Energy price rises and price cap discussion.

[Howardh]

Still sold for catering I believe. But I agree that all the domestic kettles I have seen in recent years have the heating element in the base.

When my mum had carers coming in at all hours and seemingly at random, it was a nuisense forever boiling a kettle for them, so I bought a tea urn but just filled it with hot water and kept it on all day. The element was in the bottom and it was double-skinned but anything but a vacumn, so the heat was lost. However that heat did warm up the kitchen so I could turn the radiator off, so two jobs in one.

Thinking that might be the way to go for myself, a constant supply of hot water for teas and also heating wherever I put it. As an aside, when originally used I decided to insulate it myself with padding which kept the heat-loss down in summer when the kitchen was warm enough. But gonna have to number-crunch, I have a vacumn kettle in the kitchen and nowadays never have the radiator on...but maybe if I put it in the hall it could supplement the radiator which will be on low?

 

[Trainbike46]

Most of the above is already happening

Not nearly to the extend that is needed, unfortunately

 

[DelayRepay]

Johnson's solution is for us all to spend £20 on a new kettle to save £10 a year off our £6000+ bills.

I suspect the words of someone who's never boiled a kettle or paid an electricity bill in his life!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it belongs to the Crown generally.

That's an interesting question. I do know my deeds give the rights to "mines and minerals" under my house to the former landowner, probably now untraceable. Though I think in the UK unlike some countries you nominally only own the land down a certain depth, though I'm not sure what it is!

 

[Gostav]

Johnson's solution is for us all to spend £20 on a new kettle to save £10 a year off our £6000+ bills.

https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1565298102524846080

I almost believed it just a funny video filmed by cosplayer.

 

[yorksrob]

So rather than criticising things done decades ago by people long since passed away and now can't be reversed, let's have some practical suggestions for today's world?

Can't they be reversed, or is it that the people in charge don't want to reverse them ?

 

[DelayRepay]

Can't they be reversed, or is it that the people in charge don't want to reverse them ?

It would cost too much money. If you sell something, and it appreciates in value, then you can't just take it back, you have to buy it back at the market rate. Putin's Russia may be happy to seize privately owned assets, but we shouldn't do that in this country, however distasteful the profits being made from the assets are.

 

[Howardh]

That's an interesting question. I do know my deeds give the rights to "mines and minerals" under my house to the former landowner, probably now untraceable. Though I think in the UK unlike some countries you nominally only own the land down a certain depth, though I'm not sure what it is!

If you keep going down long enough you own a part of a garden in New Zealand! Yes, there must be limits, but those with oil underneath them don't walk away poor. There are a few oil wells in the Weald I understand, what do/did land-owners there recieve...and also those whose land was used for fracking in Lancashire?

 

[najaB]

That's an interesting question. I do know my deeds give the rights to "mines and minerals" under my house to the former landowner, probably now untraceable. Though I think in the UK unlike some countries you nominally only own the land down a certain depth, though I'm not sure what it is!

Then it is good that there's an authoritative answer:

Mineral ownership and licensing
With the exception of oil, gas, coal, gold and silver, mineral rights in Great Britain vest in landowners rather than the state.

Mining and quarrying in the UK

www.gov.uk

And from the linked site:

Oil and gas
The UK Continental Shelf (UKCS) comprises those areas of the seabed and beneath the seabed, beyond territorial waters (12 mile limit), over which the UK exercises sovereign rights of exploration and exploitation of mineral resources (excluding hydrocarbons).

Ownership of oil and gas within the land area of Great Britain was vested in the Crown by the Petroleum (Production) Act 1934. The Continental Shelf Act 1964 applied the provisions of the 1934 Act to the UKCS outside territorial waters.

Legislation and policy: mineral ownership | Planning | MineralsUK

Mineral ownership in the UK: In the UK 'minerals' are defined in Town and Country Planning legislation as: 'all substances in or under land of a kind ordinarily worked for removal by underground or surface working, except that it does not include peat cut for purposes other than for sale.' With...

www2.bgs.ac.uk

 

[Mojo]

So I’ve just checked my account and it seems that I am fixed until October next year - seems a bit perverse if I’m entitled to the support payment as it would reduce my monthly direct debit to under £10.

One of my colleagues said I have to watch out, as apparently companies can get out of fixed rates and move me up to the capped amount; given that when I signed up in October and 2021 I had two options, to fix at a much lower rate for 12 Months, or a higher price for 24 Months, I should hope they don’t back out, as I should be entitled to pay the lower rate surely?

 

[najaB]

One of my colleagues said I have to watch out, as apparently companies can get out of fixed rates and move me up to the capped amount...

Read through the paperwork carefully, any get-out clauses will have to be listed.

 

[tomuk]

So I’ve just checked my account and it seems that I am fixed until October next year - seems a bit perverse if I’m entitled to the support payment as it would reduce my monthly direct debit to under £10.

One of my colleagues said I have to watch out, as apparently companies can get out of fixed rates and move me up to the capped amount; given that when I signed up in October and 2021 I had two options, to fix at a much lower rate for 12 Months, or a higher price for 24 Months, I should hope they don’t back out, as I should be entitled to pay the lower rate surely?

This is one of the issues with giving the payments to end customers, some are more deserving than others. Maybe the cap should be kept to a more reasonable level and the government fill the gap between the wholesale and the retail price.

 

[DelayRepay]

So I’ve just checked my account and it seems that I am fixed until October next year - seems a bit perverse if I’m entitled to the support payment as it would reduce my monthly direct debit to under £10.

The £400 model is pretty crude but could be implemented quickly, which is why I guess they went for it. People who own an empty property that's using virtually no power will get the £400 too.

If you do not need the payment, perhaps you would consider a small donation to the food bank - they will be very busy this winter I am sure.

One of my colleagues said I have to watch out, as apparently companies can get out of fixed rates and move me up to the capped amount; given that when I signed up in October and 2021 I had two options, to fix at a much lower rate for 12 Months, or a higher price for 24 Months, I should hope they don’t back out, as I should be entitled to pay the lower rate surely?

One of my colleagues got stung. For some reason they cancelled their Direct Debit and this is, apparently, a condition of the fixed rate, so they were moved to the price-cap rate. I doubt they can unilaterally refuse to honour the fix, but any small mishap regarding your payments could land you in hot water.

 

[yorksrob]

It would cost too much money. If you sell something, and it appreciates in value, then you can't just take it back, you have to buy it back at the market rate. Putin's Russia may be happy to seize privately owned assets, but we shouldn't do that in this country, however distasteful the profits being made from the assets are.

Is a license the same as an asset ?

Are such licences even provided in perpetuity. Are the terms of the licence reviewed.

During previous conflicts, private assets have been borrowed/taken over by the state. I don't see this crisis as different in that respect.

 

[tomuk]

Is a license the same as an asset ?

Are such licences even provided in perpetuity. Are the terms of the licence reviewed.

During previous conflicts, private assets have been borrowed/taken over by the state. I don't see this crisis as different in that respect.

The companies are taxed, it is currently 65% including the earlier announced rishi not winfall tax.

 

[najaB]

Is a license the same as an asset ?

For accounting purposes, yes.

Are such licences even provided in perpetuity. Are the terms of the licence reviewed.

No, they normally are time-bound. Both in terms of how long the company has to start production, and also how long they can continue to produce. Once issued though, they are rarely changed - this works both for and against the company as they may well pay a lot of money for the licence to what turns out to be a dry field.

 

[Dai Corner]

Johnson's solution is for us all to spend £20 on a new kettle to save £10 a year off our £6000+ bills.

https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1565298102524846080

And build another nuclear power station - Sizewell C. He also talked about long-termism and hoped his successors would think that way in future.

 

[JamesT]

No, they normally are time-bound. Both in terms of how long the company has to start production, and also how long they can continue to produce. Once issued though, they are rarely changed - this works both for and against the company as they may well pay a lot of money for the licence to what turns out to be a dry field.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2004/352/schedule/4/made lists the clauses that would normally be found in one of these contracts, potentially they could run as long as 18 years (and be extended beyond that). So if you wait for them to all time out you might be sorted for oil and gas prices in 2040. It mentions various reasons for revoking, but they all seem to revolve around non-performance of the company actually extracting oil from the location.

https://www.akingump.com/en/experie...icences-in-the-uk-contract-or-regulation.html mentions a court case that has determined these licences are contracts, so the government cannot unilaterally make changes. The current licensees are going to be due compensation for the government breaking a contract, normally that would be to the level that they would have been in had the contract not been broken.

The other question is, having revoked the licences of these companies, who is actually going to be extracting the oil and gas from these fields? There isn't a state oil company to act as the OLR like the railways. You could hire the old companies back on management contracts, but I bet they'll be asking for top rates as you've just stiffed them.

 

[AM9]

And build another nuclear power station - Sizewell C. He also talked about long-termism and hoped his successors would think that way in future.

Johnson the world's greatest chancer pushes for others to have long-term approaches?

 

[Bletchleyite]

And build another nuclear power station - Sizewell C.

Sensible. Now where are the other 4-5 going?

 

[yorksrob]

For accounting purposes, yes.

No, they normally are time-bound. Both in terms of how long the company has to start production, and also how long they can continue to produce. Once issued though, they are rarely changed - this works both for and against the company as they may well pay a lot of money for the licence to what turns out to be a dry field.

Certainly any up for renewal need to be renewed on a very different basis. Also any emergency clauses need to be considered and used where possible.

First refusal on gas and linking the price to production should be Implemented.

 

[JamesT]

They may well have had their problems, but over inflated energy prices presumably wasn't one of them.

Given the Venezuelan inflation rate in July was 137.1%, I doubt a lack of inflation in energy prices would be much help to anyone there.

 

[johncrossley]

Sensible. Now where are the other 4-5 going?

Are the rest of Europe ramping up nuclear/solar/wind etc.? There is a European energy market. It is no good if one country produces a lot of electricity if it still gets sold across Europe at a high price because of a Europewide shortage.

 

[ChrisC]

A friend of mine has her 66th birthday in 2 weeks time and therefore she will now reach the age where she will begin to receive her state pension. I’m just a few weeks younger than her and my 66th birthday and state pension qualifying age is in mid October.

The cut off date for Winter Fuel Payments this year is 25th September and so therefore she will qualify for a 2022-23 Winter Fuel Payment but I will not. It also seems that the same cut off date also applies to any additional support the government has already agreed to give to pensioners this year and probably any other measures which may be announced in the coming weeks. The rising energy cost doesn’t personally concern me too much as I have been managing comfortably on my work pension since retiring 7 years ago and I now will have the additional income from of my state pension.

Just because my birthday is shortly after the qualifying date I will not get the payments that my friend will get, yet we both have to heat our houses and get through this same winter. As pointed out, I will have the money to pay and keep myself warm. There will other people not so fortunate, who retire shortly after 25th September who will not have a good work pension and savings to help them get through this winter, yet will not get any additional help this winter for those of pension age.

 

[najaB]

It is no good if one country produces all the electricity if it still gets sold across Europe at a high price because of a Europewide shortage.

I would think that would be a very good position for the country selling all the electicity!

 

[tomuk]

Are the rest of Europe ramping up nuclear/solar/wind etc.? There is a European energy market. It is no good if one country produces a lot of electricity if it still gets sold across Europe at a high price because of a Europewide shortage.

France are building more nukes. Germany have had a rush of blood to the head and cancelled the closure of their final two nuclear stations and are building\burning more brown coal.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Sep 2022 ==

I would think that would be a very good position for the country selling all the electicity!

As we have been doing since March. Importing LNG, burning it and exporting the electricity.

 

[ainsworth74]

Sensible. Now where are the other 4-5 going?

We'll take one at Hartlepool to replace our ageing AGR reactor please and thank you!

 

[DelayRepay]

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2004/352/schedule/4/made lists the clauses that would normally be found in one of these contracts, potentially they could run as long as 18 years (and be extended beyond that). So if you wait for them to all time out you might be sorted for oil and gas prices in 2040. It mentions various reasons for revoking, but they all seem to revolve around non-performance of the company actually extracting oil from the location.

https://www.akingump.com/en/experie...icences-in-the-uk-contract-or-regulation.html mentions a court case that has determined these licences are contracts, so the government cannot unilaterally make changes. The current licensees are going to be due compensation for the government breaking a contract, normally that would be to the level that they would have been in had the contract not been broken.

The other question is, having revoked the licences of these companies, who is actually going to be extracting the oil and gas from these fields? There isn't a state oil company to act as the OLR like the railways. You could hire the old companies back on management contracts, but I bet they'll be asking for top rates as you've just stiffed them.

There's another problem with the government revoking licenses. It would mean the UK Government could no longer be trusted to honour contracts, which would harm future investment in the UK.

I imagine the Government of the time could have included clauses to protect UK citizens from price shocks, but that would have resulted in the oil companies paying less for the licenses.

The windfall tax on the profits is probably the best the Government can do in the circumstances.

 

[najaB]

Sensible. Now where are the other 4-5 going?

I'd quite happily have one or two up here, but the Scottish Government is against new nuclear. Ordinarily I'd say that is folly of the highest order, but there are a lot of days that we have more wind power than we know what to do with, and we've a lot of untapped waved power as well.

 

[Dai Corner]

I'd quite happily have one or two up here, but the Scottish Government is against new nuclear. Ordinarily I'd say that is folly of the highest order, but there are a lot of days that we have more wind power than we know what to do with, and we've a lot of untapped waved power as well.

For Scotland, more transmission capacity would probably be at least as useful as a nuclear power station.