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Energy price rises and price cap discussion.

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Ediswan

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I was initially going to make the same point about it being only a penny, but that covers the period they can't charge you for! It seems like there was also some discrepancy on the current bill but it isn't clear what this is (unless what you paid over the errant period is your balance, in which case the discrepancy is around the £1.50 mark)
I missed that. They have effectively said they are waiving 1p, but not said what additional charge they are making for the last 12 months. Unless somebody used the wrong variables for the displayed dates in the detailed calculation and it is the 1p.

@Howardh could probably work it out from previous bills, but should not have to.
 
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Howardh

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I missed that. They have effectively said they are waiving 1p, but not said what additional charge they are making for the last 12 months. Unless somebody used the wrong variables for the displayed dates in the detailed calculation and it is the 1p.

@Howardh could probably work it out from previous bills, but should not have to.
The only way they can claim money off me is if they have been charging me from the wrong tariff; example if they charged me 3.5p kwh for gas and it should have been 6p, however when I signed up to the standard deal, if the contract said 3.5p that is what we both signed up for. Otherwise why have a contract? It's now just over 7p as it went up in line with the previous rise. They can't really come back and say "oh, we got it wrong, you should have been paying 10p" because the contract currently reads 7p. But that's all immaterial as the bills match my useage and the tariffs are correct!

So the latter could be if they took my money form an estimated bill because I hadn't been sending readings in, which could go either way (use too much and pay more; or too little and get credit back) but that's not the case either, every reading has been sent in (previously via their website/myaccount) or directly (using the smart meter). Never missed one, always on the 7th!!

I know as fact my previous bills are correct as I scrutinise them!!
 

kristiang85

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99% sure this has been sent by a computer that's picked up a 1p rounding error. No human will have been involved.
Not worth stressing over IMO.
I'd be getting more exercised about the £800 of your money they are holding in their account. Bulb did that to us so I reduced the direct debit to £3 until I'd recovered all of it.

Quite. Given interest rates are a bit higher now, I'd want something added on too! But you know they won't do that.
 

trebor79

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However, if burning a tree, then you would hope that the plan is to plant another tree to replace it, which willl then absorb X kg of carbon from the atmosphere during its life. Get a cycle of doing that, and it will be carbon-neutral-ish in the long run, provided you're not using too much CO2 in all the processes involved with managing the tree and chopping it down etc.
And has been shown time and again, all that havrestinf, processing and transporting releases more carbon over the life cycle than just burning fossil fuels.
We should not be burning trees.
Small trees don't really absorb much carbon.
Leave the trees alone, and plant more.
 

Howardh

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Quite. Given interest rates are a bit higher now, I'd want something added on too! But you know they won't do that.
OVO pay 5% interest on credit up to £1000*. Better than building society rates, and in effect they are paying my VAT for me!

*I think that's the limit, not checked recently but I get the "interest" monthly.
 

duncanp

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Looks like the government is going to have to dig deep into our its pockets this winter.

The Resolution Foundation are suggesting that there should be a 1p in the pound increase in all income tax rates to pay for this, and whilst some people might object to this, the cost of a 1p in the pound increase in income tax would in many cases be less than the increase in energy bills if there is no freeze to the energy price cap.

I would expect an emergency budget before the end of September.


Covid-style bailouts for energy bills considered as Government warned of civil unrest​

Calls for urgent help to stop the crisis from wiping out swathes of the economy

The Government is considering Covid-style bailouts for small companies facing ruin from energy bills, as energy executives warn ministers they fear civil unrest this winter without major interventions.

Ministers are understood to be drawing up a list of options to present to the next prime minister when Liz Truss or Rishi Sunak takes office next month.

A grant scheme for small businesses is also among a range of proposals put forward by the British Chambers of Commerce to the Chancellor Nadhim Zahawi and the Business Secretary Kwasi Kwarteng.

Small businesses face “a tsunami of costs”, warned Shevaun Haviland, director general of the BCC. She called for a repeat of the support offered through the pandemic.

“Using the system that was put in place during Covid, for example grants paid by local authorities, would help those at the smaller end who are really struggling to keep going,” Ms Haviland said.

The BCC estimates that around 4.5m small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs) will need around £5,000 each to afford their power bills over the winter, amounting to £23bn of Government support.

Without serious aid “businesses will have to reduce output, stop hiring and some will have to cease trading”.

Alternatively, the BCC has suggested taking money off businesses’ bills by giving the money directly to energy suppliers, as is happening with household gas and electricity this winter.

“The Government put in so much effort and time and money to support those businesses through Covid - don’t give up now, we don’t want to go backwards,” Ms Haviland said.

Energy company bosses have warned ministers they fear civil unrest if nothing is done to cushion the blow of rising bills.

One senior industry figure said they were concerned about what could happen when households "realise how bad this is going to get". The subject has been raised at roundtable meetings with the Government.

The Resolution Foundation said “radical” policies are needed to support the most vulnerable with rocketing bills.

The think-tank said in a report published on Thursday that Labour's proposal to freeze the price cap at £1,971 would cost the taxpayer £36bn this winter alone.

The richest fifth of households would benefit more in six months than they would in a year if Liz Truss, the frontrunner to become the next PM, cancelled the recent rise in National Insurance.

Any blanket freeze should be partly paid for with an extra penny on all income tax rates, the Resolution Foundation said. This would raise £9.5bn, with 60pc paid by the top fifth of households.

Alternatively, a "social tariff", with big bill discounts for the lowest income households would also benefit the poorest in society.

As well as grants for small businesses, the BCC wants VAT on businesses’ energy bills to be cut from 20pc to 5pc and for April’s National Insurance tax increases to be postponed for at least 12 months.

Ms Haviland added that the Government should look at giving energy regulator Ofgem more powers to compel energy companies to offer small businesses new fixed rate deals.

A Government spokesman said: “The civil service is ready to deliver on the commitments of whoever wins the leadership context.”

“We’ve cut taxes for hundreds of thousands of businesses by increasing the Employment Allowance and slashing fuel duty.

“We’ve also introduced a 50pc business rates relief for retail, hospitality and leisure businesses and put the brakes on bill increases by freezing the business rates multiplier, worth £4.6bn over the next five years.”
 

trebor79

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Looks like the government is going to have to dig deep into our its pockets this winter.

The Resolution Foundation are suggesting that there should be a 1p in the pound increase in all income tax rates to pay for this, and whilst some people might object to this, the cost of a 1p in the pound increase in income tax would in many cases be less than the increase in energy bills if there is no freeze to the energy price cap.

I would expect an emergency budget before the end of September.

I can't see Truss slapping up to 3% on income tax (depending which ban you're in) having campaigned on a policy of cutting tax!
I also fundamentally object to being taxed to prop up failing businesses. If a business is not viable, it shuts. Tough tittie. Why on earth should I be taxed to prevent some small business going pop and have absolutely none of the benefits if and when that business returns to profitability?
"Energy bosses" warning of social unrest. Are they experts in sociology or law and order then?

The media seem to want us to become to kind of pseudo-socialist state. Time to move elsewhere in the world if any of this come to pass.

The most needy need some help. Everyone else has real options to reduce their consumption and/or costs. I've invested such that my electricity bills will be about a quarter of what they were in 2021. People still tend to heat entire houses when they are only in one room most of the day.
Businesses, like I sais if they can't cover their costs they close. I don't see why an exception should be made because they can't cover one particular cost.
 

najaB

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"Energy bosses" warning of social unrest. Are they experts in sociology or law and order then?
You don't need to be. You just need to have taken an Intro to Psychology course and be able to read a history book. When people's base physiological needs aren't met, governments tend to fall.
 

trebor79

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You don't need to be. You just need to have taken an Intro to Psychology course and be able to read a history book. When people's base physiological needs aren't met, governments tend to fall.
They will be met, it's just going to cost more so people will have to be more selective and less wasteful about how they use it. Maybe that's not such a bad thing?
 

najaB

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They will be met, it's just going to cost more so people will have to be more selective and less wasteful about how they use it. Maybe that's not such a bad thing?
Indeed, it's not a bad thing. But the warning is valid - if action isn't taken to make sure that people can survive through the winter, the Government won't.
 

trebor79

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Indeed, it's not a bad thing. But the warning is valid - if action isn't taken to make sure that people can survive through the winter, the Government won't.
There's a lot of hyperbole flying around at the moment. Government is being railroaded into another COVID-style splurge IMO and that's not good. We are all going to be immersurably poorer for a very long time (thanks to inflation, higher tax and poorer public services) if they start dishing tens of billions out for years. And it will be years as energy prices are not going to come down any time soon, if ever. When do you stop handing out the money once you start?
As with COVID, the consequences are not even being thought about, let alone considered.
 

Trainbike46

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They will be met, it's just going to cost more so people will have to be more selective and less wasteful about how they use it. Maybe that's not such a bad thing?
you seem to massively underestimate how many people don't own their home (and so aren't allowed to make efficiency upgrades) or who were living on the edge of poverty before this explosion of energy prices happened (going from £1000 to £4200 in typical bills), or more commonly, both. Many people will not be able to afford the higher bills, and have no options to lower them. You also seem to think everyone is behaving massively wastefully, and that is plain wrong, specifically among those least well off. I'm sure most middle class families could use less energy (and I really hope they will), but not everyone can. Combined with the rising prices of food (and the cheapest options in the supermarket are going up more quickly than the expensive ones!), this could get really bad if the government doesn't step in

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

There's a lot of hyperbole flying around at the moment. Government is being railroaded into another COVID-style splurge IMO and that's not good. We are all going to be immersurably poorer for a very long time (thanks to inflation, higher tax and poorer public services) if they start dishing tens of billions out for years. And it will be years as energy prices are not going to come down any time soon, if ever. When do you stop handing out the money once you start?
As with COVID, the consequences are not even being thought about, let alone considered.
That's why I, and loads of others on this thread were advocating for insulation, green energy expansion, etc., with measures like:
-upgrading all council housing to be well insulated
-Changing building codes so everything new build is passivehouse level insulated
-Changing rules so private landlords are forced to insulate their properties, or sell them off into the owner occupier market
-accelerating the deployment of green energy and nuclear build-out
-support for homeowners to insulate their house
-making it easier to do DIY insulation, for those capable of doing that

All these are measures that will bring down bills in the long-term, for one-off investment. Unfortunately, some support will be needed this winter. But measures that cut energy demand should be the backbone to bring bills down long-term.

There's evidence bills would be a lot lower now if David Cameron hadn't effectively gutted insulation (and onshore wind): https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-cutting-the-green-crap-has-added-2-5bn-to-uk-energy-bills/
 
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trebor79

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you seem to massively underestimate how many people don't own their home (and so aren't allowed to make efficiency upgrades) or who were living on the edge of poverty before this explosion of energy prices happened (going from £1000 to £4200 in typical bills), or more commonly, both. Many people will not be able to afford the higher bills, and have no options to lower them. You also seem to think everyone is behaving massively wastefully, and that is plain wrong, specifically among those least well off. I'm sure most middle class families could use less energy (and I really hope they will), but not everyone can. Combined with the rising prices of food (and the cheapest options in the supermarket are going up more quickly than the expensive ones!), this could get really bad if the government doesn't step in
And when would you propose government "step out", given prices will not come down to previous levels? Or do we just print money and then everyone suffers through rampant inflation (and guess who suffers most from inflation...)?
 

najaB

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There's a lot of hyperbole flying around at the moment.
Yes, the situation of some middle-class people who won't be able to afford their ski-holiday to France this year is maybe the focus of some. And yes, we shouldn't be tearing our hair out because they might actually have to turn the Aga off!

However, as @Trainbike46 points out, there is a sizable population who were already on the edge even before the recent inflation spike, and who may die if there is a cold winter.
 

trebor79

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you seem to massively underestimate how many people don't own their home (and so aren't allowed to make efficiency upgrades) or who were living on the edge of poverty before this explosion of energy prices happened (going from £1000 to £4200 in typical bills), or more commonly, both. Many people will not be able to afford the higher bills, and have no options to lower them. You also seem to think everyone is behaving massively wastefully, and that is plain wrong, specifically among those least well off. I'm sure most middle class families could use less energy (and I really hope they will), but not everyone can. Combined with the rising prices of food (and the cheapest options in the supermarket are going up more quickly than the expensive ones!), this could get really bad if the government doesn't step in

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


That's why I, and loads of others on this thread were advocating for insulation, green energy expansion, etc., with measures like:
-upgrading all council housing to be well insulated
-Changing building codes so everything new build is passivehouse level insulated
-Changing rules so private landlords are forced to insulate their properties, or sell them off into the owner occupier market
-accelerating the deployment of green energy and nuclear build-out
-support for homeowners to insulate their house
-making it easier to do DIY insulation, for those capable of doing that

All these are measures that will bring down bills in the long-term, for one-off investment. Unfortunately, some support will be needed this winter. But measures that cut energy demand should be the backbone to bring bills down long-term.
Completely agree with all of this, other than handing out billions of pounds just to pay bills. Once you start that it's politically very difficult to stop, as has been shown countless times around the world.
 

Trainbike46

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And when would you propose government "step out", given prices will not come down to previous levels? Or do we just print money and then everyone suffers through rampant inflation (and guess who suffers most from inflation...)?
The government should only support bills in winter. Hopefully, one winter of support will be enough, but if a second winter of support turns out to be necessary so be it, hopefully with smaller support. I don't believe the government should print money for this, it should be fully funded by extra taxation. My preference would be through an (improved) windfall tax on oil and gas (and possibly electricity) companies. Of course the government should also take other measures to reduce inflation at the same time

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Completely agree with all of this, other than handing out billions of pounds just to pay bills. Once you start that it's politically very difficult to stop, as has been shown countless times around the world.
The ineptitude of previous governments to plan for fossil fuel price shocks has made bill support inevitable. I wish it wasn't necessary, and if it wasn't for stupid decision like David Cameron's in 2013 to stop insulating, the delay of the zero carbon homes standard, the closure of the gas storage facilities, insufficiently fast roll-out of renewables, relaxation of rules on landlords regarding minimum energy efficiency standards, it probably wouldn't have been. But all those things did happen, so here we are

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

It's not as if fossil fuel price shocks are a kind of thing the government couldn't see coming; there have been a bunch, and it should have been obvious that more would come in the future, even if you don't know when
 
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trebor79

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It's not as if fossil fuel price shocks are a kind of thing the government couldn't see coming; there have been a bunch, and it should have been obvious that more would come in the future, even if you don't know when
It was pretty obvious when the day ahead gas price last July was more expensive than it had been at any point in the previous winter.
I agree with all of your points re: longer term decisions which have enfeebled our position as a country.
 

najaB

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The government should only support bills in winter. Hopefully, one winter of support will be enough, but if a second winter of support turns out to be necessary so be it, hopefully with smaller support. I don't believe the government should print money for this, it should be fully funded by extra taxation. My preference would be through an (improved) windfall tax on oil and gas (and possibly electricity) companies. Of course the government should also take other measures to reduce inflation at the same time
My plan would be slightly different - very heavily tax dividends from energy companies, but allow them to offset those taxes (and some corporation tax) by putting money into a protected fund which can only be used to fund energy efficiency or renewables schemes - so if they put 1 pound into the scheme it protects 2 pounds in profit from corporation tax in future years. Spending from the fund would be controlled by a separate body rather than the energy companies themselves, and the tax relief would only apply when the money has actually been spent (to avoid them just banking the money).

This would directly address the main argument that the energy companies make against windfall taxes - that they discourage investment - it would effectively be a 33% forced investment.
 

DelayRepay

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Looks like the government is going to have to dig deep into our its pockets this winter.

The Resolution Foundation are suggesting that there should be a 1p in the pound increase in all income tax rates to pay for this, and whilst some people might object to this, the cost of a 1p in the pound increase in income tax would in many cases be less than the increase in energy bills if there is no freeze to the energy price cap.

I would expect an emergency budget before the end of September.

As the article refers to small businesses, I thought I'd mention reading on my local news site that a small butchers shop is closing because, they say, the cost of refrigeration is now too high. I imagine there are other factors at play, e.g. reduced sales as customers seek cheaper alternatives, but it does show that the impact is wider than just households.

It is a shame that a business that survived all the Covid rules and regulations has been pushed to the wall by the current situation. But, rinse and repeat up and down the land.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

It was pretty obvious when the day ahead gas price last July was more expensive than it had been at any point in the previous winter.
I agree with all of your points re: longer term decisions which have enfeebled our position as a country.

It was obvious to most people. The problem was that by July we no longer had a functioning government, so there was nobody to act even if someone thought they should.
 

Trainbike46

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My plan would be slightly different - very heavily tax dividends from energy companies, but allow them to offset those taxes (and some corporation tax) by putting money into a protected fund which can only be used to fund energy efficiency or renewables schemes - so if they put 1 pound into the scheme it protects 2 pounds in profit from corporation tax in future years. Spending from the fund would be controlled by a separate body rather than the energy companies themselves, and the tax relief would only apply when the money has actually been spent (to avoid them just banking the money).

This would directly address the main argument that the energy companies make against windfall taxes - that they discourage investment - it would effectively be a 33% forced investment.
I like that solution for a windfall tax on the energy companies, but I don't think that would be ideal for oil and gas companies. For them, a permanent new tax on dividends (set at something similar to what is already in existence in many other european countries), might be a better option
 

trebor79

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I like that solution for a windfall tax on the energy companies, but I don't think that would be ideal for oil and gas companies. For them, a permanent new tax on dividends (set at something similar to what is already in existence in many other european countries), might be a better option
Energy companies (the ones that sell gas and electric to housholds) aren't making any profit in the current market. There's nothing to windfall tax there. In fact as demonstrated by the number that have gone bust, they are losing money hand over fist.
 

Trainbike46

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Energy companies (the ones that sell gas and electric to housholds) aren't making any profit in the current market. There's nothing to windfall tax there. In fact as demonstrated by the number that have gone bust, they are losing money hand over fist.
That varies massively between companies; my supplier (SSE Airtricity, a separate company from the SSE that supplies households in England, Scotland and Wales), is making massive profits because it has generating capacity far outstripping what it supplies to consumers, selling the excess on the market for large profits. Others, such as Bulb and the others that went bankrupt, are in the opposite position as they had basically no generating capacity themselves and bought everything on the market, where prices exploded
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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Yes, the situation of some middle-class people who won't be able to afford their ski-holiday to France this year is maybe the focus of some. And yes, we shouldn't be tearing our hair out because they might actually have to turn the Aga off!
What are the advantages and disadvantages to using an Aga unit for the averaged sized family?
 

AM9

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What are the advantages and disadvantages to using an Aga unit for the averaged sized family?
Unless there is a need to keep the room that it is in at permanently higher temperature than the outside ambient, only aesthetics really.
 

najaB

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What are the advantages and disadvantages to using an Aga unit for the averaged sized family?
Advantages depend on the type of unit, but the claimed advantages are that they are more versatile than a hob/oven combination as they can be used for anything that requires heat (it's not unknown for people to use them to dry their clothes!)

The main disadvantage is that they use a lot more energy than an oven/hob since they're usually left on all the time because the huge thermal inertia means that it takes hours for them to get up to temperature.
 

yorksrob

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I can't see Truss slapping up to 3% on income tax (depending which ban you're in) having campaigned on a policy of cutting tax!
I also fundamentally object to being taxed to prop up failing businesses. If a business is not viable, it shuts. Tough tittie. Why on earth should I be taxed to prevent some small business going pop and have absolutely none of the benefits if and when that business returns to profitability?
"Energy bosses" warning of social unrest. Are they experts in sociology or law and order then?

The media seem to want us to become to kind of pseudo-socialist state. Time to move elsewhere in the world if any of this come to pass.

The most needy need some help. Everyone else has real options to reduce their consumption and/or costs. I've invested such that my electricity bills will be about a quarter of what they were in 2021. People still tend to heat entire houses when they are only in one room most of the day.
Businesses, like I sais if they can't cover their costs they close. I don't see why an exception should be made because they can't cover one particular cost.

The only businesses that should be allowed to fail because of this, are the privatised energy companies. The only reason they were set up in the first place was to provide efficiency gains to customers, and since they can't do that, there's no point in having them.

Nationalise the gas well and sell it at production rates to customers.
 

najaB

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The only reason they were set up in the first place was to provide efficiency gains to customers*, and since they can't do that, there's no point in having them.
*Allegedly.

Others might say that they were set up to funnel the benefits of the investments made by the nationalised CEGB into the pockets of Tory donors investors who would then duck and run when the scam came to light. Of course I'm not saying that, but others might.
 

HSTEd

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Natural gas wholesale prices have now risen so high that they appear to be more expensive, per joule, than fully taxed petrol/motor spirit.
 
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