Enforced Overtime

[SCDR_WMR]

Is that Drivers or Guards (or both!)?

EMR have two grades of Guards:

Train Managers on the Intercity trains (former Midland Mainline) are Outside, Committed.

Similar to above post, Senior Conductors on local trains (former Central Trains) are Outside, Committed for those who started after a certain date (can't remember what year), and Outside, Voluntary for those who started before that.

Both grades.

The newer contracts are somewhat a grey area. Apparently they are unenforceable and quite a few conductors will throw them in even though they are committed. I stand to be corrected though.

Yes very much is the case, with overtime being illegal to enforce under EU law still.

It's very depot dependant but if you make yourself unavailable, it's normally picked up by someone wanting extra OT.

The company and unions do try and give out 'extra marks' against you for not working a commited Sunday but again, it's very depot dependant.

 

[Watershed]

Yes very much is the case, with overtime being illegal to enforce under EU law still.

I have no idea where you get this from. Enforced overtime isn't illegal.

Yes, it's illegal to force someone to work more than a 48 hour week (unless they've chosen to opt out). But that is averaged over 17 weeks so you would have to be doing serious amounts of RDW to even come close to exceeding that.

 

[baz962]

Pretty sure that if the contract states you must do overtime , then you must. That's according to several sources. You.gov and citizens advice included. As long as it doesn't go over the 48 hour working time directive. An employer also doesn't have to pay you for overtime , except if that puts you less than minimum wage.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Pretty sure that if the contract states you must do overtime , then you must. That's according to several sources. You.gov and citizens advice included. As long as it doesn't go over the 48 hour working time directive. An employer also doesn't have to pay you for overtime , except if that puts you less than minimum wage.

Well you're more likely to break Hidden with RDW/Sundays anyway.
Also, the can't force OT line has been used in meetings with RMT for me so the company clearly believes it's a more grey area. Possibly due to having these differing contracts within the same grades

 

[ComUtoR]

I have no idea where you get this from. Enforced overtime isn't illegal.

So if you were booked 0900-1700 and your boss told you you had to work till 2000 that would be legal ? Because I don't believe that is the case.

Pretty sure that if the contract states you must do overtime , then you must.

All sources that I read say similar but with the caveat that any overtime, paid or otherwise, should be set out in your contract. You are obliged to meet the terms of your contract but otherwise you can refuse.

 

[Watershed]

So if you were booked 0900-1700 and your boss told you you had to work till 2000 that would be legal ? Because I don't believe that is the case.

If it's in your contract, then yes.

A lot of people seem to mix up 'illegal' and 'not something the company can contractually force me to do'.

 

[ComUtoR]

If it's in your contract, then yes.

Which is what I stated.

However, outside of your contract you can say no to any overtime requested. I think that where the term "forced" is being used.

 

[Watershed]

Which is what I stated.

However, outside of your contract you can say no to any overtime requested. I think that where the term "forced" is being used.

Committed Sundays generally means that it's in your contract that you must work Sundays. So even though it's overtime, it's forced in that sense.

 

[ComUtoR]

Committed Sundays generally means that it's in your contract that you must work Sundays. So even though it's overtime, it's forced in that sense.

If you sign that contract then it isn't forced. It's agreed.

Driver contracts tend to have specific clauses where late running, report writing, training, Sundays etc etc are all covered. What my TOC cannot do is book me outside of my booked booking off time. (more books than a library) My TOC has a duty of care to ensure I book off on time. Plenty of Drivers at my TOC have refused to run trains in times of disruption because it will take them over their booking off time. This would be a case of forced overtime. We also have a clause in that you can work up to 12hrs if you got stuck somewhere but at that point they must the relieve you. (this has actually happened at my TOC)

"forcing" someone do do anything outside of their contract, overtime or otherwise, puts the employer in a very precarious position.

With 'committed Sundays' it will vary. Some will be set out by contract and others may be set out by local agreements or simply by long standing tradition. I think the issue is that you have a potential conflict in that Sunday is contracted outside the working week but you are also obligated to work them. What may be happening is that you get booked as RD on a master roster so some see getting booked as 'illegal' because you are technically booked off work that day.

Again, all sources state that overtime must be by agreement, written down etc. I've never worked for a company that didn't state what the terms and conditions were for overtime. I'm sure there are some out there.

 

[dk1]

As a driver with a TOC we are more than aware that eventualities happen making late running inevitable. What isn’t tolerated is being booked to a job that goes as little as 1 minute over our rostered finish time without first getting that driver to agree. Personally there has always a good relationship between me, the rosters & the duty traincrew managers who will have the decency to ask if it’s ok & normally offer some sort of carrot.

 

[Horizon22]

If you sign that contract then it isn't forced. It's agreed.

Driver contracts tend to have specific clauses where late running, report writing, training, Sundays etc etc are all covered. What my TOC cannot do is book me outside of my booked booking off time. (more books than a library) My TOC has a duty of care to ensure I book off on time. Plenty of Drivers at my TOC have refused to run trains in times of disruption because it will take them over their booking off time. This would be a case of forced overtime. We also have a clause in that you can work up to 12hrs if you got stuck somewhere but at that point they must the relieve you. (this has actually happened at my TOC)

"forcing" someone do do anything outside of their contract, overtime or otherwise, puts the employer in a very precarious position.

Interesting. I know of place where Control managers can authorise over 12h working in unique situations during periods of severe disruption normally late at night (especially if it is to get the affected crew member back to their home depot) if both parties agree.

 

[greatkingrat]

Interesting. I know of place where Control managers can authorise over 12h working in unique situations during periods of severe disruption normally late at night (especially if it is to get the affected crew member back to their home depot) if both parties agree.

I think the point is that once they reach 12 hours the driver can refuse to continue if they so wish. In practice they may choose to agree to continue, particularly if they are heading in the direction of their home depot anyway, as it will likely get them home quicker than waiting for a relieving driver to turn up.

 

[Horizon22]

I think the point is that once they reach 12 hours the driver can refuse to continue if they so wish. In practice they may choose to agree to continue, particularly if they are heading in the direction of their home depot anyway, as it will likely get them home quicker than waiting for a relieving driver to turn up.

That's true. But normally this is a "job has stopped" sort of thing and very few refuse because they appreciate the difficulties of getting a relief driver somewhere. I appreciate it might be different if you're on a suburban commuter TOC or an intercity one.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

The issue of going over 12 hours, and why crew rarely do is that should an operational incident occur after that point then you know you wil have the book thrown at you as you were fatigued due to being over the Hidden hours

 

[Horizon22]

The issue of going over 12 hours, and why crew rarely do is that should an operational incident occur after that point then you know you wil have the book thrown at you as you were fatigued due to being over the Hidden hours

I think that's a slightly different issue if it has been authorised by a senior Control manager in extremis. But staff are of course able to refuse, although the practicalities of the situation might mean the quickest way for them to get home is to drive/crew the train they are currently on.

 

[chesterred16]

So if you were booked 0900-1700 and your boss told you you had to work till 2000 that would be legal ? Because I don't believe that is the case.

Yes, entirely legal unless your contract specifically says you don't have to work overtime - and I've never seen one that does. The vast majority of contracts will say something along the lines of 'reasonable overtime may be requested from time to time as per business needs' or some such guff. Not saying it's right but it's deffo legal. Otherwise industries such as retail, haulage etc would never be able to cope with peak demand periods such as Christmas. Obviously the Working Time Directive still applies.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

I think that's a slightly different issue if it has been authorised by a senior Control manager in extremis. But staff are of course able to refuse, although the practicalities of the situation might mean the quickest way for them to get home is to drive/crew the train they are currently on.

Any time I've been asked to work over 12, I've always said empty stock move only. No way I looking after passengers after 12 hours work haha!

There is a difference of course between OT and RDW/Sunday working. OT being at the end of your shift, likely due to delays or operational incident, etc.

RDW cannot be enforced obviously, though we are under pressure currently (seemingly endless emails from head of departments) to make ourselves available to stem cancellations.

With Sundays, I would say that although I am commited, it doesn't state in my contact which Sundays just X number so I reckon I could get away with working the 1st 13 of the year and say that's me done for the year

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Dec 2021 ==

Yes, entirely legal unless your contract specifically says you don't have to work overtime - and I've never seen one that does. The vast majority of contracts will say something along the lines of 'reasonable overtime may be requested from time to time as per business needs' or some such guff. Not saying it's right but it's deffo legal. Otherwise industries such as retail, haulage etc would never be able to cope with peak demand periods such as Christmas. Obviously the Working Time Directive still applies.

Pretty sure that although legal to request, they absolutely cannot enforce it. Having previously worked in management for a huge department store, staff have minimum contractual hours, but you certainly can't just rota someone in for extra shifts that they aren't available for and then discipline for not working. Xmas works on temp staff with some OT in retail, railway works on OT alone

 

[dk1]

Interesting. I know of place where Control managers can authorise over 12h working in unique situations during periods of severe disruption normally late at night (especially if it is to get the affected crew member back to their home depot) if both parties agree.

I did 15h29 a few months ago following flooding at Forest Gate. Control got my manager to speak to me who authorised it to take as long as it takes as long as I’m happy to continue. Just wanted to get home & avoid the chaos on the buses/taxis which where largely non-existent as local roads where blocked for several hours. Myself, the guard & thankfully catering all remained with the train & ran back ECS in the early hours. Good Sunday payer that

 

[Horizon22]

Any time I've been asked to work over 12, I've always said empty stock move only. No way I looking after passengers after 12 hours work haha!

There is a difference of course between OT and RDW/Sunday working. OT being at the end of your shift, likely due to delays or operational incident, etc.

RDW cannot be enforced obviously, though we are under pressure currently (seemingly endless emails from head of departments) to make ourselves available to stem cancellations.

With Sundays, I would say that although I am commited, it doesn't state in my contact which Sundays just X number so I reckon I could get away with working the 1st 13 of the year and say that's me done for the year

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Dec 2021 ==


Pretty sure that although legal to request, they absolutely cannot enforce it. Having previously worked in management for a huge department store, staff have minimum contractual hours, but you certainly can't just rota someone in for extra shifts that they aren't available for and then discipline for not working. Xmas works on temp staff with some OT in retail, railway works on OT alone

That's your choice, although turfing all the passengers out somewhere in the middle of serious disruption with little to no options (I presume) I don't think is great.

Obviously RDW can't be enforced but given the general backlog of trainees, its not surprising there's lots of begging requests. As for working the first 13, when your rostered turn comes up I wouldn't want to tun that risk when the manager asks what happened!

 

[Watershed]

Pretty sure that although legal to request, they absolutely cannot enforce it. Having previously worked in management for a huge department store, staff have minimum contractual hours, but you certainly can't just rota someone in for extra shifts that they aren't available for and then discipline for not working. Xmas works on temp staff with some OT in retail, railway works on OT alone

Again it all depends on the wording of the contract.

For example a lot of people in salaried office type roles will have clauses saying something like "you will normally work X per week, however from time to time you may be required to work additional hours as directed".

If someone refused to work overtime in those circumstances, they could definitely face disciplinary sanctions. And that's even though no additional overtime payment would be made.

Where overtime attracts an additional payment, it can definitely be mandatory - as is the case in of a lot of traincrew contracts.

 

[PupCuff]

The issue of going over 12 hours, and why crew rarely do is that should an operational incident occur after that point then you know you wil have the book thrown at you as you were fatigued due to being over the Hidden hours

Who does this book throwing? I often hear this quoted but I've never been able to catch them in the act. I've started to wonder if they are perhaps in cahoots with that man on the platform who keeps giving out dodgy advice to passengers.

Managers should know their company's fatigue management policies and if they don't it shouldn't end up being the Driver or (ultimately) the customers' problem. If the Control are asking crews to work outwith the policy then that needs addressing with the Control really. If the fatigue management policies need reviewing then these things tend to come out in the wash after a while anyway even if nobody proactively speaks up to get it done.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Who does this book throwing? I often hear this quoted but I've never been able to catch them in the act. I've started to wonder if they are perhaps in cahoots with that man on the platform who keeps giving out dodgy advice to passengers.

Managers should know their company's fatigue management policies and if they don't it shouldn't end up being the Driver or (ultimately) the customers' problem. If the Control are asking crews to work outwith the policy then that needs addressing with the Control really. If the fatigue management policies need reviewing then these things tend to come out in the wash after a while anyway even if nobody proactively speaks up to get it done.

The book is thrown by whomever is investigating or disciplining. Control are normally the ones putting pressure to exceed hours and it's up to train crew to say no, but sometimes they very much word it that it's an order/instruction. Rarely do they ask.
Yes local management normally back up train crew in situations like that, but as soon as area managers or say ops standards get involved it seems to lose any grey areas and more down rules and regulations. 'You agreed to work that train despite being over your hours' etc

I can only speak from personal experience, but that's how I've certainly perceived it over the years at my TOC

 

[AgentGemini]

The book is thrown by whomever is investigating or disciplining. Control are normally the ones putting pressure to exceed hours and it's up to train crew to say no, but sometimes they very much word it that it's an order/instruction. Rarely do they ask.
Yes local management normally back up train crew in situations like that, but as soon as area managers or say ops standards get involved it seems to lose any grey areas and more down rules and regulations. 'You agreed to work that train despite being over your hours' etc

I can only speak from personal experience, but that's how I've certainly perceived it over the years at my TOC

management should not be putting their ground staff in that situation in the first place and should know better. However often they will cut corners or screw their said groundstaff over and then 180-degree turn on them when things don't go as planned. A sad state of affairs.

 

[43066]

That's your choice, although turfing all the passengers out somewhere in the middle of serious disruption with little to no options (I presume) I don't think is great.

Obviously RDW can't be enforced but given the general backlog of trainees, its not surprising there's lots of begging requests. As for working the first 13, when your rostered turn comes up I wouldn't want to tun that risk when the manager asks what happened!

The usual “requests” wouldn’t really be connected to rest days which are agreed days in advance, it would be things like asking you to do a split or attachment at the end of your shift, which isn’t on your diagram. Strictly speaking you can say no (and they’d have to ask a standby or spare man to do it). The vast majority of drivers would oblige to be helpful, but this is where goodwill comes and that works both ways. If people are regularly made to sit right up until the end of a spare shift (beyond the point where they can actually be given anything to do) they might be less willing to help out with things like this, for example.

Equally where rosters do things like moving people more than the agreed maximum off spare without telling them - that’s much more likely to meet with a refusal than if they ask first if you would do it to help them out.

It would be extremely rare for a request being denied to involve turfing passengers off - something would have gone seriously wrong for a driver to be asked to work a passenger train knowing it would take them beyond 12 hours (this is, of course, different from having started the journey well before time and then been unexpectedly delayed for many hours).

 

[Horizon22]

The usual “requests” wouldn’t really be connected to rest days which are agreed days in advance, it would be things like asking you to do a split or attachment at the end of your shift, which isn’t on your diagram. Strictly speaking you can say no (and they’d have to ask a standby or spare man to do it). The vast majority of drivers would oblige to be helpful, but this is where goodwill comes and that works both ways. If people are regularly made to sit right up until the end of a spare shift (beyond the point where they can actually be given anything to do) they might be less willing to help out with things like this, for example.

Equally where rosters do things like moving people more than the agreed maximum off spare without telling them - that’s much more likely to meet with a refusal than if they ask first if you would do it to help them out.

It would be extremely rare for a request being denied to involve turfing passengers off - something would have gone seriously wrong for a driver to be asked to work a passenger train knowing it would take them beyond 12 hours (this is, of course, different from having started the journey well before time and then been unexpectedly delayed for many hours).

On the other hand I look it at from the other perspective - sure if something isn't on a diagram yet there's a gap of 90 minutes and its not a booked break, I would kindly ask a driver to do something extra and to be fair, 95% of the time it's not a problem. Obviously you have to be mindful if it will take someone close to the end of the day, but sometimes there's no options. There will be a bit of grumbling but so long as the job finishes even just 5 minutes before a spare shift, its absoutely fine. I guess its a psychological thing more than anything.

As you say goodwill and good communication is the best way to do it and even though there might be a few choice words thrown between controllers - resources - crew occasionally, most of the time its forgotten by the next shift!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Dec 2021 ==

Who does this book throwing? I often hear this quoted but I've never been able to catch them in the act. I've started to wonder if they are perhaps in cahoots with that man on the platform who keeps giving out dodgy advice to passengers.

Managers should know their company's fatigue management policies and if they don't it shouldn't end up being the Driver or (ultimately) the customers' problem. If the Control are asking crews to work outwith the policy then that needs addressing with the Control really. If the fatigue management policies need reviewing then these things tend to come out in the wash after a while anyway even if nobody proactively speaks up to get it done.

My understanding was that authorising +12h under very strict circumstances with senior approval was universal amongst most TOCs but perhaps not?

 

[43066]

On the other hand I look it at from the other perspective - sure if something isn't on a diagram yet there's a gap of 90 minutes and its not a booked break, I would kindly ask a driver to do something extra and to be fair, 95% of the time it's not a problem. Obviously you have to be mindful if it will take someone close to the end of the day, but sometimes there's no options. There will be a bit of grumbling but so long as the job finishes even just 5 minutes before a spare shift, its absoutely fine. I guess its a psychological thing more than anything.

Absolutely; and to be fair it would take an awkward so and so to refuse to do a split in a 90 minute break! We are generally advised that the minimum 30min PNB has to treated as sacrosanct, even if it’s to your own disbenefit (we would all rather get home 30 mins earlier than spend it sat at work having a break before working the “train home”, but it occasionally happens).

As you say goodwill and good communication is the best way to do it and even though there might be a few choice words thrown between controllers - resources - crew occasionally, most of the time its forgotten by the next shift!

Agreed it generally works perfectly well, albeit goodwill is key - just as in so many areas of life.

 

[si_145653]

Does the railway industry not operate standby crew like the airline industry

My other half works in the airline industry and regularly has standby shifts to step in last minute if another crew member cannot operate for some reason.

 

[Horizon22]

Does the railway industry not operate standby crew like the airline industry

My other half works in the airline industry and regularly has standby shifts to step in last minute if another crew member cannot operate for some reason.

Yes they do - the situation may arise when all the spare crew have been used up or the issue occurs somewhere on route.

 

[jamesst]

Does the railway industry not operate standby crew like the airline industry

My other half works in the airline industry and regularly has standby shifts to step in last minute if another crew member cannot operate for some reason.

They certainly do but a bit of disruption or sickness for example will quickly use up that slack.

 

[43066]

Does the railway industry not operate standby crew like the airline industry

My other half works in the airline industry and regularly has standby shifts to step in last minute if another crew member cannot operate for some reason.

It does indeed: typically standby is a rostered turn where you sit in reserve in the depot.

Spare turns in the roster can either be allocated running turns or (rarely in my case) remain unallocated. If a running turn is not rostered spare drivers will generally be expected to also sit in reserve in the depot, and would generally be used in preference to a standby driver.