Energy Efficiency on the Railways - is there a plan?

[modernrail]

The railways obviously use huge amounts of power. How good is NR and prioritising saving cash on this, as well as reducing emissions?

As an example I have just been through the Thameslink core. All the lights are on at the OLD Kings Cross Thameslink station and at at City Thameslink (closed today) the lights are on, the information boards powered up and perhaps most troubling, the escalators are running!

Does the right culture exist within NR on identifying and implementing potential energy savings?

 

[vinnym70]

From an IT perspective, things that rarely get turned off tend not to like it. Whether the removal of power causes component failure, or whether it just needs someone to know what to do when it's first powered up again, it can make things not working as expected often for extended periods of time as support for the issue is sought.

My particular line of business (not railways) leaves everything turned on *ALL THE TIME* for this very reason. So this isn't a railway specific issue.

The most troubling aspect of the above is escalators running which is obviously a huge waste, unless they're new enough to slow down when not in use and resume normal speed when persons approach. Again, the modern philosophy seems to be to power-save rather than turn off outright. (For the detail freaks, if you happen to observe an UP escalator in low power mode and you walk near the top of it, you'll notice it tends to speed up, despite the fact that someone approaching the top of an UP escalator should be ignored; same happens if someone approaches the bottom of a DOWN escalator)

I'm not a fan of leaving things on. It seems lazy and unnecessary. If you turn things off regularly enough, you iron out most of the issues. If you never do it, the issues are potentially stored up for when it inevitably does happen.

 

[ECML125]

What about Class 350s? They have regenerative braking, which puts Electric back into the OHLE.
(Was told about this at Northampton Open Day)

 

[modernrail]

What about Class 350s? They have regenerative braking, which puts Electric back into the OHLE.
(Was told about this at Northampton Open Day)

Sorry, I probably should have said in my intro that I am thinking mainly of power to fixed infrastructure rather than rolling stock. That is because I suspect rolling stock would deserve it's own thread.

That said I find the emerging position on traction power for rolling stock fascinating and after a few lovely days in the badly underserved north (every train I used full and standing) I very much hope that we will see increasingly cost effective solutions to provide non-diesel traction and extra capacity in that region.

My girlfriend experienced her first Pacer during the visit. We are going to get her some counselling to deal with the experience. Her favourite moment was a pram crowd surfing across the passengers so the flustered Dad could get if off the train.

 

[Elecman]

Unless they are one of the Managed Major stations NR Are Not responsible for Stations they belong to the TOCs to manage

 

[modernrail]

Unless they are one of the Managed Major stations NR Are Not responsible for Stations they belong to the TOCs to manage

Let me guess, Thameslink get to claim energy costs from the contract as a pass through and so no incentive on them not to throw our money down the drain.

 

[ABB125]

What really annoys me is seeing all the lights in a station switched on during the day, especially those on the platform. Fair enough having those inside station buildings switched on, but those outdoors on the completely open platform should not be on. (Personally I think that modern station buildings should let in as much natural light as possible (although even in a building completely made of glass I suspect that the lights would be on for "health and safety reasons"), but I believe big windows make it much harder to meet thermal efficiency regulations? Is the potential thermal energy saving worth the potential electrical energy saving?)

 

[broadgage]

I agree that a great deal of electricity is wasted by illumination of stations that are closed long term, closed for the day, or that have ample daylight.
I see no need for significant lighting at closed stations. Much reduced lighting MIGHT be justified for security purposes, a terrorist bomb at a closed station through which trains still run, could still have most serious consequences.
Lighting could be much reduced to the minimum required to get a decent CCTV image.
In areas with daylight, photocells are easily fitted to turn lights out when natural light is ample.
Presence detectors are readily available to extinguish lighting in the absence of movement.

There must be many other examples.
There is no justification for running escalators at closed stations, except for a test of say an hour once a week.

If lighting is used so wastefully, it seems a reasonable assumption that heating and mains water are also wasted on a large scale.

 

[KingDaveRa]

One would presume NR and the TOCs who manage stations will be installing LED lighting at the least. I'm not sure if the rail industry is subject to it, but I understand there's incentives and levies imposed by Govt to reduce carbon emissions (Carbon Credits I think?). I'd imagine they'd be doing something to see a return on this, but it'd probably be pretty basic to begin with as there's likely millions of lights and lamps across the system to gradually replace. Once that's done they'd probably start looking at more intelligent lighting systems to potentially power down when there's nobody around.

Thing is, ultimately it's all business, so if it doesn't produce a return on the balance sheet, they're probably not going to do anything.

 

[Jonny]

Thing is, ultimately it's all business, so if it doesn't produce a return on the balance sheet, they're probably not going to do anything.

LED bulbs, for instance, do pay for themselves in the long run by requiring fewer changes over a given time period (especially helpful if replacement involves working at height) using less electricity. There is an upfront cost, which may lead to changes being done on a stepwise basis.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

GWR seem to have upgraded the station lighting at a number of their managed stations. I have to say it works really well and I think it should be rolled out more widely. There are LED lights throughout, so low energy consumption anyway, and they have proximity sensors so they are constantly on during the dark, but they are dim ordinarily. When movement is detected, the light gradually gets brighter, like as if you're using a dimmer switch.

 

[modernrail]

In terms of capital costs, there is is plenty of money out there at a low rate for things like lighting replacements. Some lighting manufacturers can offer asset finance on lighting at about 5% and the payments sculptured to the savings profile so that NT/the TOC is always in the money.

If you see an asset where they have not even done the lighting, you can almost presume they are allowing lots of wastage elsewhere as lighting is such an easy win, especially as another poster said, where you are accessing vastly reduced maintenance costs. It costs a lot to change light bulbs on the railway in an at hoc manner.

I am aware of a specific problem around franchise terms, so you can't get your lighting asset finance deal unless you have control of the asset for the payback period. I would guess that is about 3-5 years on most railway lighting infrastructure, so you need enough franchise term remaining.

Does NR or any of the TOCs run energy management platforms to properly sub-metre and monitor and optimise energy use? Other industries are starting to use these tools to great effect. The platforms usually pay back very quickly just through spotting ludicrous waste and then open the door to other savings. Keele University has been appointed as the UK National Demonstrator project (the project is called SEND) for those that are interested.

 

[bspahh]

GWR seem to have upgraded the station lighting at a number of their managed stations. I have to say it works really well and I think it should be rolled out more widely. There are LED lights throughout, so low energy consumption anyway, and they have proximity sensors so they are constantly on during the dark, but they are dim ordinarily. When movement is detected, the light gradually gets brighter, like as if you're using a dimmer switch.

Shippea Hill has these. They work well. Its just that they are have lights on all the time on the Westbound platform which has one timetabled request stop a week. https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/new-led-lights-at-shippea-hill.174190/

 

[GreatAuk]

Trying to think about uses of power at stations, I think as others have said putting LED lights in, potentially on movement & daylight sensors / timers seems like it could have a large impact on energy consumption given the number of lights there are at stations!

I wonder if e-paper (like kindle readers) could be used for arrivals screens etc - these would surely use less power than the LCD screens you sometimes see around. I don't know how they'd compare to the orange dot matrix style screens though...

What about Class 350s? They have regenerative braking, which puts Electric back into the OHLE.
(Was told about this at Northampton Open Day)

I think quite a few modern trains are capable of regen braking, but it is not always turned on as it requires approval, and potentially changes to the distribution infrastructure. This should be an easy win, but certain parties such as the DfT are not so keen to allow this to be implemented.

 

[Clip]

Of course if you are just passing through the platforms of a closed station you have absolutley no idea if work is going on and the people there may be on a break or working in an area close by which uses the same bank switch for the lighting and thats why they are on.

 

[ABB125]

I wonder if e-paper (like kindle readers) could be used for arrivals screens etc - these would surely use less power than the LCD screens you sometimes see around. I don't know how they'd compare to the orange dot matrix style screens though...

This sounds quite an interesting idea. Perhaps it deserves one of the industry "innovation" grants (although no doubt it will cost about £33 million for someone to basically build a big Kindle!).

 

[Elecman]

Does NR or any of the TOCs run energy management platforms to properly sub-metre and monitor and optimise energy use? Other industries are starting to use these tools to great effect. The platforms usually pay back very quickly just through spotting ludicrous waste and then open the door to other savings. Keele University has been appointed as the UK National Demonstrator project (the project is called SEND) for those that are interested.

Network Rail certainly has an Energy Management system, and does sub meter usage as required by Building Regulations but those requirements are very granular, and only apply when distribution systems are renewed. It is rolling out energy efficiency improvements as and when cash is available

 

[KingDaveRa]

Other than traction current, I'd assume lighting to be a major consumer of power over the network. I'd guess it pips escalators and lifts due to the sheer quantity of lighting there must be.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

This sounds quite an interesting idea. Perhaps it deserves one of the industry "innovation" grants (although no doubt it will cost about £33 million for someone to basically build a big Kindle!).

Would only work during daylight though (unless in an area illuminated by other lighting).

 

[themiller]

Unless they are one of the Managed Major stations NR Are Not responsible for Stations they belong to the TOCs to manage

That’s not quite right. As Network Rail’s name will be on the title deeds to all of the stations, they cannot hand on their responsibilities to a third party. The TOCs merely manage the stations under contract.

 

[Elecman]

TOCs are responsible for lighting maintenance on thier franchised Stations. It’s in thier lease agreements

 

[theageofthetra]

Sorry, I probably should have said in my intro that I am thinking mainly of power to fixed infrastructure rather than rolling stock. That is because I suspect rolling stock would deserve it's own thread.

That said I find the emerging position on traction power for rolling stock fascinating and after a few lovely days in the badly underserved north (every train I used full and standing) I very much hope that we will see increasingly cost effective solutions to provide non-diesel traction and extra capacity in that region.

My girlfriend experienced her first Pacer during the visit. We are going to get her some counselling to deal with the experience. Her favourite moment was a pram crowd surfing across the passengers so the flustered Dad could get if off the train.

A lot of new LED lights at the stations on routes I sign are at a low level until a train approached then go to full brightness whilst it is at the station.

 

[theageofthetra]

DOO monitors are wasting energy 24hrs a day 7 days a week and other than for maintenance are never off. One advantage of going over to in cab monitors

 

[Bletchleyite]

Other than traction current, I'd assume lighting to be a major consumer of power over the network. I'd guess it pips escalators and lifts due to the sheer quantity of lighting there must be.

Surprised no TOC has fitted photocell controlled lighting to a train yet, Hamburg's U-Bahn trains have had it for over 20 years. That said, LEDs are so low on power consumption that it might not be worth the effort.

 

[Malcolmffc]

Not opening Crossrail and the endless RMT strikes have presumably saved a lot of energy!

 

[edwin_m]

Surprised no TOC has fitted photocell controlled lighting to a train yet, Hamburg's U-Bahn trains have had it for over 20 years. That said, LEDs are so low on power consumption that it might not be worth the effort.

Not a TOC, but Metrolink has them. If you're near the front it's noticeable that it gets a bit dark going under a bridge before the lights kick in, and this might be a bigger problem with faster running on the main line.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not a TOC, but Metrolink has them. If you're near the front it's noticeable that it gets a bit dark going under a bridge before the lights kick in, and this might be a bigger problem with faster running on the main line.

The trams are lit with fluorescent tubes which can't start instantly. With LEDs an instant response to the front cab entering a dark area (and the rear one leaving it) should be entirely feasible, with any kind of failure leading to "on".

 

[InTheEastMids]

TOCs are responsible for lighting maintenance on thier franchised Stations. It’s in thier lease agreements

Highlighting a potential issue... If it's similar to a commercial lease, then the TOC as the tenant would probably pick up the energy bills, whilst NR own the assets. If true, neither party has the incentive to invest in energy efficiency, except where the is a very short payback period or where assets are at end of life.

Surprised nobody has mentioned heating, but then the railway seems to put very low, arguably zero value on comfort so it's not surprising really

 

[DarloRich]

The railways obviously use huge amounts of power. How good is NR and prioritising saving cash on this, as well as reducing emissions?

As an example I have just been through the Thameslink core. All the lights are on at the OLD Kings Cross Thameslink station and at at City Thameslink (closed today) the lights are on, the information boards powered up and perhaps most troubling, the escalators are running!

Does the right culture exist within NR on identifying and implementing potential energy savings?

It doesn't surprise me although it is entirely possible that there are people working inside those closed stations/ using them to access or egress the track. The biggest problem is the fragmented and confusing nature of many contractual relationships on the railway. You would not believe some of the arrangements.

In terms of capital costs, there is is plenty of money out there at a low rate for things like lighting replacements. Some lighting manufacturers can offer asset finance on lighting at about 5% and the payments sculptured to the savings profile so that NT/the TOC is always in the money.

If you see an asset where they have not even done the lighting, you can almost presume they are allowing lots of wastage elsewhere as lighting is such an easy win, especially as another poster said, where you are accessing vastly reduced maintenance costs. It costs a lot to change light bulbs on the railway in an at hoc manner.

None of those schemes can be accessed by Network Rail. Their money comes from the government ( aka you and me) and is delivered in a very structured manner and thourgh a very structured process. Something posters really need to grasp is that the way the railway works and in particular is funded is very different to the real world. It isnt as easy as simply deciding to change the light bulbs. It is easier to do them all at once with the station closed for other work. It will certainly be cheaper. Fancy changing light fittings over 25kv ohle? It is also unlikely a contract would be let station by station. It would be done on a line wide basis.

Lighting might be an "easy win" in an office. It isnt on the railway. To change the light fittings in an office doesn't require complex stakeholder management simply to agree a date to inspect the existing lighting supply! It isnt as easy as simply deciding to buy 3400 Phillips light fittings and whacking them in. I am not saying that is right, simply that is the reality.

I am aware of a specific problem around franchise terms, so you can't get your lighting asset finance deal unless you have control of the asset for the payback period. I would guess that is about 3-5 years on most railway lighting infrastructure, so you need enough franchise term remaining.

I agree that franchising doesn't drive this kind of investment. However, in honesty, I doubt the TOC's care about station utilities bill ( especially in shared areas) unless the bill is SO massive as to be visible from space! Personally I would be trying to screw any value I could out of any contacts I owned!

Does NR or any of the TOCs run energy management platforms to properly sub-metre and monitor and optimise energy use? Other industries are starting to use these tools to great effect. The platforms usually pay back very quickly just through spotting ludicrous waste and then open the door to other savings. Keele University has been appointed as the UK National Demonstrator project (the project is called SEND) for those that are interested.

Yes. These tools are used.

 

[edwin_m]

It doesn't surprise me although it is entirely possible that there are people working inside those closed stations/ using them to access or egress the track. The biggest problem is the fragmented and confusing nature of many contractual relationships on the railway. You would not believe some of the arrangements.



None of those schemes can be accessed by Network Rail. Their money comes from the government ( aka you and me) and is delivered in a very structured manner and thourgh a very structured process. Something posters really need to grasp is that the way the railway works and in particular is funded is very different to the real world. It isnt as easy as simply deciding to change the light bulbs. It is easier to do them all at once with the station closed for other work. It will certainly be cheaper. Fancy changing light fittings over 25kv ohle? It is also unlikely a contract would be let station by station. It would be done on a line wide basis.

Lighting might be an "easy win" in an office. It isnt on the railway. To change the light fittings in an office doesn't require complex stakeholder management simply to agree a date to inspect the existing lighting supply! It isnt as easy as simply deciding to buy 3400 Phillips light fittings and whacking them in. I am not saying that is right, simply that is the reality.



I agree that franchising doesn't drive this kind of investment. However, in honesty, I doubt the TOC's care about station utilities bill ( especially in shared areas) unless the bill is SO massive as to be visible from space! Personally I would be trying to screw any value I could out of any contacts I owned!



Yes. These tools are used.

Or to summarise that post, "how many railway people does it take to change a light bulb?"