Enforcement of illegal operators

[Poiuytre]

I was scrolling through a local Facebook group earlier, and I came across a post from a lady who had hired a minibus for a two way journey to an airport for 14 people. The 'operator' had completed the outbound journey, but didn't turn up for the return journey a few days later. She named the operator, so I looked them up on DVSA operator search. I searched long and hard for both Standard and Restricted licences, but there were no results - therefore I have a hunch that the operator is illegally running without a licence.

This got me thinking, these days how many operators are still getting away with this sort of thing? With all the high-tech methods that DVSA now employ how do certain operators seem to still appear to (quite openly in some cases) trade illegally. Does anyone have any experience of reporting such operators to DVSA, and did DVSA take action.

I'm not going to state any Company Names etc. Because I'm sure that would be against group rules.

 

[K4016td]

It might be the case he isn't registered and does it only as self -employed just like any other minicab driver would do, although he clearly has a vehicle than can carry more than 9 people. Technically if it is cash in hand business who would know if he has all suitable licences. I doubt many passengers are aware of all neccesary docs and just want to get from A to B. In case of any police check he can always claim he's not driving them for profit, on a voluntary basis - as according to the rules on the below website.

Driving a minibus

Find out if you can drive a minibus and what licence you need - when you need to have a PCV D1 category licence

www.gov.uk

 

[Poiuytre]

It might be the case he isn't registered and does it only as self -employed just like any other minicab driver would do, although he clearly has a vehicle than can carry more than 9 people. Technically if it is cash in hand business who would know if he has all suitable licences. I doubt many passengers are aware of all neccesary docs and just want to get from A to B. In case of any police check he can always claim he's not driving them for profit, on a voluntary basis - as according to the rules on the below website.

Driving a minibus

Find out if you can drive a minibus and what licence you need - when you need to have a PCV D1 category licence

www.gov.uk

Yes indeed, and this is the problem isn't it. Although I would of thought that sooner or later they'd get done. After all, surely a competitor would report them. If I was an operator I certainly wouldn't be very happy if someone (with potentially no Financial Standing, Transport Manager, routine maintenance etc) was undercutting me.

 

[Spsf3232]

Take a look around Scotland in the middle of summer and the 9 to 15 seat minibuses in use is astronomical and all seem to be rented under the "self drive" excuse but everyone knows they are operating as a business

 

[Roger1973]

It's possible that the trading name doesn't match the same name on the operator licence - this can be quite legitimate if it's a sole trader, e.g. the licence is in the name of Mr Joe Bloggs, but the trading name is JB Travel (this is a fictional example - apologies if there really is such a company!)

Or with some limited companies, the name doesn't match the trading name - the well established and respectable Sleafordian Coaches in Lincolnshire, the legal entity is the Sleaford Taxi Company Ltd.

Although the operator search is supposed to include legal entity and trading name as potential searches.

Although yes, there are unlicensed operators out there, and the resources that DVSA (or whatever it's called this week) to carry out proactive investigations is probably quite limited. There was an article on the subject in 'Route One' magazine a month or so back.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Soon after de-regulation, when I was working in a railway office away from London, someone started to run a Leyland National on what looked like a town bus service from near the station. The bus had an overall ad. for a town the other side of London, and the legal lettering was for one of the London Country operators, again the other side of London. It displayed neither tax disc nor operators licence, and the driver also didn't display a badge.
I decided to phone the Traffic Commissioners. After a few times of my call being answered (before I had set out my question) with 'we're too busy we'll call you back" and not doing so I was more persistent and I discovered that the view of the Traffic Commissioner's office was a follows;
'We're too busy' and 'Why are you complaining?' suggesting that they regarded the matter as trivial. When I pressed them about the offence of not displaying a tax disc, they suggested that I asked the ( tattoo'd and aggressive-looking) driver.
My response was the vehicle in that situation was likely to be un-insured and passengers would be unaware of this which might be a problem in an accident, and I also asked for confirmation that it was legal to using a motor vehicle without a tax disc , if the driver had an excuse (as they implied) and they seemed to agree with that premise. When I asked them to put that in writing (could be useful...), of course they went quiet.

So rather a long rant to say that the Traffic Commissioners, in my experience, have absolutely no interest in illegal PSV operation and you are wasting your time contacting them.

 

[ChrisPJ]

So rather a long rant to say that the Traffic Commissioners, in my experience, have absolutely no interest in illegal PSV operation and you are wasting your time contacting them.

If that was upwards of 35 years ago then I don’t think you can possibly tar the Traffic Commissioners of today with the same brush.

 

[Roger1973]

It does happen - there is a case reported in Route One magazine, involving an unlicensed full size coach, which ended up being impounded.

Although reported cases seem to be a rarity - if someone managed to stay completely under the radar, advertising informally, it's potentially going to be hard to catch them, especially at the 12 / 16 seater end of the market.

I used occasionally to be involved (as a local authority transport officer) in spot checks involving Police and DVSA (or whatever it was called then) on buses and coaches doing school transport, which occasionally had interesting outcomes, but seriously dodgy operators are unlikely to get in to the realms of school contract operation.

Do the authorities still occasionally just turn up at motorway service stations and do spot checks?

 

[Flange Squeal]

Do the authorities still occasionally just turn up at motorway service stations and do spot checks?

I’ve had vehicles I’ve been driving checked in coach parks (Windsor and Alton Towers spring to mind) before, but primarily it’s been outside schools after dropping the kids off.

 

[WibbleWobble]

I’ve had vehicles I’ve been driving checked in coach parks (Windsor and Alton Towers spring to mind) before, but primarily it’s been outside schools after dropping the kids off.

I recall that happening outside the school I attended. At least it was at dropping off time, and not pick-up! Let's say it was a talking point that got a lot of attention from us lot watching through the windows.

 

[Merle Haggard]

If that was upwards of 35 years ago then I don’t think you can possibly tar the Traffic Commissioners of today with the same brush.

Indeed, but ...

It was clear then that they did not see their role as 'policing' operators at all, just civil servants doing bureaucracy. Perhaps that attitude has changed.

What I'm not sure about is whether, now, the 'policing' aspect is carried out by D.V.S.A., not the Traffic Commissioners. P.C.V condition checks seem to be carried out by the D.V.S.A..

 

[Towers]

If that was upwards of 35 years ago then I don’t think you can possibly tar the Traffic Commissioners of today with the same brush.

Indeed, not to mention the period “soon after deregulation” must have been an absolute minefield full of shady operators, including some of the legitimate ones! Such an outfit would surely stand out much more in today’s climate.

 

[markymark2000]

So rather a long rant to say that the Traffic Commissioners, in my experience, have absolutely no interest in illegal PSV operation and you are wasting your time contacting them.

100%, I have the same experience now. Lack of will from the DVSA to investigate and then they have to report stuff to the Traffic Commissioner. This was even noted by former traffic commissioner for Wales in the recent Traffic Commissioners Annual Report (Link)

In 7.14, titled 'Victoria Davies'

I have continued to liaise with DVSA enforcement managers this year and to raise my concern about the reduction in the number of compliance cases being reported to me in Wales which has, inevitably, resulted in a reduction in hearing numbers.

While not related to the OP, it does provide some context on action from regulatory authorities. According to the statistics spreadsheet accompanied with the annual report, table 16 gives details on action taken at public inquires relating to PSV operators. 128 public inquiries were held regarding none compliance of PSV operators. Compared to sheet 6 which shows 842 public inquires held with regards to none compliance amongst HGV operators.

If that was upwards of 35 years ago then I don’t think you can possibly tar the Traffic Commissioners of today with the same brush.

Same applies now. Regulating PSVs seem to be put into the too difficult category. Easier to catch HGVs it seems. Given I've reported shed loads to the DVSA, with full evidence, over the past few years and not a single one of those operators has been called to a public inquiry, it says a lot.

 

[Poiuytre]

Same applies now. Regulating PSVs seem to be put into the too difficult category. Easier to catch HGVs it seems. Given I've reported shed loads to the DVSA, with full evidence, over the past few years and not a single one of those operators has been called to a public inquiry, it says a lot.

Have you ever had any correspondence from them as to why no action has been taken? It seems to create an unfair playing field for those operators who do try to do things properly. Every operator will undoubtedly make a mistake or two over time which is understandable. But as we know, there are some that will deliberately set out to cut corners... It seems that most areas have an operator that is well-known to be underhanded. So how do they get away with it...

There also seems to be a trend towards being firmer with independent operators and less so with large ones. I know of a large operator (not near me) who has earned recognition. I've no doubt that they have many policies in place, but on the ground the level of compliance seems to be very poor and managed by people lacking the relevant knowledge. I know of only one occasion where one the operator's vehicles have been pulled by DVSA. Once they realised who the operator was, they let the driver carry on without carrying out any checks. If they had checked the vehicle, they would of found out that the vehicle was being driven in-scope of EU rules by a driver who didn't even own a digi-card. If the vehicle was being operated by the nearby independent, I'm sure it would of been checked. It seems unfair.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Indeed, not to mention the period “soon after deregulation” must have been an absolute minefield full of shady operators, including some of the legitimate ones! Such an outfit would surely stand out much more in today’s climate.

Indeed, I think anyone with a slight interest would see that.

It seems that the only people who did NOT foresee it were the people at the top of the Department of Transport and of the Traffic Commissioners. If they had done so they might have thought it worth increasing staff complements to cope, which they evidently did not.

But it's the Civil Service we're looking at; the top people there make sure there are important responsibilities in their Job Descriptions to justify their high salaries but actually carrying out those responsibilities...

 

[markymark2000]

Have you ever had any correspondence from them as to why no action has been taken? It seems to create an unfair playing field for those operators who do try to do things properly. Every operator will undoubtedly make a mistake or two over time which is understandable. But as we know, there are some that will deliberately set out to cut corners... It seems that most areas have an operator that is well-known to be underhanded. So how do they get away with it...

Sadly not. Though I have just started to request feedback which the DVSA say you can do. However the reply to the request for feedback already lines up reasons to not provide feedback so it will be interesting if anything meaningful comes back.

Your request for feedback has been forwarded to the intelligence team, but there may be instances where DVSA may not be able to provide any feedback on intelligence information.

As the law requires information about individuals to be confidential, DVSA will not give progress reports or any information in relation to the information received.

While we may be unable to provide feedback on the information that we have received, we are extremely grateful for all information received from people like yourself that assist us in meeting our ultimate objective of saving lives, safer roads, cutting crime and protecting the environment.

 

[mjc]

It does happen - there is a case reported in Route One magazine, involving an unlicensed full size coach, which ended up being impounded.

Thanks for sharing that interesting case report, what that highlights though is the difficulty for the public. The hirer went through a broker, possibly with the not unreasonable expectation that the broker would have carried out some due diligence but that appears not to have been the case (or the operator lied to them, but that then brings into question the level of investigation they did).

 

[Titfield]

Given I've reported shed loads to the DVSA, with full evidence, over the past few years and not a single one of those operators has been called to a public inquiry, it says a lot.

An operator does not need to be called to a Public Inquiry. They can be called to an in Chambers Meeting with a TC or the matter can be resolved through an exchange of letters. Given the cost of PIs there has been a move towards In Chambers meetings. Furthermore for issues solely related to financial standing a PI is not required (the public can not attend sessions where financial standing is discussed).

There has also been a move towards desk based investigations because the data required is now much more readily available and communicable digitally by email. The days of having to scrutinise tachograph discs using a magnifying glass to ascertain the length of a break are now virtually gone. The software the DVSA use (and for that matter the operators) is very efficient at highlighting infringements.

As regards it being easier to catch HGVs there are a couple of factors to bear in mind: (1) there are far more HGVs and HGV operators than PSV and PSV operators (2) a lot of the work with PSV operators is done at the depot - rather than the roadside - so as to avoid creating inconvenience for passengers / passenger welfare issues.

The growth of unlicensed minibus operators though remains a problem. There are far fewer DVSA VE and TE examiners out on the roads of GB to observe what is going on. This is partly because of recruitment freezes and problems recruiting but also because more staff have been deployed to desk based investigations. If you are at home analysing data you are not on the road to see a minibus picking up people at the side of the road which you then follow up.

Having said all of that I have reported issues to the DVSA and have not seen any tangible evidence of enforcement.