ENCTS payments

[HughT]

I was wondering if anyone knew how much bus operators receive from their local council for each use of a senior bus pass (ENCTS card)? Let's limit it to England, to reduce the complications. Does each council set its own rate, perhaps? Over the years I've heard wildly different figures, to the extent that I don't believe any of them!

Is there any publicly-accessible documentary evidence?

Apologies if this is common knowledge - couldn't find any recent info on this topic.

Thanks in advance.

 

[borage]

There's a rather complicated "calculator" spreadsheet on the GOV.UK website: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/concessionary-bus-travel-reimbursement-calculator, as well as pages of guidance if you're interested.

Councils also publish "payments to suppliers" data (for example, for Norfolk: https://www.norfolk.gov.uk/what-we-...ta-protection/open-data/payments-to-suppliers), which includes each monthly payment to each operator. It's not tremendously useful without knowing how many journeys took place.

 

[HughT]

Many thanks for that. Plenty of reading required. Your help is much appreciated - even if I'm now wondering why I didn't locate that myself (speaking as a retired librarian, that is!).

Haven't managed to locate anything similar to the Norfolk breakdown on the Cambs website (my own local authority), although cumulative totals do appear from time in time buried deep in committee papers.

 

[Robertj21a]

The whole issue is clouded in a certain amount of mystery, and varies wildly across England (let alone the other countries!). Even with the calculator spreadsheet, it can be largely irrelevant as some councils simply agree a set figure with each operator in their area (i.e regardless of actual passenger trips) - I assume that this is possible if both council and operator feel that the figure is 'reasonable' in all the circumstances. It must certainly make the workload much easier.

 

[HughT]

That sounds risky. Some Council Tax payer with time on their hands might well challenge the "set figure" if they had reason to think (and the figures to prove????) that the council was handing over more than they should! (I'm assuming no operator would let their council get away with underpaying...)

But "mystery" seems to be the precise word!

 

[Robertj21a]

That sounds risky. Some Council Tax payer with time on their hands might well challenge the "set figure" if they had reason to think (and the figures to prove????) that the council was handing over more than they should! (I'm assuming no operator would let their council get away with underpaying...)

But "mystery" seems to be the precise word!

I don't think there is much chance of any council overpaying, it's more a question of an operator accepting (reluctantly ?) that the council can only pay up to a specific amount.

 

[Stan Drews]

There are generally two methods of reimbursement.
One is where a percentage of the equivalent adult single fare is paid for the ENCTS journey undertaken. The other is where a flat rate is ‘agreed’ with the operator, and that is paid for each ENCTS journey undertaken. The former can vary quite a bit from authority to authority, but the best is around 50-55%. The flat rate is often around £1, although varies depending on the type of routes operated, i.e. shorter town routes, or longer country routes.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

There are generally two methods of reimbursement.
One is where a percentage of the equivalent adult single fare is paid for the ENCTS journey undertaken. The other is where a flat rate is ‘agreed’ with the operator, and that is paid for each ENCTS journey undertaken. The former can vary quite a bit from authority to authority, but the best is around 50-55%. The flat rate is often around £1, although varies depending on the type of routes operated, i.e. shorter town routes, or longer country routes.

IIRC, North Yorkshire CC are one of the worst payers. It’s been quoted (but cannot swear to the accuracy of this) that they paid £1.04 per passenger in 2015.

 

[Stan Drews]

IIRC, North Yorkshire CC are one of the worst payers. It’s been quoted (but cannot swear to the accuracy of this) that they paid £1.04 per passenger in 2015.

In 2017/18, I’m aware of the rates being paid to three different operators. They were £0.75, £1.01 and £1.51 per ENCTS journey. None of them were what you would describe as town operators, and one of them went bust.

 

[Cesarcollie]

I was wondering if anyone knew how much bus operators receive from their local council for each use of a senior bus pass (ENCTS card)? Let's limit it to England, to reduce the complications. Does each council set its own rate, perhaps? Over the years I've heard wildly different figures, to the extent that I don't believe any of them!

Is there any publicly-accessible documentary evidence?

Apologies if this is common knowledge - couldn't find any recent info on this topic.

Thanks in advance.

Varies hugely by local authority. Some default to the DfT ‘calculator ‘ which tends to result in the lowest reimbursement. In other cases a local authority recognises that a very low rate will mean service withdrawals, and negotiates with operators (often collectively) - often resulting in a fixed pot arrangement which gives both sides a degree of certainty. In the former case rates can be 40% or less of the average adult fare (including singles, returns, weeklies etc etc). In the latter case they may be 50% or a little more. But ongoing financial pressures mean every year local authorities generally try to reduce the amount they pay, in turn causing operators to review frequencies/routes/fares.

 

[markymark2000]

That sounds risky. Some Council Tax payer with time on their hands might well challenge the "set figure" if they had reason to think (and the figures to prove????) that the council was handing over more than they should! (I'm assuming no operator would let their council get away with underpaying...)

But "mystery" seems to be the precise word!

Merseytravel agree with operators a set fee which is re-evaluated every few months (or more frequent if requested by smaller operators with routes and passenger numbers which keep changing).

 

[83G/84D]

On the subject of fares:-

Bus fares to reduce in price in Cornwall

The pilot scheme starts next year

Public transport in Cornwall has received a significant boost with the Chancellor’s promise of a £23.5m funding package over the next four years for a “Reduced Bus Fares” pilot.

Due to begin in May 2020, Cornwall is the first rural area to be given the opportunity to run and fund a pilot scheme to bring down the cost of travelling by bus.

Cornwall Council Cabinet member for transport Geoff Brown said: “One of the issues for our residents is the cost of using buses to get around. So we put forward a case to the Department for Transport to help us encourage people to use the buses by reducing bus fares.

“If more people use the buses then the plan is that over the four years of the pilot project, the lower cost of fares becomes financially sustainable. More journeys by bus means more fares being paid which means keeping fares down.”

He added: “We know that good public transport is important to our residents to connect communities for work, education and socialising. Promoting and providing affordable public transport is also important in tackling climate change and getting cars off the road.

“That’s why improving public transport in Cornwall is a priority for this council. We’ve already seen public transport passenger numbers in the South West growing faster than anywhere else in the UK. Last year, 19.2 million journeys were made on public transport in Cornwall.”

Sarah Newton, MP for Truro and Falmouth, supported the bid to the Department for Transport.

She said: “This investment will help existing bus service users and will enable more people to afford to access education, employment and social activities. It encourages more people to switch to public transport.

“We have new, low-emission buses and, with this government subsidy, lower fares, so I hope many more people will use them. Switching from cars saves money, helps tackle climate change and improves the air quality of our natural environment.”

Cornwall Council signed a Devolution Deal with Government in 2015 aimed at delivering a cost-effective customer-focused integrated public transport system. It said the resulting One Public Transport System for Cornwall project is delivering upon its objectives to improve public transport.



A spokesman said: "It has seen the introduction of new buses, improved roadside shelters, bus and rail station infrastructure and digital timetable information. It’s also the first rural authority to introduce contactless payments on buses.

"Encouraging more residents to use public transport rather than using the car supports the council’s determination to tackle the Climate Change Emergency by helping to reduce emission levels."

https://www.cornwalllive.com/

 

[carlberry]

On the subject of fares:-





https://www.cornwalllive.com/

It's odd that it quotes 'residents' quite often. And when the scheme ends the fares go up and (if the increase is substantial which the decrease will have to be to make any short term impact) people will stop using the bus again.

 

[AM9]

It's odd that it quotes 'residents' quite often. And when the scheme ends the fares go up and (if the increase is substantial which the decrease will have to be to make any short term impact) people will stop using the bus again.

Is there any evidence that the scheme is ending?

 

[carlberry]

Is there any evidence that the scheme is ending?

It's to run for four years. Without the subsidy tapers down to the end (which would front load the costs) then there will be an end.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It's odd that it quotes 'residents' quite often. And when the scheme ends the fares go up and (if the increase is substantial which the decrease will have to be to make any short term impact) people will stop using the bus again.

To be fair, it's a local politician talking to the people who elect him. Whether that means you will have some sort of Kernow resident pass, who knows?

As is stated, the aim is to fundamentally change behaviour over the four years from May 2020 so that patronage increases and so it becomes self funding. It's perhaps fair to have doubts but at least it seems like a realistic pilot rather than the more "idealistic" plans of various metro mayors/PTEs.

 

[E-Rail]

Of course, lower fares paid on bus will in turn reduce the average fare foregone and thus reduce the amount of ENCTS reimbursement received by operators from the same councils.