Enoch Powell

[Butts]

Was Enoch Powell one of the greatest Parliamenterians of the 20th Century, a brilliant orator and classically educated scholar who more than once resigned on principle from Government Office.

He started the war as a Private and ended it as a Brigadier.

Remembered for his "rivers of blood speech" which was political suicide - less well remembered his speech in the 50's condemning the treatment of "Mau Mau" rebels in Kenya - quite topical today.

With regard to his "rivers of blood" speech less well publicised (or conveniently disregarded) is the fact that a poll of the electorate showed 74% of respondents agreed with him. Who now remarks on the fact following his speech Trade Unionists marched in support of him even suggesting he should have been made Prime Minister.

One of his speeches in parliament in the 50's was described by Denis Healey as "the greatest speech he had ever heard in there"


Could Powell have been Prime Minister ?

 

[Metroland]

It was still racist, though I don't think it was meant to be.

Britain had just about lost the Empire. Us plucky Brits were still of the opinion we should rule the world, and social attitudes at the time were outwardly hostile and politically incorrect to any 'foreigners'. No blacks, no Irish was just about 'socially acceptable' on the entrance to bed and breakfasts. America was even more racist at the time!

During the 1950s we were entering a new global age, where cheap air travel was just coming on stream, and containerisation of shipping meant cheap foreign imports threatened people's work.

That said, it was a period of full employment, where people could walk into jobs for life, and those coming on from abroad (as they are today) were seen as cheap labour needed to fill vacancies of unskilled, and semi-skilled jobs.

People saw the influx of these new people as a threat. Indeed, in some professions they do today in some quarters.

The Tories countered some of this with the election slogan "If you want a ****** for a neighbour, vote Labour.". Unthinkable today. But at the time, no wonder 74% of people agreed with Enoch!

Before the 1970s 'political incorrectness' was quite acceptable. Women were second class, gay people and foreigners were to be seen with some suspicion, and Health & Safety culture unheard of. In class ridden Britain, workers had to put up with it.

In today's globalised world, where more women go to university than men, people demand that companies behave in an ethical way, and people from all walks of life are seen in the same place, social attitudes, especially among the young, have completely changed.

I think Powell was one of the last of his generation, reflect the views of the generation at the time, especially those that remember the Victorian empire. The 1960s and 70s changed the country so much, we are almost a different people, certainly operating in a different global context. If he had of become Prime minister, it would have been very short lived, time were changing even back then and Britain was becoming more progressive.

 

[Cable Car]

He also ended the war by voting Labour.

 

[Butts]

He also ended the war by voting Labour.

That was to punish Churchill - indeed he later went on to reccomend people vote Labour in 1974 which some people suspect cost Heath an outright majority and ended up an Ulster Unionist.

He was great friends with another maverick but great parliamenterian Tony Benn.

 

[ainsworth74]

He also ended the war by voting Labour.

I think the war was over no matter who won the election. By the time that Labour came to power finishing off the Pacific Theatre was out of our hands to a large degree.

 

[kylemore]

Could Powell have been Prime Minister ?

God no!

Much too honest and an intellectual to boot.

The happiest most settled countries in the world are ones which are most homogenious, some people might not like that, or think it should be different, maybe it should be different, I don't know, but facts are facts and Powell was honest enough to point them out.
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That was to punish Churchill.

I did'nt know he disliked Churchill - God he's gone up even more in my estimation!

 

[Oswyntail]

It was still racist, though I don't think it was meant to be.

I don't think it was "racist". What he was saying was that, if immigration was uncontrolled, there would likely be civil unrest (and the quotation directly referred to that - naively he seemed to think his audience would remember their Virgil). He did not blame any group for causing such unrest, and was calling for a proper approach to integration, involving all community groups. Had he been listened to, and such an approach taken, Britain might have had it slightly easier over the last couple of decades.
....

The Tories countered some of this with the election slogan "If you want a ****** for a neighbour, vote Labour.". ....

Well, yes and no. The slogan appeared on posters in the Smethwick by-election, but the Tory candidate (whose name escapes me) denied it was in any way connected with him. This was generally accepted at the time, and the origin of the (very poorly produced) posters was never established. Of course since then the urban myth that it was a Tory slogan has grown somewhat.

I think Powell was one of those rare politicians who actually thought things through, and lived by considered beliefs, very similar in this respect to Tony Benn. Sadly, neither saw the value of pragmatism. Would have been a disastrous PM, for that reason. (And his edition of Thucydides is still up there!)

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I met Powell once, in the mid to late 1980s.

 

[Butts]

I met Powell once, in the mid to late 1980s.

And ? , don't leave us on tenterhooks

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Not a lot to tell really; he was giving a speech locally that was arranged by the Young Conservatives. Can't remember much about it after more than ¼ a century has passed - sorry! But I was introduced to him afterwards by the organisers ( as were dozens of others ); you know the sort of thing - long line up, brief hello, thank you for visiting Epsom, quick handshake - that was it.

 

[bailey65]

The country is a lot more settled with multi culturalism now though there are still some problems.
Islamic extemism is only supported by a small minority of the muslim community mainly misguided youths but the media especially the mail and the sun would have everyone believe that near enough the whole muslim community believes in it.
There are also some problems in inner cities but attitudes and the general environment as regards race is light years from the days of the 60' and 70's.

 

[Johnuk123]

Islamic extemism is only supported by a small minority of the muslim community mainly misguided youths but the media especially the mail and the sun would have everyone believe that near enough the whole muslim community believes in it.

Unfortunately only a small minority is needed to cause mass death and destruction.

Only this week we have a trial of potential suicide bombers from Birmingham and poppy sellers having to have minders because of violent muslims in Bradford.

 

[Butts]

The country is a lot more settled with multi culturalism now though there are still some problems.
Islamic extemism is only supported by a small minority of the muslim community mainly misguided youths but the media especially the mail and the sun would have everyone believe that near enough the whole muslim community believes in it.
There are also some problems in inner cities but attitudes and the general environment as regards race is light years from the days of the 60' and 70's.

This may be true in large Cities but not in rural areas to a large degree. Where I live in Falkirk which is not exactly "rural" it is nearly "pure white", and I actually notice a non-white pedestrian.

 

[Oswyntail]

This may be true in large Cities but not in rural areas to a large degree. Where I live in Falkirk which is not exactly "rural" it is nearly "pure white", and I actually notice a non-white pedestrian.

But what does that prove? It is easy to forget that the vast majority in this country are "white", and that there are huge tracts just as you describe Falkirk to be. Just because no "non whites" have moved there does not mean the area has a problem with them

 

[Butts]

But what does that prove? It is easy to forget that the vast majority in this country are "white", and that there are huge tracts just as you describe Falkirk to be. Just because no "non whites" have moved there does not mean the area has a problem with them

True it's a little diffilcult to have a problem with something that does not exist

 

[LE Greys]

This may be true in large Cities but not in rural areas to a large degree. Where I live in Falkirk which is not exactly "rural" it is nearly "pure white", and I actually notice a non-white pedestrian.

Maybe that's only true of Scotland, my village has had ethnic minority and mixed-race families since before I was born, yet nobody really paid much attention, they just treated them as they would any other incomers, a bit hostile at first, but gradually they became fixtures.

 

[Lampshade]

The country is a lot more settled with multi culturalism now though there are still some problems.

I'd say people are more scathing of multiculturalism now than say, 20 years ago. Every other week stories emerge (NOT exclusively to the Daily Mail) of Police covering up crimes through fear of being branded racist, look at Rochdale or Rotherham.

 

[Butts]

Maybe that's only true of Scotland, my village has had ethnic minority and mixed-race families since before I was born, yet nobody really paid much attention, they just treated them as they would any other incomers, a bit hostile at first, but gradually they became fixtures.

Check out Cumbria, Westmoreland and most of the "Border Country" - apart from "Middle Class Ethnics" they are mainly found in areas with work - or a history of it !!

In Scotland mainly Glasgow , Edinburgh and Aberdeen - but strangely not many Afro-Carribeans mainly Indians and Asians.

The largest "ethnic group" in Scotland are the English who make up 10% of the population ("White Settlers" as they are known in rural areas)

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Dundee also has a considerable (by Scottish standards at least) South Asian population too I believe, though I always though those backgrounds to be concentrated mostly in South Glasgow. I'll be honest and say I was amazed the first time I saw a mosque built near Mossend Junction, I always had Coatbridge down as one of the most Catholic towns in Britain.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

But what does that prove? It is easy to forget that the vast majority in this country are "white", and that there are huge tracts just as you describe Falkirk to be. Just because no "non whites" have moved there does not mean the area has a problem with them

Has there ever been any problems with Muslim radicalism in the working-class areas of large settlements in either Northern Ireland or Eire ?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

There aren't actually that many! There's a small Muslim community in both Belfast and Dublin, however there's never been any trouble with either commumnity, I think any radicals are more likely to be in the larger Muslim areas in English cities. To give you some sort of idea of the numbers - only three cities have a sizeable Muslim community - Belfast, Dublin and Galway - and none to the best of my knowledge have any purpose-built mosques, which usually get built rather quickly when numbers demand.

 

[Geezertronic]

Seems to always be a lot of anti-terrorism arrests in Birmingham. Don't know what that is like compared to other English regions though