End-to-end through services

[Eagle]

Basically I'm referring to those services where a unit works one service, and then a completely different service, and they're shown as a single service. Some results (e.g. Birmingham-Chester-Manchester) can be weirder than others (e.g. Nottingham-Birmingham-Bournemouth).

Is there any rule that says when these are advertised as through services? I thought it would be when there are sensible journeys which would require you to use both bits (so to go from Wrexham to Warrington you'd normally change at Chester, but if you were travelling on the Birmingham-Manchester oddball you'd have to change from the train onto itself, so it's less confusing to just list it as a through service). But it doesn't always seem to be the case.

Example: Virgin's London-Birmingham-Scotland services are advertised as through on summer holiday weekdays only, but they definitely exist at other times. A Saturday in February I was travelling Coventry to Cheltenham and I took the Pendolino to New Street. The departure board said New Street, the internal and external screens all said New Street, and when it arrived the announcement was "The train now standing at platform 3 terminates here; this is the service from London Euston."

And then, no more than a minute later, "Platform 3 for the 10.20 Virgin Pendolino service to Edinburgh." What? Why don't they advertise this as a through service? If I'd been going Coventry-Preston that day I'd've had to get back on the train I'd just disembarked. Same's true of pretty much any pair of stations on the route (barring London-Edinburgh itself; although if you're going to Edinburgh and turn up at Euston rather than King's Cross you deserve to be made late by taking this service ).

Is there any actual policy on when to call these kinds of services through services?

 

[Class172]

Central trains had a habit of merging services

 

[Yew]

There is a Worksop to Lincoln service via notitngham on weekdays, same 156+153 combo, goes all the way through (and is signed as such) but has a change of guards (drivers too?) at nottingham

 

[Welshman]

Central trains had a habit of merging services

They certainly did.
Skegness-Nottingham - Birmingham-Cardiff
Aberystwyth-Birmingham-Nottingham-Skegness.

being two examples.

Not for nothing were they originally known as the "Yarmouth to Barmouth" Railway!

 

[sonic2009]

They certainly did.
Skegness-Nottingham - Birmingham-Cardiff
Aberystwyth-Birmingham-Nottingham-Skegness.

being two examples.

Not for nothing were they originally known as the "Yarmouth to Barmouth" Railway!

Was there not a one time a Hereford-Grimsby Town Service?

 

[FGWman]

There is a through service from Banbury from Worcester. Its really a Banbury to Oxford local combined with Oxford to Worcester Local. The benefit to the TOC is that if the unit fails it only counts as one cancellation.

 

[sonic2009]

There is a through service from Banbury from Worcester. Its really a Banbury to Oxford local combined with Oxford to Worcester Local. The benefit to the TOC is that if the unit fails it only counts as one cancellation.

That's most probably something to do with Chiltern taking over Bicester? Didn't the unit used to run from Bicester to Oxford as one service, have a break then run up to Worcester?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Aberystwyth-Birmingham-Nottingham-Skegness.

That sounds a most idealistic journey for the real rail enthusiast

Would you need to bring "iron rations" with you on this journey?

 

[Eagle]

I'm sure there are loads run by Northern. IIRC there's a Lincoln-Sheffield-Doncaster-Scunthorpe, and it's pretty regular.

The 0910 LM arrival into Liverpool Lime Street started life as a Walsall-Birmingham stopper, and likewise the 0943 arrival from Birmingham International.

In Greatwesternland there's a couple of Cheltenham-Swindon-Melksham-Southamptons, and I think there might be a Swindon-Worcester at the end of the day.

 

[Donny Dave]

I'm sure there are loads run by Northern. IIRC there's a Lincoln-Sheffield-Doncaster-Scunthorpe, and it's pretty regular.

Other way round. It's Scunthorpe - Lincoln via Sheffied, and runs every hour. In the opposite direction, it's Lincoln - Adwick via Sheffield.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Basically I'm referring to those services where a unit works one service, and then a completely different service, and they're shown as a single service. Some results (e.g. Birmingham-Chester-Manchester) can be weirder than others (e.g. Nottingham-Birmingham-Bournemouth)....

The units on Northern's Liverpool Lime Street-Manchester Victoria services are mostly used to run Manchester Victoria-Stalybridge, the same applies the other way round. In some cases the unit doesn't form the Stalybridge train (even thought the timing is the same) and returns to Liverpool. A couple go through to Huddersfield also. Those that go through are advertised as through services though.

....Is there any actual policy on when to call these kinds of services through services?

I would imagine where two services form a longer journey for which a quicker service runs, they will be advertised seperately to avoid confusion or unneccesary delay.

 

[me123]

Do you mean like the Aberdeen-Kyle of Lochalsh service that used to run? Or the SuO Glasgow Queen Street-Elgin? Not very many examples up here.

How about the Glasgow Central-Newcastle runs. They are advertised as the one service and share a headcode, but are crewed by Scotrail to Carlisle and then Northern staff take it on to Newcastle.

 

[GNERman]

I'm sure there are loads run by Northern. IIRC there's a Lincoln-Sheffield-Doncaster-Scunthorpe, and it's pretty regular.

There's a weekday Northern Lincoln to Hull via Sheffield, Doncaster and Goole that must be the merging of a Lincoln Sheffield and Sheffield Hull. For such a long journey its normally a 153...

 

[Smethwickian]

I've travelled quite a few times on the Saturday 0653 "Birmingham New Street to Northampton" which about 19 times out of 20 has continued as the 0805 Northampton to London Euston. Usually the staff check this is due to happen and helpfully make a suitable announcement, despite all the automatic indicators insisting the train terminates, until the crew changes and they are re-set.

Just once did it arrive other than at platform 1 and I've had to change. Presumably by not advertising it as a through service London Midland is reserving the right to swap stock around or whatever, without having to terminate the service unexpectedly or have it classed as cancelled.

 

[tbtc]

There's been a few "add on" routes in Yorkshire. The obvious example is the Selby - Wakefield service (via Leeds, Bradford, Halifax and Huddersfield). There used to be a Leeds - Sheffield service via Huddersfield and Penistone (does it still run?)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh, and the old Virgin Trains Derby - Manchester service (via Birmingham) is worth a mention too...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There's a weekday Northern Lincoln to Hull via Sheffield, Doncaster and Goole that must be the merging of a Lincoln Sheffield and Sheffield Hull. For such a long journey its normally a 153...

I wonder what the loading are on this service. I am surprised to hear a Class 153 runs this service.

 

[mumrar]

XC have a weekday 07:10 Gloucester-Birmingham-Stansted service.

 

[RochdalePioneers]

This is nothing new! When I was a nipper there was a 304 that worked through from Altrincham - Walsall. Used to get on at Stockport where it went all stations to Stoke, then all stations to [stn]BHM[/stn], then on to Walsall where we'd get off either at Duddeston or Bescot.

 

[Masbroughlad]

This is nothing new! When I was a nipper there was a 304 that worked through from Altrincham - Walsall. Used to get on at Stockport where it went all stations to Stoke, then all stations to BNS, then on to Walsall where we'd get off either at Duddeston or Bescot.

Bit of an aside, but did there used to be Manchester to Birmingham 'stoppers' as well as intercity services in the past?

 

[tbtc]

I wonder what the loading are on this service. I am surpised to hear a Class 153 runs this service.

There are 153s regularly on the Scunthorpe - Sheffield - Lincoln service (they use this to position "fresh" 153s on the Barton shuttle, with the previous day's Barton unit staying on the S-L-A for most of the next day).

Given that the bulk of services on this busy route are 142s, its not *that* different.

 

[route:oxford]

Do you mean like the Aberdeen-Kyle of Lochalsh service that used to run? Or the SuO Glasgow Queen Street-Elgin? Not very many examples up here.

Glasgow Queen Street to Elgin service used to run daily (or at least every weekday).

I used it regularily in 96/97 when I missed the 17:28 Aberdeen train.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This is nothing new! When I was a nipper there was a 304 that worked through from Altrincham - Walsall. Used to get on at Stockport where it went all stations to Stoke, then all stations to BNS, then on to Walsall where we'd get off either at Duddeston or Bescot.

In my trusty copy of the 1981/1982 BR timetables, on table 81,it shows that there was a Saturdays only journey as follows:-

Altrincham dep. 1850.

This stopped at Navigation Road, Timperley, Brooklands, Sale, Dane Road, Stretford, Warwick Road, Old Trafford, Deansgate, Manchester Oxford Road, Manchester Piccadilly, Levenshulme, Heaton Chapel, Stockport, Cheadle Hulme, Bramhall, Poynton, Adlington, Prestbury, Macclesfield, Congleton, Kidsgrove, Longport, Etruria, Stoke on Trent,Wedgewood, Barlaston, Stone

Stafford arr. 2044.

Even this train did NOT stop at Norton Bridge:cry:

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Bit of an aside, but did there used to be Manchester to Birmingham 'stoppers' as well as intercity services in the past?

There most certainly were, run by Class 304 units. In the BR 1981/2 timetable, I found one as soon as I looked and was a rush-hour morning train. This is from the Monday to Saturday section.

Birmingham New Street........................0714 dep
Smethwick Rolfe Street.......................0720
Oldbury.............................................0724
Dudley Port.......................................0727
Tipton..............................................0730
Coseley............................................0733
Wolverhampton..................................0738 arr 0739 dep
Penkridge..........................................0749
Stafford............................................0756 arr 0757 dep
Norton Bridge.....................................0804
Stone...............................................0810
Batlaston..........................................0815
Wedgwood........................................0817
Stoke on Trent..................................0823 arr 0827 dep
Etruria..............................................0830
Longport...........................................0833
Kidsgrove..........................................0839
Congleton.........................................0846
Macclesfield......................................0855
Prestbury.........................................0859
Adlington..........................................0902
Poynton...........................................0906
Bramhall...........................................0909
Cheadle Hulme...................................0912
Stockport.........................................0916 arr 0917 dep
Manchester Piccadilly..........................0924 arr

It even stopped at NORTON BRIDGE

 

[43167]

There most certainly were, run by Class 304 units. In the BR 1981/2 timetable, I found one as soon as I looked and was a rush-hour morning train. This is from the Monday to Saturday section.

Birmingham New Street........................0714 dep
Smethwick Rolfe Street.......................0720
Oldbury.............................................0724
Dudley Port.......................................0727
Tipton..............................................0730
Coseley............................................0733
Wolverhampton..................................0738 arr 0739 dep
Penkridge..........................................0749
Stafford............................................0756 arr 0757 dep
Norton Bridge.....................................0804
Stone...............................................0810
Batlaston..........................................0815
Wedgwood........................................0817
Stoke on Trent..................................0823 arr 0827 dep
Etruria..............................................0830
Longport...........................................0833
Kidsgrove..........................................0839
Congleton.........................................0846
Macclesfield......................................0855
Prestbury.........................................0859
Adlington..........................................0902
Poynton...........................................0906
Bramhall...........................................0909
Cheadle Hulme...................................0912
Stockport.........................................0916 arr 0917 dep
Manchester Piccadilly..........................0924 arr

It even stopped at NORTON BRIDGE

They should have gone for the full set and included Heaton Chapel and Levishulme.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Good to see no slack between Stockport and Piccadilly!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

They should have gone for the full set and included Heaton Chapel and Levishulme.

I think that you mean Levenshulme. These two stations could not be served, being on the slow lines, as there was already a stopping train calling at both of these two stations in exactly the same time as this train would have done. The train that I described ran on the middle-section FAST LINES from Stockport, having been at platform 3, past these two stations to enable a following local all-stops train to be allowed to use these two stations.

People on the train from Birmingham who wanted to connect with them would have changed at Stockport on the train that departed from platform 4, two minutes AFTER the train from Birmingham left Stockport

 

[43167]

There's been a few "add on" routes in Yorkshire. The obvious example is the Selby - Wakefield service (via Leeds, Bradford, Halifax and Huddersfield). There used to be a Leeds - Sheffield service via Huddersfield and Penistone (does it still run?)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oh, and the old Virgin Trains Derby - Manchester service (via Birmingham) is worth a mention too...

Yes it still runs. departs Leeds around 1710.

I think there used to be a Edinburgh or Glasgow to Derby via New St aswell late in the evening.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think that you mean Levenshulme. These two stations could not be served, being on the slow lines, as there was already a stopping train calling at both of these two stations in exactly the same time as this train would have done. The train that I described ran on the middle-section FAST LINES from Stockport, having been at platform 3, past these two stations to enable a following local all-stops train to be allowed to use these two stations.

People on the train from Birmingham who wanted to connect with them would have changed at Stockport on the train that departed from platform 4, two minutes AFTER the train from Birmingham left Stockport

haha. Thats it. thanks.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

If the BHM-MAN train left SPT two minutes before the stopper did, how could it have passed HTC / LVM at the same time?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If the BHM-MAN train left SPT two minutes before the stopper did, how could it have passed HTC / LVM at the same time?

There was a PREVIOUS train that was passed that had stops to make at Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme that departed three minutes earlier from Stockport and that is why the train from Birmingham would have offered the change facilities at Stockport as stated im my earlier thread.

I did not say it was the train on platform 4....that would have been a physical impossibitlity. There were always short headway rush-hour trains between Stockport and Manchester 30 years ago.

On the question of "age", did you see that on the "Birthdays" thread on the Quiz forum, by use of the American date system, I came up with a steam locomotive for you? I m amazed that we share the same birthday...the only difference being that I am 50 years older than you.

 

[tbtc]

Yes it still runs. departs Leeds around 1710

Cheers. I used to commute from Sheffield to Leeds daily, and in the evening I was often tempted by the Northern Spirit/ ATN/ Northern Rail service "the long way" via Penistone (but I never did do it)... much more scenic than standing on a Voyager anyhow