England's new three-tier lockdown system

[Howardh]

Just caught a glimpse of today's figures on the news, both cases and deaths are slightly down it appears. Maybe with the current restrictions we have roughly hit the peak and further ones won't be needed.

 

[DustyBin]

Sadly, people in China, Taiwan, Singapore, Vietnam, New Zealand, Australia are laughing their heads off at comments like this.
They have stopped the virus in its tracks completely, while it seems that only viable way left in UK is herd immunity (i.e. let everyone catch it, and hope not too many die), and we cannot even wait for stage 3 vaccine test results, which should be available in a month or so. Russia has already authorised 2 vaccines.
This is a real eye opener to "western democracy and freedom".

Have they really stoppped it in it’s tracks? I don’t believe a word the Chinese government says, and whilst I do believe New Zealand has contained it, they need to rejoin the rest of the world at some point, surely? Barring a miracle vaccine, all they’re doing is delaying the inevitable. As for the Russian vaccine, I’ll give it a miss.... I’m not a Russophobe incidentally, but I am suspicious of their COVID-19 vaccine(s), for now at least. I do however agree that our freedom and democracy is being undermined.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do people think Burnham's "Foot Down" today makes a half term "circuit breaker" lockdown more or less likely?

I'd say it makes it likely tier 3 will be imposed on him, particularly if Lancashire accepts it (which I think they will, if nothing else I know one of their public health people and he is very much a "lockdown enthusiast" and at the moment personally believes that there should be a March style second long full lockdown).

I don't know how it influences the circuit breaker idea, I think that is near certain anyway, I suspect it'll be announced 2 days before as usual.

 

[duncanp]

I don't know how it influences the circuit breaker idea, I think that is near certain anyway, I suspect it'll be announced 2 days before as usual.

The problem with all these proposals for "circuit breaker" lockdowns is that no-one can agree on how long they need to be in order to be effective, nor on what happens next.

Nicola Sturgeon is reported to be considering a series of "tough new restrictions" in todays Scottish papers, with the introduction of a tiered system similar to what is in place in England at the moment.

I think we should wait and see what the effect of the restrictions currently in place in the Central Belt of Scotland are. They are due to end on October 25th, and we will be able to see whether they have really "set back the progress of the virus by 28 days", as some people seem to think is possible. Then we can consider the effect of these restrictions on the Scottish economy, and decide whether the economic pain is worth it.

Similarly with the restrictions in Liverpool, and the proposed restrictions in Northern Ireland. By the middle of November, we will be able to see what effect they have had on the number of cases of COVID-19, and the effect on the economy.

 

[radamfi]

Why does the government suddenly care what the north's opinion is?

 

[ainsworth74]

Why does the government suddenly care what the north's opinion is?

Since a big chunk of their majority rests on the new Northern Tory MPs I'd assume...

 

[Philip]

Why does the government suddenly care what the north's opinion is?

They are governing the whole country, not just a particular region.

 

[yorksrob]

The third tier seems to be completely pointless in terms of impact on transmission and should be abandoned.

I can sort of see that the second tier restrictions might have some limited impact, in terms of stopping households mixing indoors, however unless you do something about transmission in educational and workplace settings (which no one seems prepared to do) then its not going to make much difference.

Personally, I think that having a suite of sensible precautions such as the rule of six, face coverings, partial working from home, support for those self-isolating, track and trace etc, whilst enabling more vulnerable residents to take additional precautions as necessary, is the only sustainable way forward.

 

[Ianno87]

Personally, I think that having a suite of sensible precautions such as the rule of six, face coverings, partial working from home, support for those self-isolating, track and trace etc, whilst enabling more vulnerable residents to take additional precautions as necessary, is the only sustainable way forward.

There just needs to be a constant position, and stick to it for a while. All this coming in and out of various restrictions and arguments is confusing and exhausting.

 

[Yew]

There just needs to be a constant position, and stick to it for a while. All this coming in and out of various restrictions and arguments is confusing and exhausting.

Indeed, there should probably be a minimum time before a region can be moved from Tier 2, to Tier 3, to allow the changes to actually make a difference.

 

[roversfan2001]

Lancashire is moving to tier 3, with Johnson due to make a formal announcement shortly according to Sky and BBC News.

I hope the locktivists at the council are happy.

 

[kristiang85]

Personally, I think that having a suite of sensible precautions such as the rule of six, face coverings, partial working from home, support for those self-isolating, track and trace etc, whilst enabling more vulnerable residents to take additional precautions as necessary, is the only sustainable way forward.

This seems sensible indeed, though even some of those are too much for me to be honest (e.g. rule of six), given it now seems you have a 1 in 500 chance of dying if you catch the virus overall, and 1 in 2000 if you're under 70 (according to the WHO this week!). We now understand the virus more than spring, and how to treat it, and whilst back then the lockdown and other measures were fully justified, anything too detrimental to a normal functioning country just isn't now.

I say we need to get back to sensible normality - but with lots of hygiene awareness and campaigns (like in March) and sanitiser stations everywhere, personal social distancing where possible but not to the detriment of business (basically let people be sensible), allow big events but not at full capacity, strict isolation if you test positive (with government funded sick pay if so), working from home still encouraged but by no means compulsory, and mask wearing advised but not mandatory. For vulnerable people, they can assess the risk themselves - like they would do in a bad flu season, which happens every few years. Let people be adults.

I just can't see the justification for anything more than that. The damage to the economy is going to cause such a decline in funding for the NHS and healthcare which will do far more damage to it than a few extra beds being taken up now. And if you put in google news search 'NHS crisis' for dates prior to 2020, you will see much worse stats being bandied about from previous winters than we see now.

Oh, and a complete ban on black and yellow tape.

 

[WelshBluebird]

basically let people be sensible

You honestly think that would happen?
A sizable minority of people in this country simply have no idea what "being sensible" is sadly.

We've seen that with how people have had to have "one last party" before pubs were closed back in March (and how they have done the same thing again when pubs have been closed in local areas more recently). We have also seen how some people have behaved whilst either queuing for entry or whilst in hospitality premises. We've seen people go on bloody pub crawls or racing trips whilst with symptoms and whilst waiting for a COVID test result.
My partner works in a pub and more than once a day her pub gets a group of people trying to chance it with the rules and then often becoming abusive towards staff when they are told that they rules actually do apply to them.

 

[tom1649]

Since when was Merseyside renamed Liverpool City Region? Looking at the area of restrictions they seem to be one and the same.

 

[kristiang85]

You honestly think that would happen?
A sizable minority of people in this country simple have no idea what "being sensible" is sadly.

We've seen that with how people have had to have "one last party" before pubs were closed back in March (and how they have done the same thing again when pubs have been closed in local areas more recently). We have also seen how some people have behaved whilst either queuing for entry or whilst in hospitality premises.
My partner works in a pub and more than once a day her pub gets a group of people trying to chance it with the rules and then becoming abusive towards staff when they are told that they rules actually do apply to them.

The vast majority of people are sensible when they are allowed to be adults. Obviously the media highlight the idiots, but it's not universal.

It's unacceptable that staff are copping abuse from people in pubs, but my point is that if the government didn't impose those rules on the pubs, it wouldn't be a problem. I think we are past the point now where these things are necessary. Stick sanitiser everywhere, limited the number of people who can come in to a sensible capacity, but otherwise rip up the stupid tape and let people live.

 

[WelshBluebird]

The vast majority of people are sensible when they are allowed to be adults. Obviously the media highlight the idiots, but it's not universal.

I am not saying it is universal - however to just simply think these people do not exist and have a large impact on how we live our lives is just naive.
They exist among us in larger numbers than what we probably are willing to admit!

It's unacceptable that staff are copping abuse from people in pubs, but my point is that if the government didn't impose those rules on the pubs, it wouldn't be a problem. I think we are past the point now where these things are necessary. Stick sanitiser everywhere, limited the number of people who can come in to a sensible capacity, but otherwise rip up the stupid tape and let people live.

Except some of the things that staff are getting abuse for is asking that people use sanitiser and for limiting the number of people to their current capacity.

 

[kristiang85]

I am not saying it is universal - however to just simply think these people do not exist and have a large impact on how we live our lives is just naive.
They exist among us in larger numbers than what we probably are willing to admit!

Except some of the things that staff are getting abuse for is asking that people use sanitiser and for limiting the number of people to their current capacity.

Yes these people exist, and they always have. Society keeps functioning. But I'm also firmly of the belief that creating idiotic and unnecessary rules, like the government is now, breeds more idiotic behaviour as people resent it. Take the rules away, then there are less flashpoints.

As I said, stick sanitiser everywhere - no need to ask people to use it before they sit down. Most will use it. And those that don't won't be argumentative. And many bars have always had people on the door limiting capacity, and yes there are always cretins who argue about it, but I don't see why that is a new problem related to COVID.

 

[ainsworth74]

I think problem is that to a large extent the bird has flown on just letting people get on with it. There probably is an alternate universe where the Government gave clear, consistent advice and guidance, where they implemented a legislative regime that enforced some elements of the restrictions but left the rest up to the judgement of individuals, where they punished high profile offenders rather than covering for them, where they got the public to buy into what needed to be done to keep everyone safe (as possible). All backed up by a highly effective test, track and trace system.

We however don't live in that universe and the Government seem to have taken public trust, set it on fire, poured petrol on the fire and then flung it off cliff into a burning building. Most people probably even still could be trusted to behave sensibly but the Government have now backed themselves into a corner where their only way out (that they believe is acceptable) is ever increasing restrictions because they don't have any tools left in the shed due to their own incompetence.

 

[Jamesrob637]

If Labour was in charge would we have been on a three-Kier lockdown?

I'll grab my coat.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Since when was Merseyside renamed Liverpool City Region? Looking at the area of restrictions they seem to be one and the same.

They aren't quite - LCR includes Halton (Runcorn and Widnes), Merseyside doesn't. It was the creation of the Mayoralty that I believe changed it.

 

[robbob700]

Since when was Merseyside renamed Liverpool City Region? Looking at the area of restrictions they seem to be one and the same.

Liverpool City Region also includes Halton unitary authority. Otherwise they cover the same area

 

[WelshBluebird]

Yes these people exist, and they always have. Society keeps functioning. But I'm also firmly of the belief that creating idiotic and unnecessary rules, like the government is now, breeds more idiotic behaviour as people resent it. Take the rules away, then there are less flashpoints.

As I said, stick sanitiser everywhere - no need to ask people to use it before they sit down. Most will use it. And those that don't won't be argumentative. And many bars have always had people on the door limiting capacity, and yes there are always cretins who argue about it, but I don't see why that is a new problem related to COVID.

Maybe you just have a more generous view of how the public generally behave than I do then!
Given I have worked in hospitality and in retail before, and have friends and a partner who still do - I have seen and heard a fair bit of how the general public acts when out in those premises. And my takeways from that have not been kind lets say!

In terms of idiots always existing and that being a problem before COVID - apart from that being the case surely supports my argument rather than yours (that we cannot trust people to be "sensible") - the problem is now that issue seems to be a lot more frequent.

Maybe you are right in that the increase in it is because of people resenting the restrictions because the government are being useless. I agree that is probably partially true, but why do they feel that arguing with often overworked and underpaid staff is going to change anything? Do they really think that arguing with staff about the 10pm close for example is going to end in any other way than them being removed from the premises?

 

[yorksrob]

I am not saying it is universal - however to just simply think these people do not exist and have a large impact on how we live our lives is just naive.
They exist among us in larger numbers than what we probably are willing to admit!



Except some of the things that staff are getting abuse for is asking that people use sanitiser and for limiting the number of people to their current capacity.

It's interesting - you will always get those people. However I think our current problems have more to do with the nature of the virus than people behaving unreasonably.

 

[jumble]

Just been reading it. There is a village called Billinge just up the road from me - one half comes under St Helens Council (Merseyside) while the other comes under Wigan Council (Greater Manchester), so I can imagine that's going to be a very bizarre situation for many residents.

CJ

Is this the place that I have heard of where the Manchester accent changes to Scouse depending on where they live?

 

[kristiang85]

Maybe you just have a more generous view of how the public generally behave than I do then!
Given I have worked in hospitality and in retail before, and have friends and a partner who still do - I have seen and heard a fair bit of how the general public acts when out in those premises. And my takeways from that have not been kind lets say!

In terms of idiots always existing and that being a problem before COVID - apart from that being the case surely supports my argument rather than yours (that we cannot trust people to be "sensible") - the problem is now that issue seems to be a lot more frequent.

Maybe you are right in that the increase in it is because of people resenting the restrictions because the government are being useless. I agree that is probably partially true, but why do they feel that arguing with often overworked and underpaid staff is going to change anything? Do they really think that arguing with staff about the 10pm close for example is going to end in any other way than them being removed from the premises?

On your last paragraph, I am in total agreement with you. There's nothing I despise more than people picking an argument with staff trying to reasonably do their job (particularly staff on planes); it doesn't help anybody at all. But sadly they've always existed. And its exacerbated by idiotic government decisions, like the 10pm closing that has no benefit to anybody.

I've worked in hospitality myself, and indeed the reason why I didn't work in it longer is because I don't really have the personality for dealing with the few who cause trouble. But it always was the few; still too many, but that's the one of the "joys" of customer facing jobs.

My argument is that more unnecessary regulations mean more problems in these situations, which really shouldn't be an issue. Your opinion is that these rules are needed to keep people in line; but to me it's just causing more problems and puts policing into the hands of people like bar staff who really shouldn't be doing it. And the police themselves have far more important things to do, so why have these rules in the first place? Going back to my original post, have big campaigns with guidelines and most people will get into good habits.

For those that don't, why wreck the country because of them?

Also we seem to have gone down the rabbithole of just talking about pubs; my post was in general a trusting of the public to follow guidance and get on with life.

 

[johntea]

Lancashire is moving to tier 3, with Johnson due to make a formal announcement shortly according to Sky and BBC News.

I hope the locktivists at the council are happy.

...but gyms can apparently stay open so out of the window goes the supposedly simple to understand tier system anyway!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is this the place that I have heard of where the Manchester accent changes to Scouse depending on where they live?

I suspect it's not like that, but rather like somewhere like Ormskirk where it's half and half (aarf'n'aarf? [1]) Scousers and Lancastrians, depending if they gravitate to Preston or Liverpool, but not on specifically where their house is.

[1] "Aaarfnaarf" is a common request in Liverpool chippies of having half-rice half-chips with your Chinese meal, FWIW. Try it down South and they look at you funny.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Oct 2020 ==

...but gyms can apparently stay open so out of the window goes the supposedly simple to understand tier system anyway!

The whole point was that there wasn't local variation...

 

[52290]

Is this the place that I have heard of where the Manchester accent changes to Scouse depending on where they live?

It's more likely to be a Wigan accent which is not at all like a Manchestor accent but not too different from a Chorley one which Sir Lindsay uses to address the nation.

 

[Peter Sarf]

It does seem to me that this three tier system is just the Government playing s real life video game. Put this area into Tier 2, then this into 3, when is this nonsense going to end. We've tried lockdown and restrictions, the virus doesn't go away. Original aim was to allow NHS to cope, that doesn't seem to be the aim now.

The virus is not going to go away. But for the majority of people it is not obvious it is there. They have no symptoms they do not comprehend the rising trends. They have already forgotten the state the NHS go into back in March. If this were World war two there would very be obvious signs that there were problems that meant stricter rules. The three tier system is never going to be very well accepted.

The only thing we can do is slow the progress of this virus through the population so that the NHS has a chance of dealing with the numbers needing treatment whilst still fulfilling all the other non-Covid-19 needs.

Winter is coming. We can expect the virus will do more harm in winter. So we need some sort of control. It is (or was) the three tier system. If it is no longer to be the three tier system then it will inevitably be something more expensive to society.

 

[185143]

I suspect it's not like that, but rather like somewhere like Ormskirk where it's half and half (aarf'n'aarf? [1]) Scousers and Lancastrians, depending if they gravitate to Preston or Liverpool, but not on specifically where their house is.

[1] "Aaarfnaarf" is a common request in Liverpool chippies of having half-rice half-chips with your Chinese meal, FWIW. Try it down South and they look at you funny.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Oct 2020 ==



The whole point was that there wasn't local variation...

You mean you can't get "Aaarnfnaarf" down South?? Well that's me staying up North forever!