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End of SWT Franchise?

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First class

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The Mem had the e-mail from EMT this morning stating they are unaffected by this matter. Looks like i better get a bit more free travel in on the current SWT area.

As an aside i wonder how this affects the SWT/NR Alliance?

The alliance has already been abandoned over "costs" issues a few weeks/months back.

I suspect EMT will be going the same way as SWT unless DfT suddenly decides to dramatically increase the management fees etc (doubtful!)

Stagecoach can't really comment on the future of the EMT franchise because it would affect the share price, probably negatively.
 
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infobleep

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Yes but it disrupts the carefully crafted refranchising timetable.
It will now clash with ICWC and West Midlands rebids.
It will also delay further improvements on SWT beyond that already agreed.
How will it delay further improvements. Surely if they issue a new franchise it will include scope for improvements in the future as it will last longer than a direct award, assuming the direct award was due to be longer than the franchise agreement.

I'd love to know what the financial differences were. Was it to do with passenger numbers and growth?

South West Trains mainlines and metro lines are very busy in the morning and evening peaks and beyond train lengthening there isn't a massive amount that can be done about this right now.

Thus I can't see how South West Trains could increase passenger numbers massively without infrastructure changes. They could try and increase passenger numbers outside of the peaks and perhaps grew the leisure market. I was on the 20.44 stopping service to Woking last night from Surbiton and it wasn't that busy.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This misguided perception you alluded to seems to have arise because SWT has commuters that complain more than any other franchise on Twitter (possibly because of their operating area). Compared to pre-Stagecoach the service is light years better, their trains are some of the best turned out in the country and their partnership with Network Rail seems to be paying dividends too. I for one would rather maintain the status quo. The only issue is their fares which are much higher than comparable ones on Southern for example.
The fares on South West Trains are higher than Southern or First Great Western on the North Downs Line but do they provide a more reliable service than Southern and First Great Western on the North Downs Line.

The communication wasn't so great this morning during the train delays and it doesn't help that people living in flats beside Woking station can insist on manual announcements not being heard to the point of them being pointless to make.

However they are better than the other two and they do seem to care and want to improve things. Was it not South West Trains who wanted a long franchise some years ago so they could make changes at Clapham Junction but we're told no?

There are things I'd like to change about the franchise but most of them involve infrastructure changes between Surbiton and Clapham Junction. That will happen eventually. I think the process for cross rail 2 being built should have started sooner but that's not South West Trains fault.

They could put up more posters telling you which trains are busy. Only some stations have this. Use to be a poster on platform 9 at Clapham Junction but it got removed. However these are minor points.

I personally want to see them win the next award.

At least we have journey check and it's mostly updated. First Great Western have journey check and don't updated it as well as South West Trains do. Southern don't have it at all.
 

Helvellyn

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I'd love to know what the financial differences were. Was it to do with passenger numbers and growth?

South West Trains mainlines and metro lines are very busy in the morning and evening peaks and beyond train lengthening there isn't a massive amount that can be done about this right now.

Thus I can't see how South West Trains could increase passenger numbers massively without infrastructure changes. They could try and increase passenger numbers outside of the peaks and perhaps grew the leisure market. I was on the 20.44 stopping service to Woking last night from Surbiton and it wasn't that busy.
Waterloo is due for a partial closure in Summer 2017 to allow the rebuilding of platforms 1-4 to take 10-car trains. The Class 707 units also start coming online in 2017. I'm sure some Drivers said their new Driver Advisory System goes live around that time too. So a lot of investment is planned for 2017, along with disruption. Maybe DfT were not wanting to factor this into a Direct Award for two years, viewing it as business as usual? Maybe better to have a new franchise where the payments will start lower.

One thing is for sure - if there is a new operator in 2017 they will be taking things over during an interesting time!
 

infobleep

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Official statistics don't tell the whole story, partly because they're fudged by the industry and partly because the timetables are defined by the industry to suit the fudged statistics. If you use real-world data then a different story, more in line with customer experience, emerges. Here's a typical commute (times from RTT):

2C18 08:02 BCE-SNS
Tue 30 Jun, 2L BCE, 2L SNS
Wed 1 Jul, 3L BCE, 6L SNS
Thu 2 Jul, 3L BCE, 3L SNS
Fri 3 Jul, 2L BCE, 2L SNS
Mon 6 Jul, 2L BCE, 2L SNS
Tue 7 Jul, 3L BCE, 5L SNS

2S18 08:33 SNS-AFS
Tue 30 Jun, 1L SNS, 1L AFS
Wed 1 Jul, 5L SNS, 5L AFS
Thu 2 Jul, 2L SNS, 2L AFS
Fri 3 Jul, 2L SNS, 2L AFS
Mon 6 Jul, 2L SNS, 2L AFS
Tue 7 Jul, 5L SNS, 5L AFS

2C91 17:07 AFS-BCE
Tue 30 Jun, 8L AFS, 16L BCE [1]
Wed 1 Jul, didn't run [2]
Thu 2 Jul, 1L AFS, 1L BCE
Fri 3 Jul, 1L AFS, 6L BCE
Mon 6 Jul, 6L AFS, 6L BCE

[1] This is misleading as it was so late it ran fast ACT-RDG and customers were dumped at ACT to wait for the following train, eventually arriving 24L BCE.

[2] Ran fast CLJ-VIR so there was no service

In other words, every train was late or didn't arrive.

To this can be added the late-notice cancellation of the 1st May 06:50 BCE-RDG which caused me to miss a connection and pay for a taxi instead of the planned bus to arrive at my meeting on time.

And the twice recently when SWT ran no trains at all for the above commute during the evening peak, meaning that I had to drive thirty miles to collect someone. What did SWT do on those two occasions? Did it provide good customer service by giving useful information and arranging alternative transport? No, it did absolutely nothing.

And finally, SWT takes two months to reply to emails; not that the reply says anything helpful.

Perhaps one can see why I hope that another company will take over this franchise; a company that will run a reliable service and, when things go wrong, provide excellent customer service.
Whilst that may be your experience, I would argue Southern are even worse.

The grass is definitely not greener but it is cheaper. I can't see Govia reducing the prices though if they won, just the quality of direction from upon high.
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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How will it delay further improvements. Surely if they issue a new franchise it will include scope for improvements in the future as it will last longer than a direct award, assuming the direct award was due to be longer than the franchise agreement.

Well, there will be a 2-year hiatus while the new franchise is rebid and contracted.
At the same time DfT has put back the competitions for West Coast by 6 months, and for West Midlands by 3 months, to make room for the South Western competition.
More marking time in those franchises (ie no new trains ordered).
A direct SWT award for 5 years to 2019 would have kept everything on track.
 

HarleyDavidson

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This misguided perception you alluded to seems to have arise because SWT has commuters that complain more than any other franchise on Twitter (possibly because of their operating area). Compared to pre-Stagecoach the service is light years better, their trains are some of the best turned out in the country and their partnership with Network Rail seems to be paying dividends too. I for one would rather maintain the status quo. The only issue is their fares which are much higher than comparable ones on Southern for example.

When you know what you're on about come back and let us know.

TOCs with the most NEGATIVE TWEETS.

1. Greater Anglia
2. First Great Western
3. Southern Railway
4. South West Trains
5. Virgin Trains
6. South Eastern Railway
7. London Midland
8. TL Rail
9. East Coast
10. C2C
11. East Midlands Trains
12. GN Rail
13. Chiltern Railway

Stats from CommuteLondon.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Waterloo is due for a partial closure in Summer 2017 to allow the rebuilding of platforms 1-4 to take 10-car trains. The Class 707 units also start coming online in 2017. I'm sure some Drivers said their new Driver Advisory System goes live around that time too. So a lot of investment is planned for 2017, along with disruption. Maybe DfT were not wanting to factor this into a Direct Award for two years, viewing it as business as usual? Maybe better to have a new franchise where the payments will start lower.

One thing is for sure - if there is a new operator in 2017 they will be taking things over during an interesting time!

The use of DAS is currently banned by ASLEF. And TBQH I don't need it anyway, I know most of the timings "off pat" & have them memorised so to me it's a pointless bit of kit that will serve quite nicely as a carrier bag holder as it will be covered up.
 

Simon11

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When you know what you're on about come back and let us know.

TOCs with the most NEGATIVE TWEETS.

1. Greater Anglia
2. First Great Western
3. Southern Railway
4. South West Trains
5. Virgin Trains
6. South Eastern Railway
7. London Midland
8. TL Rail
9. East Coast
10. C2C
11. East Midlands Trains
12. GN Rail
13. Chiltern Railway

Stats from CommuteLondon.

I don't quite understand how GN Rail could ever possibly be in only 12th place!

The tweets should be based on per passenger travelled (ideally by type of pax), to reflect TOC's which carry more passengers.
 

High Dyke

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The alliance has already been abandoned over "costs" issues a few weeks/months back.
Does "being reshaped" mean abandonment?

Q.
Will there still be an alliance?
A.
Yes – the current intention is that we will have a revised alliance that we want to focus specifically on a number of areas where we feel it will continue to offer benefits to customers. We are seeking to retain the spirit of working in partnership, through a simpler, less complex arrangement. Under the new‐look alliance, we are in discussions to retain the key joint teams that have achieved so much over the past three years. That includes the Wessex Integrated Control Centre, the one station team at London Waterloo, as well as the integrated capacity and planning teams and the joint performance team.
 

SpacePhoenix

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Is the Island Line a proper part of the SWT franchise or is it technically a separate franchise?
 

Kite159

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I don't quite understand how GN Rail could ever possibly be in only 12th place!

The tweets should be based on per passenger travelled (ideally by type of pax), to reflect TOC's which carry more passengers.

Agreed, would be more useful.

----

Govia 'London South Western' here we come ;)
 

Stats

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The West Coast and West Midlands dates have gone back somewhat to compensate.
South Western, West Coast and West Midlands will all be rebidding at much the same time next year.
I think Aug 2017 is the contract end date of the current SWT franchise if DfT exercises all the options. They obviously don't plan to.
It also looks as though DfT has extended the VT contract by 6 months to September 2017, and LM's by 3 months to October 2017.
I am not convinced that the movement of the IC West Coast franchise timetable is entirely down to having to bring forward the SWT tender timetable. They could have left ICWC schedule as was and it would have given a much more even spacing between the SW, WM and ICWC tenders than the new schedule. It seems to me that they want to issue the OJEU notice for ICWC at the same time as the WM franchise, possibly due to potential remapping between the two franchises. The two franchise tenders have then been slightly delayed further by having to accommodate the SW franchise tender.
 

HH

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SWT's trains should be more on time, since they stuffed the timetable in the previous franchise. If they get a good run you can spend quite some time sitting at, or outside, stations.
 

HarleyDavidson

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Agreed, would be more useful.

----

Govia 'London South Western' here we come ;)

Guards better hope not, otherwise there will be a lot of redundancies. Because you can almost guarantee that they'll want the SW franchise to follow the TGSN one and be mostly DOO-P, which I most certainly don't want and nor do the passengers either who've made it known that they prefer to have a guards presence on the train.
 

Starmill

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ITT will be fun. If they want 50% DOO in NORTHREN for God's sake, you're going to be butchered! Hm... :/
 

Morgsie

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I am really concerned by this as if Stagecoach fails to regain the new Franchise then one of the longest serving TOC's will cease as Stagecoach have run SWT since the Privatisation era
 

theironroad

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Who knows. Maybe this is the beginning of the break up of the existing franchise.

A lot of the metro stuff could go to tfl rail, part of london overground.

Great western could pick up some of the longer distance stuff.

There are some routes that would be more problematic to place
 

cjmillsnun

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Can't come soon enough. Perhaps we'll then get a company which can run a reliable train service with a customer focus.

Like?

TBF of all the 3rd rail franchises, SWT is by far the best run, is the most passenger focussed and is the most reliable.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This misguided perception you alluded to seems to have arise because SWT has commuters that complain more than any other franchise on Twitter (possibly because of their operating area). Compared to pre-Stagecoach the service is light years better, their trains are some of the best turned out in the country and their partnership with Network Rail seems to be paying dividends too. I for one would rather maintain the status quo. The only issue is their fares which are much higher than comparable ones on Southern for example.

Compared to pre Stagecoach? SWT has been Stagecoach since it was privatised.

EDIT: I'm sad to see this. SWT was one of the first franchises to be let, and whilst they have had their moments (anyone remember the free travel day in 1997 because of the lack of drivers?) I found them to be one of the best. Perhaps because of the stability of the franchise, they have had time to make the structure work. Most passengers don't appreciate how difficult it is to run such a complicated franchise (and to be fair they don't care).
 
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Monty

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I would say Stagecoach are in a pretty strong position to retain the franchise, any would be usurper is going to have to pull out all the stops to have a good chance of getting it. The South Western franchise is a lucrative venture and you can guarantee that the SWT management will move hell and high water to keep it. As a member if staff either way I am not particularly concerned irrespective of what has been said on previous threads. Things like DOO are likely to prove impractical to implement in the short and medium terms for a number of reasons.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I would say Stagecoach are in a pretty strong position to retain the franchise, any would be usurper is going to have to pull out all the stops to have a good chance of getting it. The South Western franchise is a lucrative venture and you can guarantee that the SWT management will move hell and high water to keep it. As a member if staff either way I am not particularly concerned irrespective of what has been said on previous threads. Things like DOO are likely to prove impractical to implement in the short and medium terms for a number of reasons.

There will be a DfT line of thought not to let any one owner get too comfortable running a franchise.
SWT pays a big premium which goes round the circle to fund subsidies elsewhere, Northern if you need an example.
So DfT can't afford a cozy settlement with Stagecoach, and Stagecoach can't afford miserly profits.
With only 4 months before the competition starts, it will be interesting to see if any restructuring or major investment is planned.
There was no obvious reason to carve up South Western until maybe Crossrail 2 comes along, but that won't be in the next franchise period.
I suspect it will come down to cost (and therefore premium).
 

SpacePhoenix

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Could the Weymouth-Bristol route be migrated over to SWT for the new franchise?

How likely is it that LO will take over any of SWT's "metro" routes?
 

Monty

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I suspect the main sticking point will be revenue support, the DfT is going to want to get rid of that and want the TOC to shoulder the full burden. Growth projections and forecasting where the economy will be within the next 10 years will also influence things as it will ultimately dictate how much companies are willing to bid. It was said SWT overbid for the last franchise by several hundred million pounds from the next nearest bidder. I should think the incumbent management having people crunching out the numbers as we speak insuring Stagecoach can over the most competitive offer by some margin.

Could the Weymouth-Bristol route be migrated over to SWT for the new franchise?
Is it possible? I guess so, but until someone in the DfT sees some merit in it I doubt such change will happen.

How likely is it that LO will take over any of SWT's "metro" routes?
In time for the next franchise? Highly unlikely until something like Crossrail 2 comes along (if it ever does). Our 'metro' network is heavily integrated with the suburban services and separating the two will cause all sorts of issues with diagramming.
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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From the BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-33436408
But the RMT's general secretary Mick Cash called the decision a "shocking indictment of government policy and the privatised railway that a company that has been running the franchise for 20 years is not entrusted with the service going forward".

Is this a back-handed compliment for SWT?
Actually, Mick, it's called competition, and is exactly how franchising is supposed to work.
 

pompeyfan

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I for one hope that stagecoach do retain the franchise. They seem in many ways much better then their local competitors. That said, the Desiro fleet is starting to look a bit tired from an outside point of view.

From a selfish point of view I hope That if stagecoach do (unlikely) lose the franchise, that it is awarded to First ( as I'll get returns to London for £6!) but as I say that is completely based on my personal circumstances.
 

WatcherZero

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From the BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-33436408


Is this a back-handed compliment for SWT?
Actually, Mick, it's called competition, and is exactly how franchising is supposed to work.

Yeah I couldn't work out what Cash was talking about either, was he actually praising a privatised operator, if they had been awarded a extension wouldnt he be out complaining about it like they have done with other franchises and demanding it be nationalised instead...

Hes just being contrarian.
 

northwichcat

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From the BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-33436408


Is this a back-handed compliment for SWT?
Actually, Mick, it's called competition, and is exactly how franchising is supposed to work.

Tony Miles has said that DfT wanted to increase the premium and Stagecoach refused. SWT may have told the RMT they did it because the increased premium would have resulted in staff cuts. However, I imagine profits and reputation were Stagecoach's top concerns.
 

matt_world2004

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Who knows. Maybe this is the beginning of the break up of the existing franchise.

A lot of the metro stuff could go to tfl rail, part of london overground.

Great western could pick up some of the longer distance stuff.

There are some routes that would be more problematic to place

TfL Rail is the Crossrail franchise, they just don't want it to be branded crossrail while it is running like poo.
 
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