EN40462 Routing

[Richard Scott]

I am planning to travel on EN40462 from Vienna in early April and it appears to have a vastly increased journey time compared to when I've used it before. All seems reasonably normal to Salzburg but then takes over 3 hours to get to Innsbruck, anyone know why? Is it being diverted via a different route? Any information appreciated.

 

[StephenHunter]

That's weird - the timetable is scheduled for two:

vagonWEB » Řazení vlaků » 2023 » ÖBB EN » EN 40462

www.vagonweb.cz

 

[rvdborgt]

The timetable shows a 10-minute stop in Hallwang-Elixhausen after Salzburg, which probably means it doesn't go via Rosenheim but via Zell am See. I suppose they change direction at Hallwang-Elixhausen to avoid the train arrives in Zurich in the reverse order.

 

[StephenHunter]

They have to reverse at Buchs SG anyway.

 

[rvdborgt]

They have to reverse at Buchs SG anyway.

I think they want the carriages to remain in the same order. In Buchs they always need to reverse, regardless of any diversion in Austria. With this diversion, they reverse in Salzburg and in Hallwang-Elixhausen, so the train remains in the same order.

 

[Richard Scott]

Thanks for the replies, wonder if they'll still do the shunt at Salzburg and whether loco runs round at Hallwang-Elixhausen or will a new loco be used?

 

[AlbertBeale]

Thanks for the replies, wonder if they'll still do the shunt at Salzburg and whether loco runs round at Hallwang-Elixhausen or will a new loco be used?

Let us know when you find out! (If you don't sleep through it...)

 

[30907]

The timetable shows a 10-minute stop in Hallwang-Elixhausen after Salzburg, which probably means it doesn't go via Rosenheim but via Zell am See. I suppose they change direction at Hallwang-Elixhausen to avoid the train arrives in Zurich in the reverse order.

Interesting - not shown in the public journey planners, but plausible.
The Bregenz sleeper simply omits Salzburg and calls at Salzburg Sued.

Thanks for the replies, wonder if they'll still do the shunt at Salzburg and whether loco runs round at Hallwang-Elixhausen or will a new loco be used?

Given the complex shunts, and the length of time 466 sits in Salzburg, it will all happen there.
I've twice been on the diverted 466 and have no detailed memory of the manoevres - but I am reasonably confident that the double reversal took place from the orientation of my berth next morning!

 

[Austriantrain]

I am planning to travel on EN40462 from Vienna in early April and it appears to have a vastly increased journey time compared to when I've used it before. All seems reasonably normal to Salzburg but then takes over 3 hours to get to Innsbruck, anyone know why? Is it being diverted via a different route? Any information appreciated.

Besides all that has already been said: the reason for it all is that there are various closures of the „corridor“ route via Rosenheim scheduled for April.

 

[rvdborgt]

Interesting - not shown in the public journey planners, but plausible.

I found this in the text version of the DB planner. It sometimes includes operational stops that are not for passengers.
I use the text planner (normally the German version) a lot because of its speed and the ability to copy timetables into a text file easily.

 

[StephenHunter]

I'm a tad confused here - do they normally go via Rosenheim then? Because I'm planning to get EN40467 from Zurich to Budapest and that has a two-hour journey time.

-----------------------------------+-----------+-----------+----------+
 | Station                           |  Arrival  | Departure |  Train   |
 +-----------------------------------+-----------+-----------+----------+
 | Zürich HB                         |           |      21:40|  EN 40467|
 | Buchs SG                          |      22:48|      23:05|  EN 40467|
 | Feldkirch                         |      23:21|      23:24|          |
 | Bludenz                           |      23:37|      23:40|          |
 | Landeck-Zams                      |      00:34|      00:36|          |
 | Innsbruck Hbf                     |      01:20|      01:28|          |
 | Salzburg Hbf                      |      03:22|      03:43|          |
 | Linz Hbf                          |      04:52|      05:10|          |
 | St.Pölten Hbf                     |      06:00|      06:02|          |
 | Wien Meidling                     |      06:26|      06:29|          |
 | Wien Hbf                          |      06:34|      06:40|          |
 | Hegyeshalom(Gr)     |      07:20|      07:20|          |
 | Hegyeshalom                       |      07:23|      07:28|          |
 | Mosonmagyarovar                   |      07:35|      07:36|          |
 | Györ                              |      07:53|      07:56|          |
 | Tatabanya                         |      08:29|      08:30|          |
 | Budapest-Kelenföld                |      09:02|      09:04|          |
 | Budapest-Keleti                   |      09:19|           |

 

[Austriantrain]

I found this in the text version of the DB planner. It sometimes includes operational stops that are not for passengers.
I use the text planner (normally the German version) a lot because of its speed and the ability to copy timetables into a text file easily.

Thank you for this link, very useful!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Mar 2023 ==

I'm a tad confused here - do they normally go via Rosenheim then? Because I'm planning to get EN40467 from Zurich to Budapest and that has a two-hour journey time.

They normally do, but there are works on the „Korridor“ on several occasions in Spring 2023 and diversions via Zell am See regularly occur. It really depends on the date you travel.

 

[StephenHunter]

That's interesting, because the Zell am See route used by the Arlberg Orient Express explicitly to avoid Germany post-WW1.

 

[Austriantrain]

That's interesting, because the Zell am See route used by the Arlberg Orient Express explicitly to avoid Germany post-WW1.

I don’t quite understand what you are aiming at. WW1 was a long time ago and trains between Salzburg and Innsbruck have been running via Germany for decades.

 

[StephenHunter]

I don’t quite understand what you are aiming at. WW1 was a long time ago and trains between Salzburg and Innsbruck have been running via Germany for decades.

I thought the standard route was via Zell am See still, following the Arlberg Pass route. Never mind, I'll hopefully be asleep either way.

 

[Austriantrain]

I thought the standard route was via Zell am See still, following the Arlberg Pass route. Never mind, I'll hopefully be asleep either way.

No. All long-distance traffic between the East and the West of Austria goes via Germany, using a chord south of Rosenheim connecting the Salzburg - Rosenheim and the Rosenheim - Kufstein line, avoiding a reversal in Rosenheim station. The chord was built in 1982 (!), paid for by Austria.

The line via Zell am See is only used for diversions (and local traffic of course, plus some tourist trains and a couple of Graz - Innsbruck trains, among which the Transalpin with panoramic car) and adds at least 90 minutes to journey time. It is much more scenic, but on a night train not very comfortable, having loads of curves.

 

[StephenHunter]

No. All long-distance traffic between the East and the West of Austria goes via Germany, using a chord south of Rosenheim connecting the Salzburg - Rosenheim and the Rosenheim - Kufstein line, avoiding a reversal in Rosenheim station. The chord was built in 1982 (!), paid for by Austria.

The line via Zell am See is only used for diversions (and local traffic of course, plus some tourist trains and a couple of Graz - Innsbruck trains, among which the Transalpin with panoramic car) and adds at least 90 minutes to journey time. It is much more scenic, but on a night train not very comfortable, having loads of curves.

Then the European Rail Timetable people are misleading - they put the Zurich-Budapest service in Table 86, the Zell am See route!

 

[30907]

Then ERT are misleading - they put the Zurich-Budapest service in Table 86, which includes the Zell am See route!

Correction there. It's a very complex table. Arguably Kitzbuehel to Schwarzach should be indented, but the only trains which take that route are the ones which are shown to stop at Schwarzach.

 

[tynesider]

They have to reverse at Buchs SG anyway.

Not directly related to the night train this thread is concerned with, but I notice in late March daytime RailJets from to / from Zurich do not call at Sargans. I don't have my atlas to hand, but would this suggest a diversion via St. Margrethen and therefore no reversal at Buchs?

 

[DanielB]

Not directly related to the night train this thread is concerned with, but I notice in late March daytime RailJets from to / from Zurich do not call at Sargans. I don't have my atlas to hand, but would this suggest a diversion via St. Margrethen and therefore no reversal at Buchs?

Had a look a several dates throughout 2023 and never get a stop at Sargans displayed in the SBB journey planner. The Railjets to/from Zürich did stop there last year, so apparently something has changed there.

 

[30907]

Had a look a several dates throughout 2023 and never get a stop at Sargans displayed in the SBB journey planner. The Railjets to/from Zürich did stop there last year, so apparently something has changed there.

It looks as though all but a few trains are omitting the stop, and the one that does stop has 2min added. Punctuality issues (Westbound there is a Chur IC right behind)? Temporary speed restriction?

 

[Segedunum]

It looks as though all but a few trains are omitting the stop, and the one that does stop has 2min added. Punctuality issues (Westbound there is a Chur IC right behind)? Temporary speed restriction?

From experience of practically commuting on the RJX services from Zürich to Bludenz for a week last year, it was common that you'd accrue a couple of minutes delay to Sargans. This was because an IC to Chur leaves at xx38 and the RJX leaves at xx40, which is very tight.

However, you'd normally leave Buchs SG on time, with time being lost yet again on the approach to Feldkirch (and often being made up again as there was often a booked dwell of a few minutes).

 

[Austriantrain]

From experience of practically commuting on the RJX services from Zürich to Bludenz for a week last year, it was common that you'd accrue a couple of minutes delay to Sargans. This was because an IC to Chur leaves at xx38 and the RJX leaves at xx40, which is very tight.

However, you'd normally leave Buchs SG on time, with time being lost yet again on the approach to Feldkirch (and often being made up again as there was often a booked dwell of a few minutes).

In Feldkirch, the RJ from/to Zurich always have a dwell (it’s a Takt after all - we tend not to do different paths in different hours) for pathing reasons - the Arlberg (mostly) and the Feldkirch - Buchs line are single track - and because on some trains, a second railjet set will be added or detached.

As to skipping Sargans, I can only guess… there have been ongoing works between Sargans and Zurich for some time, so they probably need the time saved by skipping the stop for pathing.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Mar 2023 ==

In Feldkirch, the RJ from/to Zurich always have a dwell (it’s a Takt after all - we tend not to do different paths in different hours) for pathing reasons - the Arlberg (mostly) and the Feldkirch - Buchs line are single track - and because on some trains, a second railjet set will be added or detached.

As to skipping Sargans, I can only guess… there have been ongoing works between Sargans and Zurich for some time, so they probably need the time saved by skipping the stop for pathing.

I looked it up - the not-stopping in Sargans is due to doubling works between Buchs and Sargans.

 

[30907]

I think they want the carriages to remain in the same order. In Buchs they always need to reverse, regardless of any diversion in Austria. With this diversion, they reverse in Salzburg and in Hallwang-Elixhausen, so the train remains in the same order.

I have just picked up from Drehscheibe (topic EN50466/7 the Prague sleeper, but the same train!) that the double Salzburg reversal doesn't necessarily happen.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I have just picked up from Drehscheibe (topic EN50466/7 the Prague sleeper, but the same train!) that the double Salzburg reversal doesn't necessarily happen.

So does that mean that if it isn't running via the German short-cut, then it doesn't necessarily go via Salzburg Hbf at all?

 

[rvdborgt]

So does that mean that if it isn't running via the German short-cut, then it doesn't necessarily go via Salzburg Hbf at all?

It will run via Salzburg. It has seating coaches attached that run as EC 462 Budapest-Salzburg.

 

[duesselmartin]

So does that mean that if it isn't running via the German short-cut, then it doesn't necessarily go via Salzburg Hbf at all?

Would me changing direction at Salzburg to reach Wörgl via Zell am See. Only the Kufstein stop is omitted.

 

[30907]

So does that mean that if it isn't running via the German short-cut, then it doesn't necessarily go via Salzburg Hbf at all?

No, I mean that the double reversal mentioned in #3 doesn't necessarily happen.
The portion working involved is complex and involves some long waits so Salzburg is essential:
Budapest-Zurich plus through coach Prague-Linz-Zurich
Budapest-Munich-Stuttgart
Vienna-Zurich
Vienna-Venice
Stuttgart-Munich-Venice
Stuttgart-Munich-Zagreb

 

[Austriantrain]

No, I mean that the double reversal mentioned in #3 doesn't necessarily happen.
The portion working involved is complex and involves some long waits so Salzburg is essential:
Budapest-Zurich plus through coach Prague-Linz-Zurich
Budapest-Munich-Stuttgart
Vienna-Zurich
Vienna-Venice
Stuttgart-Munich-Venice
Stuttgart-Munich-Zagreb

As long as the return working is diverted via Zell am See too, it doesn’t matter anyway. Things get complicated if it doesn’t and there are no good options to turn the train around other than „triangulating“ it in Salzburg (at least none comes to my mind ATM - I suppose it could be done at Zurich, but the station is so busy that it‘s certainly complicated. The same will probably be true if the train is turned at Sargans instead of using the chord).