit people.

The National Railway Museum, or whoever, airbrushing Savile out of history doesn't change who he was or what he did. All it really does is spare any potential embarrassment of the companies who paid him for promotional work.

I was in Port Sunlight a few weeks ago and I really liked how the Lady Lever Art Gallery curators explained things, both Lord Lever's business interests in the Belgian Congo and also the various sculptures of pubsecent girls created by Edward Onslow Ford.

And, of course, if you suggest that perhaps the law needs looking at to get out of the current hole it's found itself in you'll quickly be accused of trying to protect paedophiles...
The current caselaw is an absolute mess.

There is an offence of possessing child sexual abuse material (CSAM) and, to prove that, the prosecutor needs to prove that the person had CSAM in their possession and that they intended to have it in their possession.

There is an offence of 'making' CSAM and, to prove that, the prosecutor simply needs to prove that the person downloaded it- including if it was sent as an email attachment or, in one case, if it appeared as a pop-up on an adult pornographic website.

Possessing CSAM has a maximum sentence of 5 years' imprisonment, but making CSAM has a maximum sentence of 10 years' imprisonment.

Is it any wonder that the CPS no longer routinely use possession as the main charge?

Both laws pre-date the internet and clearly attempt to draw the distinction between actually being the creator of CSAM and simply being in possession of CSAM that somebody else made. The distinction now has disappeared. To an extent this is reasonable- part of the enduring abuse against the victims is the ongoing proliferation of the images.

In Edwards' case I don't think he actively sought out the CSAM but, equally, I don't get the impression he was particularly disgusted at receiving it either, at least not until he received CSAM involving pre-pubescent children. But because he was convicted of making CSAM everyone assumes he was actively involved in the production of it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

If someone finds/is sent CSAM they should be able to report it without further questions being asked about their own conduct.
I think it is possible if you accidentally come across something, you can report to the police Child Exploitation and Online Protection service (CEOP) or the Internet Watch Foundation. How anonymous it is I don't know, the IWF say it is but nothing on the internet is truly anonymous.

I suppose the trouble is that a lot of people who find it/are sent it haven't exactly gone looking for CSAM but they have gone looking for things which fly very close to the line. Those are the people who, ideally, we'd reach before they go further down the rabbit hole, but they're never going to report if they believe they will be interrogated about their browsing history.
 
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Haywain

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Or it will mean that people don't have to hide their actions as much and can thus find like-minded people who know the worst likely penalty is a suspended sentence.
A suspended sentence is far from the "worst likely penalty", it's actually 10 years in prison.
 

Purple Train

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There's an entire section dedicated to tobacco at the Norwegian Folkemuseum (https://norskfolkemuseum.no/en-tobakkshistorie) it deals with the issue by facing it head-on as a facet of history and explaining how cultural norms have changed with the growing evidence of harm.

In terms of Savile and museums, contextualising displays and explaining how subsequent revelations have turned Saville's face into an object of shame and loathing is appropriate. It also makes perfect sense to not display those items alone, and to only feature them in larger displays if the artefacts are required to explain the wider display.

Museums have a wider archival function though. Removing the items from the off-display collection, or excluding the name from the index is pretty much a dereliction of duty.

We don't learn from history by pretending it never happened.
Agreed, totally and utterly. Well said.
 
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