EMU's out of Allerton

[Rail North]

Does anyone have any information on what class of EMU Northern Rail will be operating at the end of the year.

 

[RichmondCommu]

From what I can gather 319's. Eventually those same units may get refurbished.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

From what I can gather 319's. Eventually those same units may get refurbished.

It would be a disgrace if they came up North in anything BUT a fully refurbished condition, from information that users in the existing area of the Class 319 units say about their current state, in other threads on this website.

 

[Manchester77]

Northern has four offers of trains from ROSCOs for December. The options are part of the final discussions with DfT prior to signing the new deal. NOT an extension - please note none of these are "extensions" they have to be new contracts, so levels of subsidy etc. have to be negotiated again.

- Tony Miles posting on wnxx about northerns bisect award.

The offer to northern to use the off lease 317/7s has been declined because the leasing costs were too high. Angel shooting themselves in the foot there(!) :roll:
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Quite right Paul has been reported no heavy refurbishment until the new franchise (2016) so will probably end up no different from the rest of northerns fleet, stripes moquette! Northern livery and notices nothing else though.

 

[WatcherZero]

Its not really surprising, the reason those 317's are off lease in the first place was because after their refurb they had considerably higher leasing fees than the rest of the fleet and so were released back to the ROSCO.

 

[DarloRich]

It would be a disgrace if they came up North in anything BUT a fully refurbished condition, from information that users in the existing area of the Class 319 units say about their current state, in other threads on this website.

I would suggest there will be insufficient time to tender and complete a full refurbishment. The best you might get is a bit of an internal refresh, but I doubt even that will happen. Northern will have little option but to logo them up and run them as they stand.

 

[edwin_m]

I agree it's increasingly likely that there won't be time to do much refurbishment, though hopefully if a first batch arrive in existing condition later batches can be upgraded and the first batch sent back for a similar treatment later. However I would hope that Northern just re-logo rather than re-vinlying unrefurbished units, as it's pretty irritating when they spend money promoting their own image and not on improving things for the passengers.

If the refurbishment of the 317/7s has made them too expensive for Northern to lease, what does this say about the refurbishment of the 319s?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I would suggest there will be insufficient time to tender and complete a full refurbishment. The best you might get is a bit of an internal refresh, but I doubt even that will happen. Northern will have little option but to logo them up and run them as they stand.

Thinking of some of the Pacer fleet that so operate, regular passengers of Northern Rail will assume that all replacement stock cascaded to them are specified to the level that you mention above. It is such lack of expectation that causes "us up North" to cast envious eyes on the offerings that seem to be offered as replacement rolling stock when the opportunity is so afforded to those rail travellers rather more geographically south...

 

[YorkshireBear]

Thinking of some of the Pacer fleet that so operate, regular passengers of Northern Rail will assume that all replacement stock cascaded to them are specified to the level that you mention above. It is such lack of expectation that causes "us up North" to cast envious eyes on the offerings that seem to be offered as replacement rolling stock when the opportunity is so afforded to those rail travellers rather more geographically south...

If you want all EMUs refurbished before coming to Northern thats fine. But i think that would delay the Todmorden Curve even further.

 

[ainsworth74]

It would be a disgrace if they came up North in anything BUT a fully refurbished condition, from information that users in the existing area of the Class 319 units say about their current state, in other threads on this website.

They're not that bad internally. A good deep clean before entering service with Northern Rail would leave them in a reasonable condition to serve until a full and comprehensive refurbishment can be carried out early in the next franchise.

Certainly they're a significant step up from a Pacer even in their current condition let alone if they get a good scrub. Deploying them unrefurbished is not what I would call a 'disgrace'. Disapointing perhaps after what we were told (but then that plan got sunk due to other factors) but not a 'disgrace'. Besides if you don't want them over there then we here in the North East will happily take the wires and the 319s to go with them

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Certainly they're a significant step up from a Pacer even in their current condition let alone if they get a good scrub. Deploying them unrefurbished is not what I would call a 'disgrace'. Disappointing perhaps after what we were told (but then that plan got sunk due to other factors) but not a 'disgrace'.

But would that mean that it is the hope and aspiration to have all the Class 319 fleet to be so relocated up North before the new franchise starts as a fait accompli ?

Disappointment and disgrace are but two words with a different depth of cynicism attached to reflect that part of your posting above that I have duly caused to be shown in bold type.

 

[northwichcat]

It would be a disgrace if they came up North in anything BUT a fully refurbished condition, from information that users in the existing area of the Class 319 units say about their current state, in other threads on this website.

An issue to consider is we need extra capacity ASAP and refurbishing units means less units in service. Had the 319s been made released a year before the Chat Moss wires were ready (as originally planned) then there wouldn't have been an acceptable excuse for not doing a full accessible refurbishment prior to introducing them in service with Northern.

Full accessible refurbishment is expected of the 319s to be a franchise commitment of the next franchise starting in 2016, in the same way refurbishing the 158s was a franchise commitment of the East Midlands Trains franchise.
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Certainly they're a significant step up from a Pacer even in their current condition let alone if they get a good scrub.

Although they will be working diagrams which are currently operated by refreshed 156s in the first instance.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

From what I can gather 319's. Eventually those same units may get refurbished.

It is understood to be 5 x 319s that Northern will be getting this year, which is enough to cover the 4 x diagrams on the Liverpool to Airport diagrams and a maintenance spare. The Lime Street-Victoria stoppers and Lime Street-Wigan services are expected to switch to EMUs in May 2015, so we'll have over 6 months of people moaning about diesels being used on fully electrified routes.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It is understood to be 5 x 319s that Northern will be getting this year, which is enough to cover the 4 x diagrams on the Liverpool to Airport diagrams and a maintenance spare. The Lime Street-Victoria stoppers and Lime Street-Wigan services are expected to switch to EMUs in May 2015, so we'll have over 6 months of people moaning about diesels being used on fully electrified routes.

Isn't it 6x319s released in May?
And 3 diagrams for the Airport service?
Not that it makes much difference, there are still too few.

 

[northwichcat]

Isn't it 6x319s released in May?
And 3 diagrams for the Airport service?
Not that it makes much difference, there are still too few.

I've heard it's going to be 5 Northern are taking on.

Maybe it's 3 to use and 2 for maintenance/crew training or maybe they'll stretch to putting a 4th one in service at peak times?

 

[Manchester77]

Isn't it 6x319s released in May?
And 3 diagrams for the Airport service?
Not that it makes much difference, there are still too few.

Apparently only 3 from May as the other 3 FCC need as some trains go off for a C4 overhaul. Northern are interested in 5 319s for electric services to begin with but I'd imagine as the 387s come on stream Northern will begin to build up a fleet of 319s.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Apparently only 3 from May as the other 3 FCC need as some trains go off for a C4 overhaul. Northern are interested in 5 319s for electric services to begin with but I'd imagine as the 387s come on stream Northern will begin to build up a fleet of 319s.

This extract from the TSGN ITT about the 319/3 fleet seems fairly clear:

Note 1: Bidders should assume that 6 of these units will be transferred out of the franchise in May 2014.

The next cascade date is Dec 2015 (29 units, type not specified).

 

[Manchester77]

700101 wrote:
And now it seems as part of the franchise discussions only 3x 319s are to be released from Thameslink in May.
I don't know reasoning but its not because units incoming as its still 6x 377/2 coming. Just not as many 319s leaving.

Today's Railway mentions the reason for only three units leaving FCC is due to the other three covering for the start of C4 overhauls which Hornsey is going to start doing this year.

Things can change and since they are pretty well informed (infact I think he is an employee of FCC) it seems to be true. Its not like the 6 units won't come up its just that only 3 can be released from May

 

[Class377/5]

This extract from the TSGN ITT about the 319/3 fleet seems fairly clear:


The next cascade date is Dec 2015 (29 units, type not specified).

Actually the ITT was clear but its been misread by all. The wording was

Bidders should assume a further six class 377/2 units will be sub-leased to FCC prior to the start of the TSGN franchise, to replace the six class 319/3 units transferred out

The use of assume in the ITT was because talks were still on going and they couldn't guarantee this was going to happen. Its one of many assumptions in the ITT document that may not pan out.

The next cascade is May 2015 not December when all 29x 387 are expected to be in service so:

To enable cascade of other vehicles to other TOCs;.... in accordance with the cascade requirements specified in this ITT

The changes in May that I know of are

8x 377/7 in service with Southern
6x 377/2 transferred to FCC
3x 319/3 released from FCC to ROSCO (then to Northern?)
3x 319 used to create a pool so C4 can start on the 319 fleet
2x 317 transferred to FCC so that
2x 365 can be released for work

 

[Rail North]

At last the question has been answered. Does any one know if they are new or old un refurbished stock. Porter brook has has lying around in mothballs.

 

[Class377/5]

At last the question has been answered. Does any one know if they are new or old un refurbished stock. Porter brook has has lying around in mothballs.

Er the 319s are all on in service now, that's been part of the issue of getting them released for Northern. Suggest you read the wiki entry for more info.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_319

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

At last the question has been answered. Does any one know if they are new or old un refurbished stock. Porter brook has has lying around in mothballs.

If I read the Wiki entry correctly (it's a bit muddled and incomplete as usual), the 319/3 units are numbered 361-386 built in 1990, so 26 similar units all told.
They were modified around 1998 to remove First Class to work on the Luton-Wimbledon Loop inner-suburban services.
Had a "minor refresh" in 2004.
There are very much in intensive use.