Engineering work scheduled since Advance ticket bought

[trainophile]

I just checked to make sure my journey details from Southport to Hereford via Chester & Crewe on 25th Feb is still showing as it was when I booked it a few weeks ago, being an ultra-cheapie £9.50 Advance Single.

To my surprise I've found that Merseyrail appear to have arranged engineering work on two stretches of the Liverpool to Chester leg, both entailing bus replacements and consequently additional journey time. This was not evident when I booked my ticket so must be a recent development.

The thing is, to catch my booked trains from Chester to Crewe and Crewe to Hereford, I would now have to leave Southport before the start of the off-peak period. I was wondering whether this would throw up a problem at the Southport barriers, given the cheap fare is presumably based on off-peak travel. I was previously scheduled to leave Southport at 09.43 but it would now have to be 09.13. I believe off-peak starts at 09.30.

Also, if I decided not to travel because of the bus replacements and extra journey time, would I be able to get a refund? I booked through eastcoast.co.uk.

If I hadn't checked, and just headed for the station at the time originally stated, thus missing the booked VT and ATW trains, would I have been allowed to catch later ones in the circs?

 

[FGWman]

If you hold an Advance ticket the peak /off peak time is irrelevant. You travel at the times on you ticket. If you want to be sure carry a copy of you itinery to show to any RPI.

 

[ChrisTheRef]

I haven't read up on this, so I may be wrong, but....

I think if your departure time is most important (ie: you've come from a flight which touched down at 0900, so you HAVE to travel after 0900), you're allowed to arrive later, just catching the next connection as/where you can.
I think if your arrival time is more important (ie: catching a flight and you have to be AT the airport by 1200), there's nothing to stop you leaving 2 hours earlier than booked in order to arrive on time.

Check with someone else first though.

 

[Max]

You travel at the times on you ticket.

Not exactly possible if the trains that the OP was meant to be catching are cancelled though! I'm fairly sure you can't be forced to leave earlier than your original departure time, and would be allowed on other services to complete your journey.

 

[yorkie]

given the cheap fare is presumably based on off-peak travel.

Advance fares are based on specifying the time of travel in advance, it is up to TOCs to decide if they wish to make them available at "peak" times or not.

I have a £15 ticket for the 0800 York-London one day soon, but an Off Peak ticket would not be valid on it, but the validity of Off Peak tickets is irrelevant when considering the validity of an Advance ticket. What matters is the validity of the ticket(s) held (not any other ticket).

I was previously scheduled to leave Southport at 09.43 but it would now have to be 09.13. I believe off-peak starts at 09.30.

This is not an Off Peak ticket, and there is no such thing as Off Peak time (except in the context of a specific ticket validity restriction)

Also, if I decided not to travel because of the bus replacements and extra journey time, would I be able to get a refund? I booked through eastcoast.co.uk.

Quite possibly, but the system won't let you do it online (unles you fancy paying the £10 admin fee (you can post East Coast the 50p )

If I hadn't checked, and just headed for the station at the time originally stated, thus missing the booked VT and ATW trains, would I have been allowed to catch later ones in the circs?

Of course.

Part of the rules for Advance tickets includes this, you could say 'easement':-

b) If delays occur while
travelling, they will be
allowed to take the next
available train(s) to complete
their journey.

Arguably any re-timing of trains since the time that you booked your ticket would constitute a "delay". Bring your original order confirmation as evidence of the contract.

 

[wintonian]

Would the OP not be theoretically 'booked' onto the service masquerading as the replacement service be it bus or train?

 

[yorkie]

Would the OP not be theoretically 'booked' onto the service masquerading as the replacement service be it bus or train?

I'm not sure what the term is (it used to say "suggested service" on the old airline-style tickets, but I like to avoid the term "booked" unless there is a reservation) but the connecting rail / rail replacement services at the time of the original booking were different to what they are now. If someone booked now, they'd be given the revised rail replacement service.

There is no obligation for the customer to depart their origin station (in this case Southport) earlier than the suggested time on the travel itinerary which was supplied at the time of booking. Providing the customer is at Southport at that time the customer has complied with the terms of the ticket, and any delay after that point is the TOC's problem.

 

[wibble]

The thing is, to catch my booked trains from Chester to Crewe and Crewe to Hereford, I would now have to leave Southport before the start of the off-peak period. I was wondering whether this would throw up a problem at the Southport barriers, given the cheap fare is presumably based on off-peak travel.

No, they won't cause any problems. The magentic strip on a ticket doesn't contain that much detail. The gates are only really interested in your ticket's origin, destination, date and ticket type and routeing.

 

[Going South]

It is a shame that TOCs don't email those with booked itineraries to warn them of the change. I recently nearly missed a Sunday evening train from Paddington to Bath because it had been brought forward from 2103 to 2100. It was advertised on the departure boards as 2100 then taken off the departure boards at 2058. I know 3 minutes isn't much difference, but having nipped to Sainsbury's to pick up some dinner without realising the change, I then went to the concourse at 2057 and only saw the platform number displayed for about 10 seconds before it was taken down.
It really can't be that difficult to contact those with Advance tickets and reservations who booked online?

 

[wibble]

It is a shame that TOCs don't email those with booked itineraries to warn them of the change. I recently nearly missed a Sunday evening train from Paddington to Bath because it had been brought forward from 2103 to 2100. It was advertised on the departure boards as 2100 then taken off the departure boards at 2058. I know 3 minutes isn't much difference, but having nipped to Sainsbury's to pick up some dinner without realising the change, I then went to the concourse at 2057 and only saw the platform number displayed for about 10 seconds before it was taken down.
It really can't be that difficult to contact those with Advance tickets and reservations who booked online?

It wouldn'r be feasible given the number of people that could not be contacted, e.g. those who've bought over the phone, at the station or are travelling on walk-up fares.

 

[trainophile]

Thanks everyone. Just to clarify (although I'm sure those familiar with such things know this) my booked (i.e. timed) trains are for the latter part of my journey. The departure from Southport is simply timed to fit in with the relevant connections. In the normal way I could depart Southport a couple of hours before the train advised on booking - at least I assume I can, and indeed have done so in order to allow extra connection time at Chester, given Merseyrail trains' lack of toilet facilities! This is when my journey time is mid-morning or later, so there is no effect on peak/non-peak service differences.

It's just that on this occasion the necessary departure time has been brought forward to what I always believed to be peak time. I'm now happy with Wibble's reply that this would not bother Merseyrail, but if I did depart on my originally suggested train, i.e. the 09.43, I would be an hour late to my destination as I'd have to wait for the next hourly service from Crewe. If the same thing occurred when I was going direct from Chester to Hereford I would be two hours late as it is a two-hourly service.

This is not an Off Peak ticket, and there is no such thing as Off Peak time.

Not sure what is meant by this as there most certainly is 'peak' and 'off peak' times on Merseyrail, as I was reminded the other day when purchasing a Day Saver! I'd be surprised if they would offer an exceptionally cheap journey option which overlaps with 'commuter time'.

Anyway I have now booked a totally different ticket to go back via Manchester Piccadilly two days later (for various reasons)! I'll put the £9.50 down to experience.

It's a good lesson about always checking pre-booked journeys right up to day of departure, just in case.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Three possibilities spring to mind.

1) You could travel earlier to make your connection as Merseyrail do not offer reservations on their services.

2) If you have a print out of the original itinerary you can start out at the same time and should be able to travel on later services than the booked trains as you have 'been delayed whilst travelling'.

3) If you can contact the issuer of the tickets, they might offer a full refund as they cannot keep to the contract.

 

[wibble]

3) If you can contact the issuer of the tickets, they might offer a full refund as they cannot keep to the contract.

The contract is to supply a journey between the origin and destination on the ticket, whether that be by train, replacement bus service or taxi.

 

[MichaelAMW]

Not sure what is meant by this as there most certainly is 'peak' and 'off peak' times on Merseyrail, as I was reminded the other day when purchasing a Day Saver! I'd be surprised if they would offer an exceptionally cheap journey option which overlaps with 'commuter time'.

This is a common error/misunderstanding that poor old Yorkie has had to correct many times before. The point is that we have ticket restrictions, not train restrictions. You look up a validity code for a ticket and it tells you when you can travel; there is no corresponding list for the trains themselves, i.e there is no train that is specifically 'peak' or 'off-peak'. While it's true that 9.00/9.30 often represents when 'off-peak' starts for relatively local travel, you will find that on exactly the same train there will be off-peak tickets to other places that become valid at a range of other times.

An off-peak return from Southport to Hereford is valid at any time, to Nottingham only after 09.00, to Exeter after 05.00, to Glasgow after 04.15; an off-peak day return to Manchester after 09.30, to Buxton after 08.30. And then you have 'Arrive after' restrictions, e.g. an off-peak return to London is valid to arrive after 09.26, which doesn't tie you to any specific time from Southport.

It might be an interesting exercise to see if you can find *any* train on which absolutely no off-peak ticket is available.

 

[Deerfold]

What you do tend to find in PTE areas is that all local tickets have a common off-peak validity.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The contract is to supply a journey between the origin and destination on the ticket, whether that be by train, replacement bus service or taxi.

On an advance fare, the contract is for specific trains at the specified times, the TOC can no longer keep to this arrangement. If the passenger travels and is delayed sufficiantly, as seems certain in this case, they will be entitled to money back anyway. It may be in the interests of the TOC to alter or cancel the agreement.

 

[button_boxer]

This is a common error/misunderstanding that poor old Yorkie has had to correct many times before. The point is that we have ticket restrictions, not train restrictions. You look up a validity code for a ticket and it tells you when you can travel; there is no corresponding list for the trains themselves, i.e there is no train that is specifically 'peak' or 'off-peak'. While it's true that 9.00/9.30 often represents when 'off-peak' starts for relatively local travel, you will find that on exactly the same train there will be off-peak tickets to other places that become valid at a range of other times.

An off-peak return from Southport to Hereford is valid at any time, to Nottingham only after 09.00, to Exeter after 05.00, to Glasgow after 04.15; an off-peak day return to Manchester after 09.30, to Buxton after 08.30. And then you have 'Arrive after' restrictions, e.g. an off-peak return to London is valid to arrive after 09.26, which doesn't tie you to any specific time from Southport.

It might be an interesting exercise to see if you can find *any* train on which absolutely no off-peak ticket is available.

This is a fantastic explanation and if this forum had an FAQ list I would definitely nominate this post for inclusion.

 

[IainH]

I had a tussle with FGW a while back on a similar issue (my booked train became a bus about 1 week before travel). After a snotty reply from FGW, I took it up with Passenger Focus who wrestled a refund (cash) out of them.

It hung on the terms of the NRCOC:-

26(a) if the train you intended to use is cancelled, delayed or your reservation will not
be honoured, you decide not to travel and at that time you return the unused
ticket to any ticket office, the Train Company responsible for that ticket office will,
if it is in a position to do so, give you an immediate full refund as shown in
Condition 27.

I argued that the train was cancelled (as it was now a bus) and could only be delayed (as it was a bus) and my reservation could not be honoured (as it was a bus). PF accepted that and FGW reluctantly coughed up, although PF did say it was an unusual complaint. This refund rule is usually used on the day when things go pear shaped but there is nothing in it to say if you are told (or find out) about a bustitution in advance, you can't invoke it.

 

[Going South]

It wouldn'r be feasible given the number of people that could not be contacted, e.g. those who've bought over the phone, at the station or are travelling on walk-up fares.

So, because they can't contact everybody, they shouldn't contact anybody? :roll:
You're right that it wouldn't be feasible to contact those people, but is that a good reason not to make the (not very huge) effort to contact those they can contact easily?

 

[yorkie]

Not sure what is meant by this as there most certainly is 'peak' and 'off peak' times on Merseyrail,

Merseyrail can ONLY decide on peak restrictions for tickets that are priced by them. e.g. you can purchase an Off Peak ticket from Southport to Taunton and depart Southport at 0500.

as I was reminded the other day when purchasing a Day Saver!

That's up to Merseyrail Off Peak Day saver, so they can set the rules for that product as it's 'their' product.

I'd be surprised if they would offer an exceptionally cheap journey option which overlaps with 'commuter time'.

I'm on some trains at 'commuter time' next week on very cheap tickets

Anyway I have now booked a totally different ticket to go back via Manchester Piccadilly two days later (for various reasons)! I'll put the £9.50 down to experience.

If you choose not to travel due to the retimed trains, you should be entitled to a refund.

It's a good lesson about always checking pre-booked journeys right up to day of departure, just in case.

Well, yes, it's always a risk with AP tickets if your plans change. However I think if the TOCs plans change then they should offer a refund and I am sure they will.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It might be an interesting exercise to see if you can find *any* train on which absolutely no off-peak ticket is available.

Good post.

The only ones I can think of are when you are on a train that is due into a London Terminal before about 9am and has not called at ANY station within the 'Network area' (ie, has been non-stop from at least Ipswich, Peterborough, Wellingborough, Rugby, etc...) for the portion of journey between the last calling point prior to London and London itself.

 

[sheff1]

It is a shame that TOCs don't email those with booked itineraries to warn them of the change.It really can't be that difficult to contact those with Advance tickets and reservations who booked online?

I had this discussion with Virgin when they ran Cross Country and my booked train from Bristol Parkway was retimed to depart earlier after I had purchased the ticket. I pointed out that if my Virgin flight time was altered they sent me an email.

The explanation given was that passengers were linked to a specific flight within the airline booking system by name and booking reference, but the same linkage was not made in the train booking system.

 

[YorkshireBear]

surely you dont get an advance time on the merseyrail system as they dont take reservations? so getting on at 9:13 shouldnt be a problem?

is it worth just ringing merseyrail or goign and speaking to them at a station.

 

[wibble]

On an advance fare, the contract is for specific trains at the specified times, the TOC can no longer keep to this arrangement. If the passenger travels and is delayed sufficiantly, as seems certain in this case, they will be entitled to money back anyway. It may be in the interests of the TOC to alter or cancel the agreement.

So the original poster should sue for breach of contract...?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It might be an interesting exercise to see if you can find *any* train on which absolutely no off-peak ticket is available.

There are no off peak tickets offered for journeys wholly on the Island Line.

 

[button_boxer]

There are no off peak tickets offered for journeys wholly on the Island Line.

But presumably there are still off peak tickets originating off the island that are valid on those trains, which was the point of the question.

 

[MichaelAMW]

Good post.

The only ones I can think of are when you are on a train that is due into a London Terminal before about 9am and has not called at ANY station within the 'Network area' (ie, has been non-stop from at least Ipswich, Peterborough, Wellingborough, Rugby, etc...) for the portion of journey between the last calling point prior to London and London itself.

Thank you! Yes, I think you're right... The ticket that used to beat those restrictions was the London - Glasgow off-peak return/Saver, which used to be unrestricted, but that doesn't work any more. There is also, in theory, the rule that says a cross-London ticket where neither origin nor destination is in the Network Area is only restricted on the part between origin and London, but that seems to be becoming less true. E.g. Westbury to Glasgow seems to be the opposite, i.e. unrestricted into Paddington but then restricted on the West Coast route. Similar thing for Exeter to Nottingham and even Penzance to Wellingborough.

That last one is rather odd as it's an EMT fare, in spite of 80% of the journey actually being on the FGW main line. It would seem that the via London rule, which meant you didn't get hammered with two lots of restrictions, is more or less gone and there is no apparent logic to who sets the fare for a cross-London journey. It seems that, somehow, EMT have managed to get "their" restriction on a ticket that ought to be governed by restrictions into and out of Paddington.

 

[trainophile]

Thank you Yorkie for explaining about peak tickets, I've learnt something there.

I made the same journey as in the OP today (no bus replacements involved), and as a test I went 15 minutes earlier, so passed through the Southport barriers at about 9.20. The automated barrier spat my ticket back out and didn't open, but when it was checked by a staff member I was let through with no question. Might have been because barriers aren't always very receptive to Advance tickets.

Annoyed about something else now! The alternative SOP to HFD via Manchester Piccadilly tickets that I booked for Sunday 27th (two tickets as travelling with husband), when I was booking them on Tuesday the system wouldn't let me buy two for the 13.05 departure although I could have had one (@ £13). I therefore booked the 14.05 for both of us, which was £16 each. Today I find that I could get two £13 13.05 tickets if I wanted. The earlier time would have suited us better, and we'd have saved £6. Wonder why that happened.

 

[John @ home]

when I was booking them on Tuesday the system wouldn't let me buy two for the 13.05 departure although I could have had one (@ £13). I therefore booked the 14.05 for both of us, which was £16 each. Today I find that I could get two £13 13.05 tickets if I wanted. The earlier time would have suited us better, and we'd have saved £6. Wonder why that happened.

I think what happened is that all but one £13 tickets were temporarily reserved for someone else. An example may make things clearer.

Earlier this evening I bought 2 pairs of Advance tickets from East Coast. I completed the order for my first journey, Edinburgh to Aberdeen, and clicked Book Another Journey and went on to order for my second journey, Aberdeen to Leeds. While booking the second journey, the details of my first order appeared on screen with the comment Reserved until 21:37. At that point no-one else could book these tickets.

East Coast allow you 2 hours to finish choosing your tickets and pay for the booking. I have heard that some vendors may allow only one hour.

My suggestion is that on Tuesday all but one £13 tickets had been reserved by someone else but that person did not go on to complete the purchase and the reservation expired, making them available again.

 

[yorkie]

There is also, in theory, the rule that says a cross-London ticket where neither origin nor destination is in the Network Area is only restricted on the part between origin and London,...

I wasn't aware of that!

I am only aware of the easement referring to one of the stations being inside the Network area, and the other being outside it.

Sounds interesting, is this an old BR rule? If anyone can find any info on this I would be interested.

Annoyed about something else now! The alternative SOP to HFD via Manchester Piccadilly

From where? By the way, I am unsure if the code 'SOP' is a valid ticket code or not, I've not heard of it, but there are loads of obscure codes (the main ones are SOR, SDR, SVR, CDR, SSR, OPR etc). Super Off Peak Returns are either OPR or SSR. As far as I know, all walk-on fares end in either R (for return) or S (for single) so if there was a SOP it would probably be an Advance.

 

[island]

As far as I know, all walk-on fares end in either R (for return) or S (for single) so if there was a SOP it would probably be an Advance.

Let's disabuse you of that notion then with CBA (Super Off-Peak DR) No idea what the code stood for before simplification...

 

[hairyhandedfool]

SOP is Southport, HFD is Hereford.