Enterprising staff

[Lawman]

Folks... this hit the papers up here..

A Scotrail employee working the Glasgow to Inverness route in his capacity as an onboard caterer.. was found guilty of fraud at Glasgow Sheriff Court.

The said employee purchased a huge amount of tea/coffee from the official Scotrail supplier! He then sold these products on board the train and pocketed the money! Albeit there was other refreshments being sold on they trains, he was selling the tea/coffee himself! Scotrail were alerted when the supplier found these orders to be suspicious and contacted them to report this.

Scotrail carried out an investigation and the employee admitted the offence.
It would appear from speaking with friends that this person made an absolute fortune!! The person thereafter resigned from the company!

Anyone know of any other similar events??

 

[Greenback]

Although it may be enterprising, it is also fraud and yes, the person in question would have been guilty of a serious offence. You may find it humourous, but it is not new and not funny for the company or for the now ex employee with a criminal record to show for a few quid profit.

I much preferred the old story about the newspaper ad for 50 cigarette lighters for £5, which resulted in the delivery of a box of matches. The perpetrator could not be prosecuted because he was indeed providing 50 items that could light a cigarette...

 

[pendolino]

There's a lot of similar stories in Stephen Poole's book during his days at ICOBS.

 

[185]

I think that it's not really necessarily fraud, unless Scottish law is different.

Washing the used cups out in the bog and then reselling them to the customers with your own coffee in is something Snotrail should be worried about.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

There's a lot of similar stories in Stephen Poole's book during his days at ICOBS.

Yes, I understand that a lot of 'scams' have been practiced by catering crews over the years, taking advantage of the opportunities to bring goods on-board undetected and to cash-up in privacy. On occasions, the passengers have even been offered more choice than had been planned by the Company!

These opportunities for the criminal have been greater in the days of cash-only transactions and before CCTV appeared on stations and on-board trains.
I must add that I have no knowledge of any such activities taking place in current times.

 

[YorkshireRider]

Ha, ha. The guys that were around since BR at work are full of stories like these, they brought in there own bacon and bread, coffee, tea, a few grates of lager on the football specials, they tell me some months they didnt need to even touch their wage. No chance these days and really not worth the risk.
Been told a great story about bacon sandwiches having to be thrown out of an HST window when a BR manager got on

 

[The Barlow Boy]

Blimus the tales that could be told about St. Pancras catering crews in B.R. days are legendary.

 

[Lawman]

Although it may be enterprising, it is also fraud and yes, the person in question would have been guilty of a serious offence. You may find it humourous, but it is not new and not funny for the company or for the now ex employee with a criminal record to show for a few quid profit.

I much preferred the old story about the newspaper ad for 50 cigarette lighters for £5, which resulted in the delivery of a box of matches. The perpetrator could not be prosecuted because he was indeed providing 50 items that could light a cigarette...

Greenback.. yes i agree its not funny for the company or employer.. and neither do i find this humerous!! "Enterprising staff" was not my first choice of title however..i received a wee row from the forum police but iv apologised and gave them a wee cuddle!! lol

And the "lighters".. £5 for 50.... way too expensive..lol

 

[Greenback]

Greenback.. yes i agree its not funny for the company or employer.. and neither do i find this humerous!! Enterprising was not my first choice of title however..i received a wee row from the forum police but iv apologised and gave them a wee cuddle!! lol

And the "lighters".. £5 for 50.... way too expesive..lol

I think I was having a bit of a humour crisis when I posted my comment! I'm sorry I was so po faced! I did find the old Western Region scams funny in the 1980's, especially the home made sandwiches that passengers preferred to the BR ones!

 

[Wyvern]

I often wondered when I got on an MML HST at St.Pancras and was sold a nice fresh bread roll with a grilled sausage in it. Not on the advertised menu.

Often wondered if the bloke was CMOT Dibbler. *

* You need to be a Terry Pratchett fan to understand this.

 

[Aictos]

I often wondered when I got on an MML HST at St.Pancras and was sold a nice fresh bread roll with a grilled sausage in it. Not on the advertised menu.

Often wondered if the bloke was CMOT Dibbler. *

* You need to be a Terry Pratchett fan to understand this.

Well WSMR certainly has some enterprising crews, certainly was good enough of the crew to rustle up a unadvertised meal for me last time I used them.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Blimus the tales that could be told about St. Pancras catering crews in B.R. days are legendary.

You might well think that, I couldn't possibly comment.

 

[yorkie]

Any chance of a link to the article?

The only scandal I could find on that route was this bizarre one about a member of catering staff activating the emergency alarm: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/2642957.stm

 

[scotsman]

Any chance of a link to the article?

The only scandal I could find on that route was this bizarre one about a member of catering staff activating the emergency alarm: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/2642957.stm

"Tomlinson had managed to obtain a key which enabled him to gain access to the secure area of the cabin and activate the emergency stop button located there."

'managed' implies there was some difficulty in obtaining a T-Key

 

[Lawman]

Any chance of a link to the article?

The only scandal I could find on that route was this bizarre one about a member of catering staff activating the emergency alarm: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/2642957.stm

After a thorough search Yorkie, this was all i could find!! Hope this helps!

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/TEA+L...AIN+STEWARD+CAUGHT+SELLING+HIS...-a0242981637

 

[Dolive22]

I don't know about Scottish law, but in England and Wales that is fraud by abuse of a position of trust. You might also be able to run fraud by false pretences if people were misled in to thinking that the catering was official with intent to cause a gain or loss to any person. It is also a byelaw offence as you need written permission to carry on any trade or business on the railway.

 

[chuckles1066]

I much preferred the old story about the newspaper ad for 50 cigarette lighters for £5, which resulted in the delivery of a box of matches. The perpetrator could not be prosecuted because he was indeed providing 50 items that could light a cigarette...

There's a good one about a August 2009 Portsmouth - Bristol service where the trolley service was charging £3+ for a single can of 440ml Stella (not even cold).

Oh hang on, that was actually a true story......

 

[Greenback]

That's another example of why tolleys are bad...warm cold drinks!

 

[AlexS]

My mate was a Derby guard in the 1980s, he said the catering crews were like the mafia, they'd all turn up for work in BMWs etc, their bags were either full of stuff when they came in and empty when they went home, having sold it for the railways mark up rate and bought it at budget rate, or empty when they came in and full when they left.

 

[dk1]

Ha, ha. The guys that were around since BR at work are full of stories like these, they brought in there own bacon and bread, coffee, tea, a few grates of lager on the football specials, they tell me some months they didnt need to even touch their wage. No chance these days and really not worth the risk.
Been told a great story about bacon sandwiches having to be thrown out of an HST window when a BR manager got on

Thats why so many staff stayed on catering, despite inferior pay, for so long. BR days saw many staff bringing in loaves of bread & cheese etc. Most cars had several times the logged amount of coffee cups to give a decent amount of ready cash to pocket. I knew of many who brought in rucksacks full of lager from Tesco to sell on single manned late evening turns.

 

[tbtc]

One a serious note, if mark ups are so good, why aren't businesses pitching to run trolleys on more rail services?

For example, I don't think there is any catering on the Northern service from Nottingham to Leeds. A Nottingham/ Sheffield/ Leeds based cafe could offer Northern Rail a deal whereby they'd provide a trolley service on selected trains at no cost/charge - the TOC benefits from passengers getting a better on train "service"...

(assuming the mark-ups are as big as they sound)

 

[jon0844]

I can't understand why TOCs don't charge a set fee for someone (a company, not just Joe Public) to go along and sell things on trains where they don't wish to do so themselves. There's now an extra set of eyes and ears on the train, albeit only to report incidents to the TOC - not do any job that would replace a guard/train manager.

Or, they could have a smaller fee with a small cut of profits - but given the cheating going on, no doubt this would fail as the staff would say they didn't sell anything!

 

[Matt Taylor]

One a serious note, if mark ups are so good, why aren't businesses pitching to run trolleys on more rail services?

The profit margins appear high but the reality is that it is tough to make it pay, despite the generally low wages the labour costs are very high.

In the late 1990s I was a unit manager in the catering depot at Portsmouth for Wales & West and thereafter at Crewe also. Revenue was split three ways between wages, product costs and overheads with no significant money leftover at the end of the day. A corner shop can bring in a grand a day and will typically do this with one early staff member and one late, as a depot we would bring in the same amount of money but it would require seven members of staff to work the seven diagrams that we had to cover-that helps explain the high staffing costs, and that does not include the two office staff required per day in the depot. Then add in the overheads such as head office wages, electricity bills (it takes a lot of electricity to keep the water tanks hot all day), other utility bills, rental of the trolleys and water tanks, maintennance of the trolleys etc etc etc.....the money soon dries up.

Then there are other factors such as how busy are the trains? In order to cover the 'prime train' which used to be the 0900 Brighton-Cardiff we would also have to work the pointless 0718 Havant-Brighton and poorly loaded 1330 Cardiff-Portsmouth. At the other end of the scale were the 1324, 1424 and 1524 Portsmouth-Cardiffs trains on a friday afternoon, it was those trains on which the good staff showed some effort and ploughed through the train while the lazy ones would say the train was too busy to work and give up (that's if the traincrew haven't already kicked you off due to overcrowding).

 

[jon0844]

I guess you have a good point; if someone 'enterprising' does it on their own, they have no overheads. Their profit is all profit - and they've not factored in a salary (especially if done on the side). Oh, and they probably don't worry about TAX and VAT either.

Still, there's no harm in a TOC trying it - as they've got little (nothing?) to lose if they simply charge a company to sell things onboard. They clearly do this with the likes of Selecta on the platforms, presumably for a fixed fee and no revenue sharing?

 

[scotsman]

The issue with companies going on is that they tend to alienate passengers (and TOCs) from onboard catering with their ridiculous prices. I remember that one of the first things First Group did when they got ScotRail was sack the catering company and brought it in house before making a fuss of how it was going to get cheaper...aye right!

 

[142094]

I can't understand why TOCs don't charge a set fee for someone (a company, not just Joe Public) to go along and sell things on trains where they don't wish to do so themselves. There's now an extra set of eyes and ears on the train, albeit only to report incidents to the TOC - not do any job that would replace a guard/train manager.

Or, they could have a smaller fee with a small cut of profits - but given the cheating going on, no doubt this would fail as the staff would say they didn't sell anything!

Not sure what the deal is with Northern but on certain trains across the S+C the Friends of the S+C Railway run a trolley service (or at least used to do so), which I bet made a killing - especially since the run between Leeds and Carlisle is quite a long one without refreshments.

 

[Dolive22]

I guess you have a good point; if someone 'enterprising' does it on their own, they have no overheads. Their profit is all profit - and they've not factored in a salary (especially if done on the side). Oh, and they probably don't worry about TAX and VAT either.

...QUOTE]

In theory as food there would be no VAT on most of it, but with no Class 1 NI (or if you think of it as self employment class 2 and 4) and no income tax the effective wage is much higher.

They also have the usual advantage of the illegal, unlicenced trader of not having to bother with any of the usual rules such as food hygiene laws.

 

[googolplex]

If food's "eaten in" though, I believe it is subject to VAT. However a small trader is unlikely to earn enough to have to be VAT registered.
Additionally, to be allowed to trade on the train it's highly likely they'd be required to have the food hygiene certificates and liability insurance etc.

 

[Dolive22]

I was referring to the people doing it illegally. If you want to do it legally you would need food hygeineg certificates and inspections, a properly hygienic kitchen, at least two sorts of insurance, etc.

I don't think eating in attracts VAT any more, but in any case you could argue they aren't eating in any more than someone who buys an ice cream from a van is eating in because the van is in the park. Especially if it's someone trading on their own account rather than that of the TOC, even if they pay the TOC for the right to do so. The bad news is by the time you have a handful of people turnover will be high enough for VAT registration. That's if HMRC doesn't say that it's a synthetic difference and should be lumped in with the TOC for threshold pruposes.

 

[Greenback]

As with any business there will be costs involved in setting up a company to sell drinks and snacks on a train. These will include getting tariffs printed, buying or leasing the trolleys, public liability insurance and corporate clothing to idnetify you as an authorised person (unauthorised vendors are quite a problem in parts of Europe, or at least they used to be).

On top of this, I imagine the TOC would want some sort of payment for allowing you to access their trains and customers, whether this be some sort of rent, or a percentage of profit.

It'sa bit more complicated than just buying some kit kats from Tesco's and selling them on for double the price. Unless you want to be an illegal or enterprising trader of course!