Enviro 400s

[ValleyLines142]

Evening,

I really, really like the Enviro 400s. I think they're really nice buses, very stylish, modern and I love the engines.

In your opinion, which bus company has got the most Enviro 400s in the fleet, or the nicest or best liveried, and where is the best place to catch them? I know London, Stagecoach Manchester & Newcastle and NXWM/NXC have a wide range, but are there any others?

The closest range of Enviro 400s to me is the five that Newport Transport own (400 - 404) and fair play Newport have kept them in a great condition and their green colours suit them well. They regularly make appaearances on the 8, 15 and 30 (which runs into Cardiff!).

Second-closest to me, although I haven't caught one yet, is the range in Weston-super-Mare (33411 - 33419) that are used on the X1 Bristol to Weston Express. One was on the 112 today! I have heard rumours that First Bristol are set to have about twenty of them. These are quite a nice range too; it does seem weird having them with First, they always seem like Stagecoach buses (similarly it seems VERY rare to have a Stagecoach Gemini, they're normally quite popular with First fleets).

Any other nice Enviros out there?!

 

[trentside]

Any other nice Enviros out there?!

Rattle, rattle, crash, bang, rattle... that's the chorus of most E400s

The Stagecoach Gold ones are quite nice, as are the InterConnet vehicles in Lincolnshire (see here).

Both these variants are based on the Scania chassis, I believe.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Rattle, rattle, crash, bang, rattle... that's the chorus of most E400s

The Stagecoach Gold ones are quite nice, as are the InterConnet vehicles in Lincolnshire (see here).

Both these variants are based on the Scania chassis, I believe.

agreed! The full ADL Version to me aint a nice bus to be on however the Scania version seams much jaetter and a far more enjoyable ride in terms of both speed and cumfort.↲

 

[90sWereBetter]

Here in First Eastern Counties territory, we're shortly to get 20 coach-seated ones to go onto the X1 route. They should be good.

Closest to me geographically is the large batch of E400s running on Cambridge city services, but as I never have a pressing need to visit Cambridge, the next closest is North/East London, with Stagecoach, First (or Tower Transit as they're now called) and Arriva ones all over the shop.

 

[anthony263]

The enviro 400's which Newport Bus operate are supposed to soon be used on some peak hour journeys on service X30 with Newport bus having some more Dennis Tridents (Plaxton President)

 

[MK Tom]

I'm a bigger fan of the Wright Eclipse Gemini personally. But if Enviro 400s are you thing, go to Oxford. The place is overrun with them. Three different operators all using massive fleets of them, and many of those are hybrids. Arriva Sapphire ones, Oxford Bus Company normal ones, Stagecoach normal ones, green Stagecoach hybrid ones, OBC 'Brookes Bus' ones, and within that there're variations on what frame they're built on. Oh and several Stagecoach Gold ones too.

A few ones I've photographed:

Hybrid example -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/50337784@N04/9050765395/

Arriva Sapphire -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/50337784@N04/9324195870/

Stagecoach Gold (in MK) -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/50337784@N04/9193927557/

Lincolnshire ones from the outside -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/50337784@N04/9331486364/

 

[ValleyLines142]

The enviro 400's which Newport Bus operate are supposed to soon be used on some peak hour journeys on service X30 with Newport bus having some more Dennis Tridents (Plaxton President)

I always thought they should be used on the X30!

 

[F Great Eastern]

No fan of the Enviro 400's here, poor build quality, rattly destination boxes (a hangover from the ALX400, which the Enviro 400 is basically a facelifted version of) and bad interior fitting design make them a poor mans Gemini in my view.

There are ownership links between ADL and Stagecoach, which is why Stagecoach buy so many ADL products.

 

[Class 33]

I like the Enviro 400's. Lovely ride quality, nice engine sound, comfortable seating, and they actually have a bit of charactor to them too. Much much better than the bland and charactorless Gemini's in my opinion.

Yes DanTrainMan185, I too am looking forward to these entering service on Bristol city services. It will be nice to see these running around the city and will make it a bit more of a mix of double deckers in Bristol(on First services) instead of the current minefield of Gemini's, Gemini's, Gemini's and yet more Gemini's!(and just a tiny number of ALX 400 Volo B7's) Originally it was stated that 22 would be brought in, but a rumour on here that it will now only be 6. Hopefully it will turn out to be the former. And hopefully it will be September when these buses enter service.

 

[Blindtraveler]

No fan of the Enviro 400's here, poor build quality, rattly destination boxes (a hangover from the ALX400, which the Enviro 400 is basically a facelifted version of) and bad interior fitting design make them a poor mans Gemini in my view.

There are ownership links between ADL and Stagecoach, which is why Stagecoach buy so many ADL products.

afraid I have to aggree with your centiments here. I am not a fan of pritty much anything ADL And much prefer there boddies on other shassies. As mentioned up thread the Scania E400s are nicer in my mind and I even like the much hated and unreliable Man E300, quite possibly the bus worlds nearest answer to a voyager when it comes to comments and criticisms from enthusiasts and staff alike!↲

geminis are cumfy, quiet and generally well made, if admittedly a bit bland.

 

[ushawk]

I like them, in Eastbourne - we have just received more E400s from Manchester in addition to a couple on loan from Hastings in Wave 99 livery. Not sure if they are just for the Summer to deal with increased passenger numbers or are here for good.

 

[F Great Eastern]

I like the Enviro 400's. Lovely ride quality, nice engine sound, comfortable seating, and they actually have a bit of charactor to them too. Much much better than the bland and charactorless Gemini's in my opinion.

Seating isn't related to the body of the bus, pretty much all the seat types are available on both the Gemini and Enviro range, it's just down to the operator on what kind of seating they spec, some spec good ones, some don't.

Envio's certainly have character I'll give you that, and of course you hear the engine sounds well on them, since the engine compartment has absolutely no sound proofing compared to the Enviro that seems to have none.

If I'm on a journey home after a long day at work, sorry, but I'll pick the quiet, rattle free, sound proof engine area, sturdy and well built Gemini any day of the week.

No good comparing Enviro's that are almost new to older Gemini vehicles. I know some operators who have both that are 4-5 years old each, and whilst the Gemini has held up well, and is rattle free, the Enviro that has been used on very similar kind of work and is a few months newer, has had panels replaced, fittings that are loose and rattles everywhere.

 

[David Goddard]

We've got 31 of the Hybrid E400Hs at Reading, and a further six standard diesel variants owned by Weavaway operate between Reading and Newbury.

Cambridge is another E400 Mecca, with 88 Enviro 400s at work with Stagecoach:
-There are 50 Dennis examples employed on Cambridge City services, and a further 22 (older) vehicles working the three colour coded Park and Ride routes
-The Cambridgeshire Guided Busway uses a fleet of 16 high spec Scania E400s based at Fenstanton. These now work right through to Peterborough, where a further 18 Dennis vehicles can also be found.

 

[swifty]

The batch of E400H used on the Bath P&R have a nice spec with leather seats etc, however the internal fittings are far inferior to the older Gemini that were previously used, and just don't feel as well built as the old order.

A prime example is that top of the stairs, moulded plastic on the Wright product, laminated MDF on the ADL product, says it all IMO.

Two examples from interior pictures on flickr of similar First spec vehicles;
ADL: http://www.flickr.com/photos/45060815@N07/8661418646
Wright: http://www.flickr.com/photos/busesandcoaches/8634445471/

 

[Antman]

I like them, in Eastbourne - we have just received more E400s from Manchester in addition to a couple on loan from Hastings in Wave 99 livery. Not sure if they are just for the Summer to deal with increased passenger numbers or are here for good.

Do Eastbourne also operate the Wave 99 route? If not it seems daft to loan them buses branded for the route.

I had a ride on an Arrive SC E400 on the 101 route between Maidstone and Gillingham and they really do shift on the fast section, no noticeable rattles either.

 

[F Great Eastern]

The grab rail design is also different on an E400, where the pole slots into another pole that fixes to the ceiling. Over time these can work loose, and rattle due to use and stress. They then don't fit it snugly and will rattle and move about a bit, but still stay in their socket. The problem is then however, once they do work loose, they are not supported by the top part of the structure as much, which then makes the bottom part of the pole, which attaches to the seat, take more stress to compensate.

This eventually causes the other end of the fitting to the seat to also wear much quicker since it's now taking the burden of the pressure of the part which is no longer rigidly attached, in some cases this then makes the back of the seat bend, depending on the type of seat used. This also happened on ALX400's but didn't seem to happen as much, but was obviously worse when bench seats were used, since this made the bench seats bend back to a bigger angle than they were originally.

The much better, Wright way of doing it, is to simply to nail the pole to the body with two bolts rather than using an attachment that isn't, which reduces rattles since there is nothing for the pole to rattle around in.

 

[Eagle]

I am completely bored of E400s, because there are just so many round here. All the Unibus services (plus a bunch of other services round Leamington now it's the holidays) are 12-reg ones, the X15 and X18 are 10-reg ones (ex-Oxon, they still had Bicester Village advertising when they appeared), NX's 11/12 was where they introduced their 61-reg ones, which have now gone elsewhere but some 13-reg ones have been turning up on 11/12 rosters again recently.

Sometimes I wonder are there any other deckers in production at all?

 

[90019]

Lothian has 15 E400Hs, and the first word that comes to mind is 'unreliable'. Three of them in particular seem to be constatly breaking down.

They were delivered in 2011, and prior to that the last ADL buses were delivered in 2004. No other ADL buses have been bought since the hybrids. It seems telling that the majority of the fleet is now made up of Wrightbus bodied Volvos, compared to 10 years ago, when it was mostly Alexander bodied buses.

 

[Lrd]

My local bus operator Bluestar has just the one, which I travelled on tonight and quite liked.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Lothian has 15 E400Hs, and the first word that comes to mind is 'unreliable'.

followed in quick succession by rattly, slow, uncumfortable heaps of sh*t!↲
↲
I cant for the life of me understand why they gut them on the night bus turns when surely any fule saving is wiped out by costs of sending another bus out and towing the dead one in from deapest Darkest Prestonpans where it failed!
↲the ADL People have doubtless tried to make inroads but the fact the of the 30 odd new single decks we've had in the burgh this year none have been ADL and that the new service 1 vehicles replaced some truly awfull ADL ones is proof enough!↲

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
did a trip to Pennicuik on the 15 the other day and compared to 18 months ago when I last did it on a Gemini the trident was, well indescribable!

 

[90019]

I cant for the life of me understand why they gut them on the night bus turns when surely any fule saving is wiped out by costs of sending another bus out and towing the dead one in from deapest Darkest Prestonpans where it failed!

Depending on what fails, ADL may have to contribute to the recovery costs.
It'll still be cheaper to send them out on the night buses, despite the failures.

the ADL People have doubtless tried to make inroads but the fact the of the 30 odd new single decks we've had in the burgh this year none have been ADL and that the new service 1 vehicles replaced some truly awfull ADL ones is proof enough!

To be fair, the Y reg Pointers weren't actually bad buses, they were just worn out.
I'm doubt we'll be getting anymore ADL buses in the forseeable future, though I wouldn't mind a shot of one of the Scania Enviros.
You may also be interested to know about the electric Solo currently in Central, though it's not going in service because it doesn't have enough range.

did a trip to Pennicuik on the 15 the other day and compared to 18 months ago when I last did it on a Gemini the trident was, well indescribable!

I should point out that I love driving the Tridents, though I bascally never get to - I like them as a passenger as well, and they have my second favorite engine in the buses we have.
I'm quite happy with most of the Pointers that are still around, too (though some are much better than others).

 

[Blindtraveler]

Dont get me wrong some of our tridents are good and they can be nice to travel on, just not on the 15! On build qualitty they are certainly better than pritty much any full ADL Inviro iv ever used and Im glad there fun to drive! Was aware of the electric solo, if they can up the range that will be a great bus! Gotta agree on the remaining pointers too. Maybe you should encourage management to ask ADL/Scania for an E400 demonstrater? would say something like the decker turns on 12/X12 would be good for it!↲

 

[ushawk]

Do Eastbourne also operate the Wave 99 route? If not it seems daft to loan them buses branded for the route.

I had a ride on an Arrive SC E400 on the 101 route between Maidstone and Gillingham and they really do shift on the fast section, no noticeable rattles either.

The depot at Eastbourne operate a couple of 99 services and do have 1 E400 Wave liveried vehicle allocated to run the services, other than that it's Hastings depot that run it, along with the 98.

 

[90019]

Dont get me wrong some of our tridents are good and they can be nice to travel on, just not on the 15! On build qualitty they are certainly better than pritty much any full ADL Inviro iv ever used and Im glad there fun to drive! Was aware of the electric solo, if they can up the range that will be a great bus! Gotta agree on the remaining pointers too. Maybe you should encourage management to ask ADL/Scania for an E400 demonstrater? would say something like the decker turns on 12/X12 would be good for it!↲

There was a normal E400 demonstrator a while back, which went out on the 10 for a few days, but nothing seems to have come of it.
It's things like the crap aftersales service from ADL that makes me think we won't be buying any more buses from them anytime soon.

We were going to have an E350H on trial back when we had the door forward Streetlite, but ADL wouldn't allow fitment of a hopper and cash box, so it never left Central and was sent back after a few days.
The Electric Solo isn't going to be out on any service work, but hopefully something might come of it, as it would be just the right sort of thing for the 36.

 

[Blindtraveler]

should have thought the 36 would expire it with so many hills but the 69 now, theres an idea. Was aware that it wouldnt do any service runs, a shame as would have enjoyed a ride! had a go on the ADL E400 when it was here, by accident actually and seeing as it was quite a new bus it was doing a lot a rattling!↲

iv had a go on one of Aberdeens E350H's and was not over impressed TBH.↲

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Seating isn't related to the body of the bus, pretty much all the seat types are available on both the Gemini and Enviro range, it's just down to the operator on what kind of seating they spec, some spec good ones, some don't.

Envio's certainly have character I'll give you that, and of course you hear the engine sounds well on them, since the engine compartment has absolutely no sound proofing compared to the Enviro that seems to have none.

If I'm on a journey home after a long day at work, sorry, but I'll pick the quiet, rattle free, sound proof engine area, sturdy and well built Gemini any day of the week.

No good comparing Enviro's that are almost new to older Gemini vehicles. I know some operators who have both that are 4-5 years old each, and whilst the Gemini has held up well, and is rattle free, the Enviro that has been used on very similar kind of work and is a few months newer, has had panels replaced, fittings that are loose and rattles everywhere.

Tend to agree with your synopsis. I find e400s built to a price and the quality reflects that. The Gemini body is far superior so whilst I appreciate that Bristol might enjoy a bit of variety (from a spotter's view), the travelling public might actually be worse off.

That said, the Stagecoach ones have tended to be the worst ones (especially the earlier deliveries), though the Gold and First ones are a bit better. I've also had the delights of direct comparisons between Arriva in the North East (09 Enviro vs 59 Gemini) and there is no doubt the Wright is better built. As an aside, I travelled on an e200 from the Gower to Swansea about 18 months ago (it was a 58/09 plate?) and it was possibly the worst modern bus I've travelled on. Just an hour an unmitigated banging and clattering :cry:

The other issue (as with any vehicle) is the strength of the drivetrain. The Bath Enviro Hybrids really struggle with Wellsway and Lansdown Hill (much more than the B7s they replaced). Some Arriva NE ADLs are also down on power though Stagecoach's Scanias are much better performance wise.

 

[starrymarkb]

No fan of the Enviro 400's here, poor build quality, rattly destination boxes (a hangover from the ALX400, which the Enviro 400 is basically a facelifted version of) and bad interior fitting design make them a poor mans Gemini in my view.

There are ownership links between ADL and Stagecoach, which is why Stagecoach buy so many ADL products.

Yes, when Mayflower (parent of Alexander and Dennis) went bust the Souter family stepped in to save it. The Souters used their own money rather then Stagecoach's...

Still Stagecoach were Alexander's loyalest customer

 

[DunsBus]

followed in quick succession by rattly, slow, uncumfortable heaps of sh*t!↲
↲
I cant for the life of me understand why they gut them on the night bus turns when surely any fule saving is wiped out by costs of sending another bus out and towing the dead one in from deapest Darkest Prestonpans where it failed!
↲the ADL People have doubtless tried to make inroads but the fact the of the 30 odd new single decks we've had in the burgh this year none have been ADL and that the new service 1 vehicles replaced some truly awfull ADL ones is proof enough!↲

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
did a trip to Pennicuik on the 15 the other day and compared to 18 months ago when I last did it on a Gemini the trident was, well indescribable!

There was a reason for the 15 being changed over from Gemini to Trident operation - the positioning of the nearside number screen. On the Geminis it occupies the bottom of the window and this affected the driver's vision when exiting Damhead junction on journeys towards Edinburgh. The nearside display on the Tridents is above the window, thereby not affecting vision.

 

[vicbury]

The grab rail design is also different on an E400, where the pole slots into another pole that fixes to the ceiling. Over time these can work loose, and rattle due to use and stress. They then don't fit it snugly and will rattle and move about a bit, but still stay in their socket. The problem is then however, once they do work loose, they are not supported by the top part of the structure as much, which then makes the bottom part of the pole, which attaches to the seat, take more stress to compensate.

This eventually causes the other end of the fitting to the seat to also wear much quicker since it's now taking the burden of the pressure of the part which is no longer rigidly attached, in some cases this then makes the back of the seat bend, depending on the type of seat used. This also happened on ALX400's but didn't seem to happen as much, but was obviously worse when bench seats were used, since this made the bench seats bend back to a bigger angle than they were originally.

The much better, Wright way of doing it, is to simply to nail the pole to the body with two bolts rather than using an attachment that isn't, which reduces rattles since there is nothing for the pole to rattle around in.

I couldn't agree more, we have Enviro 200s in Bath which are less than a year old and the grab rails are already loose and rattly.

Enviro 400s aren't as good as Geminis no matter which chassis they are on; ADL chassis is too bouncy and Scania chassis is too crashy and the engines too noisy.

My favourite double deckers are Gemini integrals, followed by B9 Geminis.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Thanks for all your comments folks, really interesting to see!

I went to Ross-on-Wye today and noticed a few Stagecoach Gloucestershire Enviro 400s on the 32 and 33 route. One I did see was 15878 (VX 13 FLE); however, I'm not sure if this is an example of an ADL or Scania-bodied chassis. I was expecting it to sound very similar to NXWM's and Newport Transport's. I prefer the sound of these.

I presume that there are two seperate bodied types, and two seperately engine types?