End of Third rail?

[ainsworth74]

Out of interest how many 142s can run in multiple? I know 2 can, but are any more than that permitted?

I have a feeling you can have up to 6 cabs in a formation so a total of 3 units maximum.

Edit: Actually thinking about it that might be to do with the maximum number of Sprinters that can run together rather than Pacers.

 

[Fincra5]

It would be possible to build OHLE whilst 3rd rail is in place, I see no reason why It couldn't. Of course the biggest expense will the be shear number of Bridges that are too low for OHLE.

 

[Domeyhead]

Like millions of people who stand on platforms every day a lot closer to overhead lines than the third rail below I would be rather worried about these "shorting issues" if they existed.
Third rail pickups support 100mph running and have done for years on the south western main line but it would not be economical to lift line speeds on suburban routes - it is not a question of technology or power but cost and profit. The number of overbridges in south London would prevent any switch to OHL and even if they didn't the existing investment in stock and signalling systems would make any switch prhohibitive. We're stuck with third rail for all its faults so let's make the most of it.

 

[Failed Unit]

It would be possible to build OHLE whilst 3rd rail is in place, I see no reason why It couldn't. Of course the biggest expense will the be shear number of Bridges that are too low for OHLE.

Wasn't the north London line until recently both voltages so the 313s didn't need to switch and the 90s could run.

 

[swt_passenger]

What about FCC's Class 313s when they run into Drayton Park on the way into Moorgate, the 3rd rail pickup shoes don't retract as far as I know as there is both AC and DC from Drayton Park as far as Highbury and Islington.

I've read somewhere that the OHLE south of Drayton Park isn't energised, it is there for protection in case a train overruns without dropping the pan, ie it prevents a pan being ripped off on the tunnel roof if the driver makes a mistake.

If a pan rises too high if a unit is misrouted off the wires there's normally an auto dropping device that protects it, but this wouldn't necessarily work in a tunnel.

 

[T163R]

OHL will defigure the prettyness of the Southern region IMO...

 

[Lampshade]

Out of interest how many 142s can run in multiple? I know 2 can, but are any more than that permitted?
I can see any form of re- electrification being expensive and subject to intense criticism.

I saw 4x142 pull into Piccadilly one evening hock:

 

[wessex]

OHL will defigure the prettyness of the Southern region IMO...

agreed it might be what is needed for the future of rail services, but it wont be pleasing to the eye, and it will be another case of not in my back yard for many

 

[radamfi]

Is the Swiss countryside ruined by overhead wires?

 

[T163R]

Is the Swiss countryside ruined by overhead wires?

In some places, yes.

 

[Tomnick]

Wasn't the north London line until recently both voltages so the 313s didn't need to switch and the 90s could run.

Until fairly recently, a unit off Richmond would start on DC, change to AC at Acton Central and back to DC at Camden Road (no AC on the No. 2 lines (??) from there). I'm sure I read that they changed to AC at Dalston and back to DC at Hackney Wick, even with third-rail and OHLE throughout that section (believe the third rail's gone now though).

Nowadays, I understand they only use DC between Richmond and Acton Central.

 

[ainsworth74]

Is the Swiss countryside ruined by overhead wires?

Or for that matter the Northern ends of the WCML and ECML? I don't buy the argument that OHLE somehow 'disfigures' the landscape it's placed in so much so that it's a valid reason for not installing OHLE.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm sure I read that they changed to AC at Dalston and back to DC at Hackney Wick, even with third-rail and OHLE throughout that section (believe the third rail's gone now though).

I believe from discussions in uk.railway some years ago that was because the maximum current they could draw from the third rail on that section was fairly limited, and you are definitely right about it no longer being there. I think the third rail was removed around the time the new platforms opened at Stratford?

 

[David Dunning]

Or for that matter the Northern ends of the WCML and ECML? I don't buy the argument that OHLE somehow 'disfigures' the landscape it's placed in so much so that it's a valid reason for not installing OHLE.

It may not be a valid reason for not going ahead with overheads but it's still a sensitive issue . In York station for example one overhead span was installed inside the main station shed for about a year before the rest was done . I think they wanted to see what reaction there was to the look of it. No one noticed it (or at least no one said it ruined the look of the station).
The wiring of York was very well done (looks wise)
Also Durham and Berwick viaducts were carefully wired with something called an Ove Arp design if my memory serves me well . Some conservationists wanted 3rd rail over these to preserve the look of them.
So it is controversial sometimes

 

[radamfi]

Overhead wires are not necessarily permanent. If future technology renders them redundant then they can be removed without significant permanent damage to the countryside.

 

[WestCoast]

I really don't mind the look of OHLE, it's subjective, but to me it doesn't cause that much visual pollution.

Mind you, I am the type that quite likes Wind Farms!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Am are correct in thinking the only reason that the Brighton Main Line is third rail is because in the early 1910s, they were going for OHLE, but they had to source it from Berlin?

 

[ushawk]

Dont really get why it should be replaced. Third rail only isnt good in really cold conditions when the rail covers in ice, but then OHLE can get icicles on it, damaging a panto when they hit it. I think NR are better off spending money on areas which need electrification (if they need ideas for places, then theres several topics on here for them to look at).

 

[Crossover]

Out of interest how many 142s can run in multiple? I know 2 can, but are any more than that permitted?

From reading another thread, I am led to believe you can have up to 8 cabs in multiple on 14x units and 12 cabs in multiple on 15x units

I saw 4x142 pull into Piccadilly one evening hock:

Which makes sense from this

 

[radamfi]

Dont really get why it should be replaced. Third rail only isnt good in really cold conditions when the rail covers in ice, but then OHLE can get icicles on it, damaging a panto when they hit it. I think NR are better off spending money on areas which need electrification (if they need ideas for places, then theres several topics on here for them to look at).

The argument is not about performance in winter, but whether it is worth installing overhead wires to improve capacity. But yes, I can't see the third rail being replaced until the vast majority of the country has been electrified, otherwise the political fallout from such a scheme would be too great.

 

[T163R]

Third rail only isnt good in really cold conditions when the rail covers in ice,

Well this point keeps improving !

 

[radamfi]

Am are correct in thinking the only reason that the Brighton Main Line is third rail is because in the early 1910s, they were going for OHLE, but they had to source it from Berlin?

Wikipedia says it was electrified with overhead wires between Croydon and London but thanks to the 1923 Grouping the Southern Railway decided to standardise on third rail so it was removed.

 

[swt_passenger]

Am are correct in thinking the only reason that the Brighton Main Line is third rail is because in the early 1910s, they were going for OHLE, but they had to source it from Berlin?

The decision to standardise on third rail goes back to the grouping as the Southern Region in 1923.

It is generally believed that the SR's management were mainly ex LSWR, so they decided to standardise on the arrangement they were already familiar with, but the LBSC overhead system was still operational as late as 1929.

Some dates given in the first couple of pages here, they don't mention any problems with resourcing hte equipment though:

http://www.emus.co.uk/zone/southern/southern1.htm

 

[route:oxford]

If an when it does happen, it's unlikely to happen overnight.

I'd imagine that Waterloo-Southampton would be a good starting point. Get the knitting up between Basingstoke and Reading (in conjunction with the GWML project) then Oxford to Coventry.

Suddenly that means Goods can be moved economically from Southampton to the Midlands and beyond using electric traction.

Switch Manchester-Reading/Southampton services back to the WC operator and run the short Pendolinos on those services too.

 

[swt_passenger]

If an when it does happen, it's unlikely to happen overnight.

...I'd imagine that Waterloo-Southampton would be a good starting point.

But that's what is so difficult.

What about all the other routes that overlap with that route?

There's Waterloo to Woking, Portsmouth, Alton, Basingstoke. It's a four track railway as far as Basingstoke so are you going to do both fast and slow lines, or are you going to have two separate systems for 50 miles? If you do the slow lines are you going to use dual voltage trains on the loop via Kingston? What about Chessington, Dorking via Epsom etc? There's Southern and SWT local services in the Southampton area too, so is the Southampton area to be dual voltage throughout - and of course most Southampton trains go to Weymouth or Poole so they'll all need to be dual voltage.

But if you are going to electrify to Southampton with OHLE to help out XC, why not go all the way to Bournemouth like XC services from Manchester do - it's the Newcastles that go to Southampton - but they need to be diesel for north east of BHM...

What are you going to replace WCML Pendolinos with - assuming the DfT allow them to go off the route they were bought for?

 

[radamfi]

What are you going to replace WCML Pendolinos with - assuming the DfT allow them to go off the route they were bought for?

After HS2 is operational, the WCML will presumably require less Pendolinos than now. They may have been replaced by new EMUs by the time the third rail gets converted.

 

[377Southern]

3rd rail to replaced in particular on the VIC - BTN route would prove challenging at some points. Clapham for instance would just be a sea of overhead lines, the many tunnels on the line which are best only for 3rd rail and the cost of doing so would be ridicolous. Just leave it the way it is. Overhead lines also have their problems as seen on the ECML which has had many problems over the years with lines coming down and breaking....etc...

 

[IanXC]

Given the new standard of all line side equipment, bridges and such being compatible with OHLE, over a number (well quite a number) of years the cost of making the conversion will gradually fall. There will come a time when the benefits outway the costs, and I think this is the point at which the switchover should take place. Probably a long long way off though.

 

[route:oxford]

But if you are going to electrify to Southampton with OHLE to help out XC, why not go all the way to Bournemouth like XC services from Manchester do - it's the Newcastles that go to Southampton - but they need to be diesel for north east of BHM...

What are you going to replace WCML Pendolinos with - assuming the DfT allow them to go off the route they were bought for?

Nope, I'm doing it to permit movement of goods by electric traction from one of the UKs largerst dockyards.

Transferring Manchester to Southampton to the WC franchise was merely a happy consequence. I'm happy, right now, to sanction wiring all the way to Poole if that helps you.

There's no use playing the accountant with Excel knowing that "something must be done", without understanding you must make a start somewhere.