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Engine drivers from the 60s - anyone you know?

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stuving

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Harry Cross apparently came from Burrowbridge, which is halfway along the road between Taunton and Glastonbury. Ending up at a Midland shed in Bristol, did he originally start on the Somerset & Dorset?
Nothing so simple! His family had moved to Bristol by 1911, though he was probably still at school somewhere else. He was called up in 1918, and sent to France in August - but only for a month. He was back in 1919 (more likely in Germany garrisoning the Rhineland) and demobbed in early 1920.

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More importantly, Harry's occupation when he enlisted was labourer - and no employer mentioned - unlikely for any railway job.
 
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WesternLancer

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Hi Nobby,
Great to have a person from the photos on the forum.
This may sound a silly question, when you say bag catchers, do you mean the devices for transferring Royal Mail bags without dropping speed?
I was going to send scans of the photos to Patrick O'Brien but does he already have them?
Cheers
BTW Was Gloster on the money with Foxy being Francis?
Just to pick up on this. Yes you are correct it’s the mail pick up gear that collects the bags from the line side without the train stopping. As per the famous film Night Mail. System in use until c1970 in uk iirc. The pick up gear needs to be on the correct side so the train has to be the ‘right way round’ if that makes sense.
 

EKrabappel

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Just to pick up on this. Yes you are correct it’s the mail pick up gear that collects the bags from the line side without the train stopping. As per the famous film Night Mail. System in use until c1970 in uk iirc. The pick up gear needs to be on the correct side so the train has to be the ‘right way round’ if that makes sense.
I did see an example of the mail pick up working on the great series 'How The Railways Transformed Britain'. I heard somewhere that some unfortunate guards or firemen were almost (or were) decapitated by the gear when they stuck their head out of the cabin at the wrong time during night travels. Was that true or an urban myth?
 

WesternLancer

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I did see an example of the mail pick up working on the great series 'How The Railways Transformed Britain'. I heard somewhere that some unfortunate guards or firemen were almost (or were) decapitated by the gear when they stuck their head out of the cabin at the wrong time during night travels. Was that true or an urban myth?
I’ve never heard that which isn’t to say it never happened.
 

Taunton

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Just to pick up on this. Yes you are correct it’s the mail pick up gear that collects the bags from the line side without the train stopping. As per the famous film Night Mail. System in use until c1970 in uk iirc. The pick up gear needs to be on the correct side so the train has to be the ‘right way round’ if that makes sense.
Surprising it needed turning on the triangle, as it was common to marshal two postal vehicles together oriented opposite ways, so there was the apparatus on the cess side whichever direction it was running. One vehicle did the pickup, the other used for sorting. It was unpopular to use the vehicle with active nets on that trip for sorting letters, due to the huge draft that blew through when the doors to the apparatus were opened.
 

WesternLancer

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Surprising it needed turning on the triangle, as it was common to marshal two postal vehicles together oriented opposite ways, so there was the apparatus on the cess side whichever direction it was running. One vehicle did the pickup, the other used for sorting. It was unpopular to use the vehicle with active nets on that trip for sorting letters, due to the huge draft that blew through when the doors to the apparatus were opened.
Thanks. Does that arrangement (sounds logical) ensure the pick up gear faces the correct direction always? Ie back of the net at the rear.
 

Big Jumby 74

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One for Nobby. Hi there, and thanks for helping to identify the faces in the original four photos. However, I appreciate you say they were all taken on Bath Road depot (Bristol), but (and forgive me throwing a question mark at that?) the building outside the Hymek's cab side window, in all four photos, is still saying Bath Green Park station to me, particularly the picture of Len Stone where the roof line can be seen in near full view. This clearly matches the bonded store at Bath Green Park.
I have trawled through a number of pictures/books of Bristol Bath Road depot, including views from up being the rear of the depot, and can not see any such building within depot limits?

Sorry to be a doubting Thomas and all......

PS: attached a photo I took of same building at Bath GP station in January 1980. Top left (with White Mini prominent) shows the platform side to good effect, albeit the windows were boarded up by then. However any of the various books relating to the S & D will show a number of images with the windows intact, which are seen to be identical to those in the four portrait photos - if it wasn't for copyright issues I would post one such here.
 

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Nobby Clark

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One for Nobby. Hi there, and thanks for helping to identify the faces in the original four photos. However, I appreciate you say they were all taken on Bath Road depot (Bristol), but (and forgive me throwing a question mark at that?) the building outside the Hymek's cab side window, in all four photos, is still saying Bath Green Park station to me, particularly the picture of Len Stone where the roof line can be seen in near full view. This clearly matches the bonded store at Bath Green Park.
I have trawled through a number of pictures/books of Bristol Bath Road depot, including views from up being the rear of the depot, and can not see any such building within depot limits?

Sorry to be a doubting Thomas and all......

PS: attached a photo I took of same building at Bath GP station in January 1980. Top left (with White Mini prominent) shows the platform side to good effect, albeit the windows were boarded up by then. However any of the various books relating to the S & D will show a number of images with the windows intact, which are seen to be identical to those in the four portrait photos - if it wasn't for copyright issues I would post one such here.
Yes i do stand corrected it certainly is Bath Green Park i inadvertently stated Bath Road SORRY By the appearance of me bottom right i was very young there and would think i had just been moved into what was called the Tanky Link which worked Passenger Service Temple Meads to B.G.Park and Temple Meads to Portishead Single Line which was quite frightening along side the River Avon and under the small Tunnels under the Suspension Bridge
 

Big Jumby 74

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Yes i do stand corrected it certainly is Bath Green Park i inadvertently stated Bath Road SORRY By the appearance of me bottom right i was very young there and would think i had just been moved into what was called the Tanky Link which worked Passenger Service Temple Meads to B.G.Park and Temple Meads to Portishead Single Line which was quite frightening along side the River Avon and under the small Tunnels under the Suspension Bridge
Hello Nobby. Thank you for your response. I have sent you a PM. For the wider audience I am now thinking which Hymek is pictured in the OP's four photos. There was a video clip posted up thread showing what was said to be the last passenger run between Bristol TM and Bath GP and return? If I saw that correctly, that turn was worked by D7000 no less, although I think there were still quite a few '35's in service at that time, and as I mentioned somewhere up thread there were perhaps North of half a dozen that were noted (by enthusiasts presumably?) running in to Bath from the Mangotsfield direction in those last few years.

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ADDITIONAL NOTE/LATE ADD-ON:

Another one for Nobby: the date of the four pics taken in the Hymek cab: could this have been 10th September 1964? There is evidence elsewhere of a Hymek (two tone green livery) sitting in the southern most centre road at Bath Green Park station, adjacent to the bonded store building as ref above. Hope this might help?
 
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6Gman

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I did see an example of the mail pick up working on the great series 'How The Railways Transformed Britain'. I heard somewhere that some unfortunate guards or firemen were almost (or were) decapitated by the gear when they stuck their head out of the cabin at the wrong time during night travels. Was that true or an urban myth?
Whether a decapitation ever happened I don't know, but there was certainly a risk of serious injury. A. Walnutt-Read in the Xpress Publishing book Plymouth-Penzance "District Controller's View" states:

"The lineside apparatus is operated by the Post Office whose staff cannot be guaranteed to distinguish the TPO [Travelling Post Office] from any other service in the darkness. They are aware that the arm has to be loaded and swung out for 20.38 with the obvious danger that if another train is running in the path of the TPO some unfortunate footplateman is likely to have his head knocked off. Consequently ... instructions ... to ensure the loaded arm is swung into position just before the mail is due, irrespective of whether it is running to time or not."

One would hope that local footplate crews would be aware of when and where arms would be deployed and be careful, but ... running out of course, perhaps not hugely familiar with the route, asked to check a signal ...
 

Gloster

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I am fairly sure that I saw a film about the last apparatus at Penrith and it was mentioned that the little hut there had a ‘phone connected to the signal box so that the postmen could check the running of the postal before swinging the bags out. I would presume that this would have become a fairly standard arrangement, although before ‘phones were easily available it might have been guess work, or possibly the the postal would have had a distinctive headlamp arrangement and the postmen would have to work fast once it hove into view.
 

Taunton

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My understanding was that the lineside apparatus armed with mailbags was clear of the loading gauge. It was the net on the TPO carriage which was swung out of gauge to do the pick up.

As replicated on the Hornby model version, those of us who had one, long ago :) . Shown here:

 

Rescars

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My understanding was that the lineside apparatus armed with mailbags was clear of the loading gauge. It was the net on the TPO carriage which was swung out of gauge to do the pick up.

As replicated on the Hornby model version, those of us who had one, long ago :) . Shown here:

I think "Night Mail" has some footage of the apparatus in action.
 

Nobby Clark

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Yes i do stand corrected it certainly is Bath Green Park i inadvertently stated Bath Road SORRY By the appearance of me bottom right i was very young there and would think i had just been moved into what was called the Tanky Link which worked Passenger Service Temple Meads to B.G.Park and Temple Meads to Portishead Single Line which was quite frightening along side the River Avon and under the small Tunnels under the Suspension Bridge
Bath Green Park Hymeck
 

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Big Jumby 74

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Bath Green Park Hymeck
Hi Nobby. Excellent images, always good to see hitherto unknown pictures. D7048 is sitting at the dummy controlling the exit from The Long Siding, just the spot where I believe the original portraits were taken in the (other end) cab. Not saying D7048 is the loco concerned with those original pics of course, as I suspect, aside from the mix of colour and black/white photos, the Long siding, being the least used of the roads within station limits in those last years, was just a convenient place for locos on long turn rounds to sit between workings perhaps?
Always liked the Hymeks, even though I never had any professional dealings with them. Some diesel designs were just 'spot on' aesthetically wise I thought, they being one such. 'Rose tinted' and all that you may perhaps say, having had dealings with same yourself?
Thanks again for sharing images.
 

EKrabappel

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I wonder if the story of decapitation from the mail apparatus arose from this incident and the story got mis-told over time:
dec.jpg
And another big thanks to Nobby and all the other posters who have made this thread so great. Picking up some of the jargon, can someone explain what a 'dummy' is? From what I can gather it is related to the signal but not sure of the details. I think it's also referred to as Dodd, Dolly, or Tommy Dodd but I may be getting my jargon mixed up. Thanks
 

Gloster

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I wonder if the story of decapitation from the mail apparatus arose from this incident and the story got mis-told over time:
View attachment 168102
And another big thanks to Nobby and all the other posters who have made this thread so great. Picking up some of the jargon, can someone explain what a 'dummy' is? From what I can gather it is related to the signal but not sure of the details. I think it's also referred to as Dodd, Dolly, or Tommy Dodd but I may be getting my jargon mixed up. Thanks

The newspaper cutting refers to a member of Post Office staff who attached the bags to the lineside apparatus for the train to collect or collected the bags once the train had had ‘ejected’ them. He was not a member of the on-train staff. This sort of incident was by no means uncommon to people working at night on their own with only minimal lighting: a missed footing, a moment’s faintness, a momentary loss of concentration, a misjudgement of where he was, etc.

Dummy, Dolly, Tommy Dodd and similar names are all different nicknames for ground signals. These are the the small signals (mostly) down at track level that are used to control shunting moves, not full scale running ones. The nicknames varied in different areas and there were no doubt others.
 

EKrabappel

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The newspaper cutting refers to a member of Post Office staff who attached the bags to the lineside apparatus for the train to collect or collected the bags once the train had had ‘ejected’ them. He was not a member of the on-train staff. This sort of incident was by no means uncommon to people working at night on their own with only minimal lighting: a missed footing, a moment’s faintness, a momentary loss of concentration, a misjudgement of where he was, etc.

Yes, but he did work for the mail and was found near the decapitated near the apparatus. I just wonder if the facts got mixed up over time. It's happened before. I had an ancestor who had brain damage from being kicked in the head by a horse. Family story was that he was protecting his younger sister. The truth turned out that he was taking a short cut among the horses tied up outside the town hall and nothing to do with chivalrous acts.

Thanks the info re dummy. Looked it up. I think I've seen them before but not really paid much attention. I assume early dummies where mechanical rather than lights?
 

Rescars

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Pre-power signalling, most dummies were mechanically operated small discs. Earlier still, dummies came in a variety of forms, including miniature semaphore, discs which rotated on a vertical axis, etc. The pattern used depended on the preferences of the company concerned, or their signalling suppliers.
 

Gloster

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Yes, but he did work for the mail and was found near the decapitated near the apparatus. I just wonder if the facts got mixed up over time. It's happened before. I had an ancestor who had brain damage from being kicked in the head by a horse. Family story was that he was protecting his younger sister. The truth turned out that he was taking a short cut among the horses tied up outside the town hall and nothing to do with chivalrous acts.

Thanks the info re dummy. Looked it up. I think I've seen them before but not really paid much attention. I assume early dummies where mechanical rather than lights?

I doubt if this incident was the origin of the story of someone being decapitated, even if it might have grown locally. More likely that in the hundred and five years of mail bags being collected and dropped using lineside apparatus it happened somewhere and that is the story that spread; there could well have been more than one such incident. There are also stories of postal sorters dying after hitting their heads on bridges: the majority of postal trains ran at night and in the dark countryside it was easy to misjudge where the train was and lean out at the wrong moment. A number of firemen died because they were still up on the tender moving coal when the loco went under a bridge…and they were in a better position to know where they were.
 

Taunton

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i had just been moved into what was called the Tanky Link which worked Passenger Service Temple Meads to B.G.Park and Temple Meads to Portishead Single Line which was quite frightening along side the River Avon and under the small Tunnels under the Suspension Bridge
Separate topic but did this work include the two 41xx locos, 4103 and 4131, which were daily regulars on the coal trains up the Radstock line for years well into the 1960s - used to visit house which backed onto the line, two daily services by this pair passed each weekday at about 0800 and 0830, returning later. Heading up towards Whitchurch in the morning always heard them coming - must have been quite a climb. Returning later with full loads from the collieries, ran entirely by gravity, and noiseless.
 
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