Entire 800/801/802 fleet stood down for safety checks

[43096]

But do they actually go into the ScotRail depot, or at they stabled in the Station overnight? In which case, It might make it a bit more difficult for an engineer to check them over whilst they are sat in the platform. Equally, Hitachi may be doing something like NDT on them and checking in specific areas, which again may have to be depot checked (and they may have the specific equipment for it) - it also saves ScotRail having to train their engineers to look out for what Hitachi are looking at.

If that's the case, just say so rather than fobbing us off with the "not enough time" line which doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

 

[DanNCL]

I'm not buying that as the reason. The Chieftain arrives in Inverness just after 8pm and leaves just before 8am the next morning, so it has nearly 12 hours of down time, which is far more than many other sets have on depot. So what's the real reason? Detachi want the checks done on an East Coast depot? ScotRail asking too much money for the checks?

As ever, it's yet another example of the railway doing things for its own convenience rather than what is best for passengers. What this means is that the Chieftain is no longer a through service - might just as well not run it north of Edinburgh and send it to EC to have its checks done...

But do they actually go into the ScotRail depot, or at they stabled in the Station overnight? In which case, It might make it a bit more difficult for an engineer to check them over whilst they are sat in the platform. Equally, Hitachi may be doing something like NDT on them and checking in specific areas, which again may have to be depot checked (and they may have the specific equipment for it) - it also saves ScotRail having to train their engineers to look out for what Hitachi are looking at.

The unit spends most of the night in the station. It does do a shunt into the depot for the toilet tanks to be emptied, but is back in the station after a couple of hours and remains there til heading south again in the morning.

The 23:00 from Kings Cross to York now uses a unit straight off Bounds Green for the same reason, although that’s only a short term issue as from the 7th June that service will go back to being Mark 4 operated.

 

[800001]

I'm not buying that as the reason. The Chieftain arrives in Inverness just after 8pm and leaves just before 8am the next morning, so it has nearly 12 hours of down time, which is far more than many other sets have on depot. So what's the real reason? Detachi want the checks done on an East Coast depot? ScotRail asking too much money for the checks?

As ever, it's yet another example of the railway doing things for its own convenience rather than what is best for passengers. What this means is that the Chieftain is no longer a through service - might just as well not run it north of Edinburgh and send it to EC to have its checks done...

Don't buy it as a reason, but it is the Thruth. The unit only gets fuelled and toilets emptied at Inverness depot, as soon as fuelling is done it returns to the station and stables overnight.
And I'm sure lner would love to do with out the aggro if having to make people change trains, but this is a situation forced on them, not of there own making.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 May 2021 ==

I'm not buying that as the reason. The Chieftain arrives in Inverness just after 8pm and leaves just before 8am the next morning, so it has nearly 12 hours of down time, which is far more than many other sets have on depot. So what's the real reason? Detachi want the checks done on an East Coast depot? ScotRail asking too much money for the checks?

As ever, it's yet another example of the railway doing things for its own convenience rather than what is best for passengers. What this means is that the Chieftain is no longer a through service - might just as well not run it north of Edinburgh and send it to EC to have its checks done...

As for the not enough time, its on Inverness depot, less than 2 hours, that includes shunts from station, to depot and back to station when driver clocks off.

 

[PHILIPE]

I guess you were partly joking but a 143 actually made it to Reading years ago vice 158 on one of the Waterloo trains!

Actually it made it to Paddington before the destination of the train changed to Waterloo.

 

[800001]

The unit spends most of the night in the station. It does do a shunt into the depot for the toilet tanks to be emptied, but is back in the station after a couple of hours and remains there til heading south again in the morning.

The 23:00 from Kings Cross to York now uses a unit straight off Bounds Green for the same reason, although that’s only a short term issue as from the 7th June that service will go back to being Mark 4 operated.

The 2300 Kings Cross to York is not for that reason and has being doing that long before these safety checks came about.
It is because each Azuma gets a Fitness to Run certificate which lasts 36 hours from when it leaves a depot, as this stables overnight in York, it allows it to be out in passenger traffic all of the following day.

 

[robbeech]

The 2300 Kings Cross to York is not for that reason and has being doing that long before these safety checks came about.
It is because each Azuma gets a Fitness to Run certificate which lasts 36 hours from when it leaves a depot, as this stables overnight in York, it allows it to be out in passenger traffic all of the following day.

OT, is that 36 clock hours or 36 running hours?

 

[800001]

OT, is that 36 clock hours or 36 running hours?

Clock hours.
That's why you will see various units coming of the likes of Neville Hill late afternoon, or the likes of Craigentinny during the afternoon, as well as the York stabler, there is often one that stables overnight at Kings Cross to form, I think, 1D01.

 

[edwin_m]

I'm not buying that as the reason. The Chieftain arrives in Inverness just after 8pm and leaves just before 8am the next morning, so it has nearly 12 hours of down time, which is far more than many other sets have on depot. So what's the real reason? Detachi want the checks done on an East Coast depot? ScotRail asking too much money for the checks?

As ever, it's yet another example of the railway doing things for its own convenience rather than what is best for passengers. What this means is that the Chieftain is no longer a through service - might just as well not run it north of Edinburgh and send it to EC to have its checks done...

I imagine also Hitachi don't want to send a trained team all the way to Inverness to check over one train, when they could check many more if they stayed in Edinburgh.

 

[DanNCL]

The 2300 Kings Cross to York is not for that reason and has being doing that long before these safety checks came about.
It is because each Azuma gets a Fitness to Run certificate which lasts 36 hours from when it leaves a depot, as this stables overnight in York, it allows it to be out in passenger traffic all of the following day.

If the fitness to run certificate is valid for 36 hours then I would have thought it would make more sense for the Inverness services to also use a unit fresh off Bounds Green, removing the need for the Edinburgh unit swap.

 

[Horizon22]

Clock hours.
That's why you will see various units coming of the likes of Neville Hill late afternoon, or the likes of Craigentinny during the afternoon, as well as the York stabler, there is often one that stables overnight at Kings Cross to form, I think, 1D01.

It's the same with GWR - sets returning usually from Worcester or Cheltenham often in the middle of the day, although that is often a refuelling requirement.

 

[800001]

If the fitness to run certificate is valid for 36 hours then I would have thought it would make more sense for the Inverness services to also use a unit fresh off Bounds Green, removing the need for the Edinburgh unit swap.

All depends on depot capacity, how the Diagrams are interworked etc.
Am sure lner would love to not have to change trains, but, it is what it is.

 

[43096]

All depends on depot capacity, how the Diagrams are interworked etc.
Am sure lner would love to not have to change trains, but, it is what it is.

That's the problem with the railway: "it is what it is". Detachi have never been noted for being flexible to help their customers, so the suspicion is that this doesn't suit them and they're not really bothered about it. As always it is the end punter that suffers.

Let's hope this debacle results in Detachi losing future bids.

 

[800001]

That's the problem with the railway: "it is what it is". Detachi have never been noted for being flexible to help their customers, so the suspicion is that this doesn't suit them and they're not really bothered about it. As always it is the end punter that suffers.

Let's hope this debacle results in Detachi losing future bids.

What would you like to do at Inverness depot, which is a Scotrail depot?

How would you deal with this unexpected situation?.

You said they may as well terminate at Edinburgh, then what? Stick the customers on a bus to Inverness? Stick them all on a 3 car Turbostar?

It's all very good, all of us armchair experts sitting here giving critism (some at times justified), but do you really think lner/Hitachi are doing this just for fun.

 

[43096]

What would you like to do at Inverness depot, which is a Scotrail depot?

How would you deal with this unexpected situation?.

You said they may as well terminate at Edinburgh, then what? Stick the customers on a bus to Inverness? Stick them all on a 3 car Turbostar?

Could use one of those HST things that ScotRail have.

It's all very good, all of us armchair experts sitting here giving critism (some at times justified), but do you really think lner/Hitachi are doing this just for fun.

How about sorting the diagrams so the set doesn't need checking at Inverness?

I suspect Hitachi are the real villains in this. No doubt they are being as inflexible as always (aided and abetted by the contract DfT signed), despite it being their trains that are the root cause. As I said, they really need running out of the industry here - I've always had a problem with them having access to the European market, yet the likes of Alstom and Siemens don't have access to the Japanese market in the same way.

 

[Ianno87]

How about sorting the diagrams so the set doesn't need checking at Inverness?

They've done that - it just involves a set swap at Edinburgh.

Not much can be done to switch diagrams at the Kings Cross end due to the currently reduced platform capacity - the stock workings are what they are.

 

[43096]

They've done that - it just involves a set swap at Edinburgh.

Which doesn't help the customers.

I do hope LNER are counting this as a "fail to fulfil diagram" under the IEP contract.

 

[Ianno87]

Which doesn't help the customers.

Please, tell. What, specifically, would be better? LNER ought to know. A bit more detail than "sort out the diagrams", please.

(In the circumstances, a change of train at Edinburgh, whilst inconvenient, is hardly a big deal)

 

[Stathern Jc]

Are there any overnight layovers on the Aberdeen services that mean passengers have to transfer between trains on the way there as well?
Or is it just an inconvenience to the Chieftain?

 

[Emaharg]

As Scotrail still have decided not allow any passengers in their HSTs first class section, a set swap is preferable to a three carriage buffet less experience, every time. Otherwise with a buffet and those lovely ex GWR 1st seats I take the HST.

 

[800001]

Are there any overnight layovers on the Aberdeen services that mean passengers have to transfer between trains on the way there as well?
Or is it just an inconvenience to the Chieftain?

2 a night, lner have a depot there

 

[Stathern Jc]

Thanks.
Really just the remote nature of the Inverness stop then.
Inconvenient, but it should be remembered that the Chieftain is the only service in the day that doesn't (normally) involve a change at Edinburgh anyway.

 

[Pokelet]

The first 5Z00 ( 12.30 of Hereford ) cancelled due to driver not signing the route via Abergavenny but train was able to go to BPW via Chartfield ( 2nd 5Z00 - 13.18 of Hereford) as that route is signed by Worcester HSS crew.

Do any GWR drivers sign via Abergavenny anymore? I know in the past it was a Bristol crew for the first 2 east in the morning and for 2 west bound trips in the evening that didn't then turn back.

 

[JN114]

Do any GWR drivers sign via Abergavenny anymore? I know in the past it was a Bristol crew for the first 2 east in the morning and for 2 west bound trips in the evening that didn't then turn back.

Bristol still do, for the exact reason you stated.

Worcester crews (who were sent to fetch this broken IET from Hereford) do not.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Do any GWR drivers sign via Abergavenny anymore? I know in the past it was a Bristol crew for the first 2 east in the morning and for 2 west bound trips in the evening that didn't then turn back.

Yes but it was link dependent when it was BTM work and the way the links are structured, it's possible for competency to have lapsed without being able to route refresh on TfW services.

Also, it's now Parkway work and a fair number of the Parkway drivers didn't sign Hereford, let alone via Abergavenny when they went up there. Covid has put a halt to route learning, so availability of crew to work that way, outside of booked diagrams, is loe

 

[chiltern trev]

Some photo's of the lifting pocket cracks, taken from Mark Hopwood's Linkedin feed...

Interesting that the crack starts at the outer end where the right hand upper arm of the underneath jacking point bracket appears to be bolted into bolster/bottom of coach.

What if the jacking arm (on the jack) does not go in straight but at an angle such that it acts like a wedge and on being pushed in thereby tries to force the jacking point wider open which after a lot of misaligned insertions could cause a crack?

 

[Steve Harris]

Interesting that the crack starts at the outer end where the right hand upper arm of the underneath jacking point bracket appears to be bolted into bolster/bottom of coach.

What if the jacking arm (on the jack) does not go in straight but at an angle such that it acts like a wedge and on being pushed in thereby tries to force the jacking point wider open which after a lot of misaligned insertions could cause a crack?

I doubt that would cause a crack starting at the outer edge of the bolster as I would expect the hoop at the bottom of the jacking hole to distort/fail first.

 

[Pokelet]

Bristol still do, for the exact reason you stated.

Worcester crews (who were sent to fetch this broken IET from Hereford) do not.

Thanks and apologies. I assumed that with the Worcester GWR depot opening it would be covered by Worcester crews and stabled units overnight.

Does the same Bristol crew work the whole journey through to PAD?

 

[DaveHarries]

I’d imagine South Cotswolds via Stroud will be one of the last, on the basis that it is usually one of the first to be cancelled when there is service disruption.

Rather unfortunately, one of the two DMUs running this service has just developed a fault at Swindon!

EDIT: Both units operating these services have now developed a fault. A class 158 is stuck at Swindon with a communications fault and a class 165 requires maintenance attention on arrival at Gloucester.

I think it was the 158 that was still in Platform 2 when I was at Swindon early in the afternoon: I arrived at around 1:30 and left about 2 hours later without that unit moving. Got some good photos at Swindon during that 2-hour period before I moved on to Theale to photo the c2c 387s which were working that route (378301 & 378302).

Dave

 

[PG]

I doubt that would cause a crack starting at the outer edge of the bolster as I would expect the hoop at the bottom of the jacking hole to distort/fail first.

I'm no materials expert but if the metal that the hoop is fabricated from is stronger than what it is secured to, that might explain the location of the crack in the scenario mentioned.

EDIT
Not sure that I buy the misaligned jack theory. Much more credible (and worrying) is the under specified metal referred to up thread - seems like someone got their sums wrong

 

[37057]

Screws for the anvil support bracket too long & bottomed out?

While I'm only speculating that would certainly create sustained pressure within the same piece of material and as it looks as if there are two screws on the outer end (in relation to bogie centre), that's the width of the material under that pressure. Also noticed that it seems to be the driving vehicles that have these brackets screwed on, the others appear to have them welded in place - not sure which cars are affected (not studied that) but the photos a few pages back are the former type.