Emt upfn

[Ferret]

That's all well and good Dave, but I'd not be handing in an unsigned UFN unless it was accompanied by a TIR.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Understandable if there's no supporting evidence, but I'm sure you are aware of situations where there is some substantiation of the passenger's identity and/or their retained travel documents, which would put the UFN in context and give it basis for follow-up enforcement if it was not paid promptly.

 

[Monty]

There's potential for some misunderstanding here.

There is no question of validity arising from whether or not the debtor (the passenger) signs it - the liability has already been incurred by the passenger's act of travelling.
There is a requirement for the representative of the Railway Company to authorise the issue of the Notice by way of a signature.

It wasn't clear whether the "you" referred to by 156441 was the passenger or the Inspector (though I took it to refer to the passenger which would be consistent with posts above).

Whoops! sorry there, I should have been clearer I did indeed mean the passenger. If the inspector has not filled out the form correctly (ie his signature is missing where required) then it is indeed not valid!

 

[RJ]

One thing others haven't mentioned is that East Midlands Trains' TMs and RP staff surreptitiously record data at or around the time the incident occurs. This includes;

Build, hair colour, hair type, eye colour, ethnic appearance, facial hair, height and complexion.

Other factors include whether the passenger;

Is left or right handed
Was wearing glasses
Was wearing jewellery
Had any marks or scars
Had any tattoos

Passenger's occupation is also on there.

Finally, there is a box for the member of staff to fill in their version of events if the notice is nil paid.

Presumably this all goes in as evidence should the company wish to pursue legal action against the passenger.

 

[talltim]

I have no need to travel from st Pancras to Leicester at any time of day, but Im increasingly tempted to do so...

 

[6Gman]

One thing others haven't mentioned is that East Midlands Trains' TMs and RP staff surreptitiously record data at or around the time the incident occurs. This includes;

Build, hair colour, hair type, eye colour, ethnic appearance, facial hair, height and complexion.

Other factors include whether the passenger;

Is left or right handed
Was wearing glasses
Was wearing jewellery
Had any marks or scars
Had any tattoos

Passenger's occupation is also on there.

Finally, there is a box for the member of staff to fill in their version of events if the notice is nil paid.

Presumably this all goes in as evidence should the company wish to pursue legal action against the passenger.

If an RPI asked me for my occupation I doubt that I'd be inclined to answer ....

 

[RJ]

I believe they have been trained to obtain the information covertly. They often ask for photo I.D and start 'friendly' conversations which are of a suspiciously inquisitive nature. A couple of them have been rather desperate and tried to get me to show them all the contents of my card wallet.

I'd advise anyone in such a situation to verbally confirm the details they're legally obliged to provide and don't do, show, or give them anything else. People would do well to distinguish between what a RPI is requesting under the auspices of relevant legislation and what they're requesting through their right to free speech.

 

[Tibbs]

I post this way too much when this subject comes up, but never NEVER say more than you absolutely have to.

When I talk to a guard, it's a hello, I show my ticket, smile and let him on his way.

This is why you should keep your mouth shut:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

It's American, but the principle is the same.

 

[sheff1]

Yes you dont have to but please, dont be smug to the staff.

It may not have been as how you come across but remember, the staff are doing the best they can.

Well saying 'I have been in the job for 22 years and hence have no need to look anything up' is smug in the extreme. If that is the best they can do then, to put it bluntly, they are clearly in the wrong job.

 

[Monty]

I believe they have been trained to obtain the information covertly. They often ask for photo I.D and start 'friendly' conversations which are of a suspiciously inquisitive nature. A couple of them have been rather desperate and tried to get me to show them all the contents of my card wallet.

If their training is anything like their sister company SWT in regards to revenue protection I would say this is not the case. Yes we are encouraged to collect as much information as we can, I would always request to passengers for their date of birth and if they minded their national insurance number. If they objected I would say no more on the matter, I would always be polite and would never give a passenger any cause to feel if they were under duress.

The idea we would skulk around and obtain information 'covertly' like the Stasi in some grand conspiracy against the public is an accusation I'm not willing to tolerate.

 

[RJ]

If their training is anything like their sister company SWT in regards to revenue protection I would say this is not the case. Yes we are encouraged to collect as much information as we can, I would always request to passengers for their date of birth and if they minded their national insurance number. If they objected I would say no more on the matter, I would always be polite and would never give a passenger any cause to feel if they were under duress.

The idea we would skulk around and obtain information 'covertly' like the Stasi in some grand conspiracy against the public is an accusation I'm not willing to tolerate.

Who's "we?" This concerns the way EMT conduct their revenue protection business, I don't purport to be referring to any other TOC.

It is covert. I'm not supposed to know that such information is being specifically collected, stored and passed onto at least one external company. I recall on at least two occasions asking "why are you asking me what I do?" and both times the TM claimed it was because they were just interested.

derby - did the TM issue the UFN on the spot and leave you to it, or did they take down your details, disappear for a few minutes then return to continue issuing it?

 

[sheff1]

I am amazed that there seems to be a school of thought that it is perfectly acceptable to request someone's NI number. This number is issued for very specific purposes and is not some sort of pseudo-National ID.

DOB is less of an issue, but again I don't see why RPIs etc want to ask for it, unless they suspect someone is travelling on an age restricted ticket to which they are not entitled.

 

[RJ]

Ignore it and end up in court!

If the combination is valid then it is better to deal with it now, try and be a smart a#se and it will end in tears.

Errr - I rang up the prosecutions department at EMT directly and told them to start expecting to have various cases concerning me to be referred to them, because I was fed up with going through the correct procedures to appeal, only to find that nobody at their HQ or at IRCAS possessed the competencies to determine the validity of unfamiliar tickets.

This was quite literally the only thing that got the company to start treating me fairly - staff from other departments just fobbed me off to Passenger Focus and ATOC!

 

[Monty]

I'm sorry to sound so melodramatic RJ, it's just sometimes it feels 'we' revenue staff and guards seemed to be tarred with the same brush and it's a bit soul destroying times to be brutally honest, for me it was never about "how can I get this guy to drop himself in it? I know I'll be 'friendly' with him." It was more of a case of "How can I do my job without get my head kicked in because this guy might not like what I have to say to him?" Yes I would always write down the passenger description and a brief description of what happens in my notebook, that way if I had to go to court I could positively identify the passenger.

I apologise RJ for rather curt response, I actually agree with you that revenue staff and guards should receive more training on ticketing and fares and many would benefit from it (including myself, I'm always willing to learn!). I almost wish sometimes we would cross paths when I was still an RPI as I would honestly appreciate some honest feedback on how people felt I would conduct myself in the course of my duties and for how good my knowledge was.

As the the NI issue, I guess the TOCs see it as another means to confirm someone's identity, after all many people may share the same name and date of birth. But the same NI number is rather unlikely isn't it? I see nothing inherently wrong in asking for it it if a passenger would refuse I would always respect their wishes.

 

[jb]

I see nothing inherently wrong in asking for it it if a passenger would refuse I would always respect their wishes.

You need retraining. It's terribly wrong and this is 100% obvious. The whole point is that plenty will give it up, not knowing they can refuse or be intimidated. If you can't see it's way out of line that's one thing. If you are actively being told to do this by your TOC it's little short of scandalous.

 

[Monty]

You need retraining. It's terribly wrong and this is 100% obvious. The whole point is that plenty will give it up, not knowing they can refuse or be intimidated. If you can't see it's way out of line that's one thing. If you are actively being told to do this by your TOC it's little short of scandalous.

Why though? Is against the law to ask for it? I find it strange that people consider it 'scandalous' when UFN and PFNs actually have a dedicated space for NI numbers.. I agree it his wrong to intimidate someone into give any details regardless if the passenger is required to give them or not. If one asks politely I see no problem with it, if the passenger refuses that is their right. So no it's not 100% obvious nor do I feel I need to be retrained thank you very much.

 

[soil]

I don't think it's appropriate to give out your NI number, since we don't have any kind of identity gestapo system in this country. An NI number is a tax identifier, no more.

I am not going to share my tax details with a ticket inspector.

 

[Monty]

I don't think it's appropriate to give out your NI number, since we don't have any kind of identity gestapo system in this country. An NI number is a tax identifier, no more.

I am not going to share my tax details with a ticket inspector.

Which Is something I respect, and as you are under no obligation to give it I would understand if you said no.

I guess I am going to have to agree to disagree with some of you when it comes to collecting personal details from passengers. But unless there is a law passed against it TOCs will still encourage their RPIs to collect information such as your NI number if at all possible. What I do want to make perfectly clear however is bullying someone into revealing any information (weather the RPI is entitled to it or not) is wrong and unacceptable.

 

[jb]

Why though? Is against the law to ask for it?

Wrong question. The right one is: do I have any right to know it? It's probably not against the law to ask a female traveller her bra size, but I doubt you'd do it.

I find it strange that people consider it 'scandalous' when UFN and PFNs actually have a dedicated space for NI numbers..

Did you really write this?

 

[Monty]

Wrong question. The right one is: do I have any right to know it? It's probably not against the law to ask a female traveller her bra size, but I doubt you'd do it.

My point is however the practice is unlikely to stop unless its made illegal.

Did you really write this?

Obviously, next sarcastic question?

You have your opinion and I respect that, but I have mine. If you gentleman feel so strongly on this issue I would urge you to write to your MP about it.

 

[jb]

Fair enough, I think we are clear. One irony in this is that I no longer live in the UK, the country in which I live has an "identity gestapo" culture as a poster above described it, and an official in the equivalent situation asking for the equivalent information would be quite standard.

Moreover I can see that such a system carries advantages as well as limitations. Nonetheless it's completely unworkable in the UK.

 

[34D]

Wrong question. The right one is: do I have any right to know it? It's probably not against the law to ask a female traveller her bra size, but I doubt you'd do it.

It could go under 'build' perhaps.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Which Is something I respect, and as you are under no obligation to give it I would understand if you said no.

I guess I am going to have to agree to disagree with some of you when it comes to collecting personal details from passengers. But unless there is a law passed against it TOCs will still encourage their RPIs to collect information such as your NI number if at all possible. What I do want to make perfectly clear however is bullying someone into revealing any information (weather the RPI is entitled to it or not) is wrong and unacceptable.

You might not conceive it as bullying but when you are asked by an RPI a passenger may feel that if they don't give it they are somehow breaking the law or making the situation worse for themselves as they are not armed with all the info.

You have been trained in the rules therefore it could be argued that it is abuse of your position to ask for things that are not essentially necessary?

 

[island]

In Ireland it is an offence to ask for or record someone's PPS number (equivalent of NI number) without proper cause. Obviously they need that here as well.

The Information Commissioner's Office may be interested as it is unlikely that the requesting or recording of NI numbers complies with schedule 1 to the Data Protection Act, 1998.

 

[talltim]

It could go under 'build' perhaps.

You couldn't have a more appropriate username to comment on this!

 

[Clip]

Well saying 'I have been in the job for 22 years and hence have no need to look anything up' is smug in the extreme. If that is the best they can do then, to put it bluntly, they are clearly in the wrong job.

And conversely turning round and telling someone that you know your 'legal rights' and asking someone such a thing will get their back up somewhat.

Which was my point.

 

[Nym]

The Information Commissioner's Office may be interested as it is unlikely that the requesting or recording of NI numbers complies with schedule 1 to the Data Protection Act, 1998.

It is indeed very unlikely that the use of an NI number for a TIR, UPFN, PF or Prosicution would be usable... (Ex. ONS Staff)

If it was ever found to violate the DPA 1988 would it then be the case that any such evidence wouldn't be admissable in court?

As an asside to this, how does a company confirm your identity for a UPFN or TIR etc. when they call up 'the office', it all seems to be a very underhand way of findining it out that may infer a lot more authority than is actually available. Is it something as simple as using a national register of some kind?

 

[RJ]

And conversely turning round and telling someone that you know your 'legal rights' and asking someone such a thing will get their back up somewhat.

Which was my point.

In my experience, such information is invariably volunteered without me asking how much experience they have. It's something they say to try and uphold the illusion that they know what they're talking about and/or patronise the passenger if it's evident it's not physically possible they can match that magnitude of experience.

It's not even a "them vs us" thing - I'm actually pro-railway. So I'm disheartened when I see staff with this shyster mentality letting the side down, allowing their employers and the industry to be brought into disrepute.

 

[Mark_H]

Which Is something I respect, and as you are under no obligation to give it I would understand if you said no.

I guess I am going to have to agree to disagree with some of you when it comes to collecting personal details from passengers. But unless there is a law passed against it TOCs will still encourage their RPIs to collect information such as your NI number if at all possible. What I do want to make perfectly clear however is bullying someone into revealing any information (weather the RPI is entitled to it or not) is wrong and unacceptable.

I'm glad you would understand a refusal, and that you see that any sense of "bullying" into giving extra details would be totally wrong, and I understand where you are coming from. However, I would suggest that the simple fact that someone is acting in an official capacity colours the entire interaction, making it very different from a simple "ask", whether or not the individual member of staff is being perfectly nice and doesn't intend to insist.

People have a tendency to proffer extra information to "officials" whether that official is entitled to it or not, and anyone acting in an official capacity ought to be aware of this and act accordingly. At the minimum, rail staff taking details ought to make clear what parts are required (name and address, provided an offence is reasonably suspected) and what parts are not (everything else).

All this is a training issue for the TOCs, not a criticism of the staff who are operating "on the front line".

On a sightly different note, I do think that saying "unless there is a law passed against it" is a dangerous assumption to make. As others have mentioned, the DPA and other legislation require the collection and retention of personal data to be tested with a sense of proportionality. As some recent cases have shown, retaining data past its immediate use tends to require a higher standard than just collecting. Anyone collecting data just because "there's a box for it" is falling into a trap that could land their TOCs in trouble. Again, this is more an issue for the TOCS than the staff.

 

[jb]

And conversely turning round and telling someone that you know your 'legal rights' and asking someone such a thing will get their back up somewhat..

OK, suppose Monty (say) asks me (say) for my NI number. He does it very politely but (as you might guess) I get a tad irritated and reply, politely enough but perhaps a bit huffily, that he has no business asking for it (those probably aren't my exact words).

Is it reasonable that this will get his back up? Do I need to watch my step thereafter? If the answer is yes I think there's a bit of a problem as regards what being in customer facing roles means. And fwiw I am hugely pro-railway, as you would see from other threads.