EMT Penalty Fares

[ashworth]

I heard on BBC Radio Nottingham this morning that East Midlands Trains are to introduce penalty fares from today 7th December. I was quite surprised as this was the first I had heard about this. I just thought typical Stagecoach!
There doesn't seem to have been much publicity about this and I cannot see any prominant reference to this introduction on the website. Therefore lots of people may be caught out by this.

Is this the first intercity type of route that has penalty fares. Only the main Sheffield to London route was mentioned on the radio but I presume it will be enforced on all EMT routes. There are a large number of rural routes radiating from Nottingham where all the stations are unstaffed with no ticket machines and so the penalty fares system cannot be enforced there. A very different area to South West trains.

EMT are very bad at providing cheap AP tickets involving connections from their main Sheffield to London service which usually means passengers travelling from London to, for example Mansfield, always tend get an AP ticket from London to Nottingham and then pay the extra local fare from Nottingham. Will passengers getting off a London service at Nottingham have to go up to the booking office to buy local tickets and not be allowed to pay on the train any more. Many of these local services are only hourly or less and this could mean a missed connection.

 

[alan]

there have been posters in EMT stations for several weeks, if people buy a valid ticket then they have nothing to worry about. As for buying a AP from London to Nottingham and then a single to Mansfield surely the majority of people would either have a return portion anyway if not could easily purchase one in advance at the same time as getting the AP to and from London (albeit this would not be at a discounted rate)

 

[First class]

London Midland are also introducing Penalty Fares as far as Liverpool with rumours that Northern are to follow suit in the Merseyside area.

 

[LondonLarry]

London Midland are also introducing Penalty Fares as far as Liverpool with rumours that Northern are to follow suit in the Merseyside area.

Blimey - Merseyrail won't know what to do with all that additional income!

 

[CarDriver]

Only the main Sheffield to London route was mentioned on the radio but I presume it will be enforced on all EMT routes.

My Mum informs me Penalty Fares have been introduced at Belper. Having not been staffed since 1968 it now has a ticket machine.

 

[Lampshade]

Are penalty fares going to work on Intercity routes? I can see guards, sorry, 'authorised collectors' ending up in hospital if they demand a PF from Sheffield to London or other long journey. £20 here or there is nothing in the general scheme of things in the London commuter area, we're talking very serious money here.

 

[Mojo]

First Great Western have had them for years, including on InterCity routes.

 

[yorkie]

Are penalty fares going to work on Intercity routes? I can see guards, sorry, 'authorised collectors' ending up in hospital if they demand a PF from Sheffield to London or other long journey. £20 here or there is nothing in the general scheme of things in the London commuter area, we're talking very serious money here.

On the contrary, people are less likely to be abusive on IC routes.

However DfTs own advice is for PFs not to include IC routes.

This penalty fare scheme is highly dubious and quite possibly wouldn't stand up to a legal challenge (if anyone has a few thousand quid spare to challenge them).

 

[Max]

I mentioned the new scheme to a guard on my train last week and she suggested that the penalty fares scheme would (unofficially) only be pursued on the former MML services and would not be applied on 'connect' services. She also mentioned that many guards were very unhappy with the scheme and would be refusing to issue penalty fares come December 7th. The whole scheme is very confusing. For example, the leaflet which EMT have produced specifically lists Dronfield as being a penalty fares station. However, the station isn't managed by them and as far as I'm aware, there are absolutely no ticket issuing facilities, thus the scheme is virtually pointless here!

 

[Lampshade]

What about peak services from Dore and stations on the Hope Valley/Chinley/Stockport as some EMT services stop there? That'll be hard to police given people will just cotton on to the fact they can say they'd travelled with Northern or TPE.

 

[Max]

What about peak services from Dore and stations on the Hope Valley/Chinley/Stockport as some EMT services stop there? That'll be hard to police given people will just cotton on to the fact they can say they'd travelled with Northern or TPE.

As far as I know, Dore isn't covered by the scheme - in fact, much of the EMT network isn't covered. Rather unhelpfully, the map which EMT published to show what stations are included in the scheme isn't posted online. However, I will try to scan it in during the next few days.

 

[Helvellyn]

This penalty fare scheme is highly dubious and quite possibly wouldn't stand up to a legal challenge (if anyone has a few thousand quid spare to challenge them).

So you know better than DfT now, who have to sign this scheme off before EMT can introduce it? Believe me, EMT will have had to do a hell of a lot of groundwork to get this scheme introduced and approved by DfT officials.

 

[Failed Unit]

I mentioned the new scheme to a guard on my train last week and she suggested that the penalty fares scheme would (unofficially) only be pursued on the former MML services and would not be applied on 'connect' services. She also mentioned that many guards were very unhappy with the scheme and would be refusing to issue penalty fares come December 7th. The whole scheme is very confusing. For example, the leaflet which EMT have produced specifically lists Dronfield as being a penalty fares station. However, the station isn't managed by them and as far as I'm aware, there are absolutely no ticket issuing facilities, thus the scheme is virtually pointless here!

I have been ranting about this for a while, it is unenforceable. Lets say someone is travelling from Nottingham - London, they could just say they got on somewhere like Lowdham, which as far as I know has know ticket issuing facilaties. Q. We are then back into the arguement why didn't you buy they ticket at Nottingham? A. Because I didn't want to miss this train!. I guess at Leicester people will use the Ivanhoe line stations as a reason.

Until TOC offer passengers the means to buy tickets they should be banned from issuing penalty fares on their network. If smaller unstaffed stations would never justify a ticket machine then life is hard - no penalty fares. I guess that majority of people that get hit by penalty fares wanted to pay but could't. The fare dodger will just hide in the toilet, or in the case of 2x 222's in multiple just sit in the set with no staff.

 

[Max]

So you know better than DfT now, who have to sign this scheme off before EMT can introduce it? Believe me, EMT will have had to do a hell of a lot of groundwork to get this scheme introduced and approved by DfT officials.

And do you think that the Dft know every nook and cranny of every station on the EMT network? It's as much about local knowledge as anything else. Have you visited Dronfield before? Do you commute between Sheffield and Chesterfield nearly every day? I think not, and therefore you are unlikely to know the specific issues related to this penalty fares scheme. In many respects it will be utterly unenforceable - it's not like the south east where virtually all stations are barriered. I just feel you are being objectionable for the sake of it Helvellyn, when you don't know all the background :roll:.

 

[ashworth]

As for buying a AP from London to Nottingham and then a single to Mansfield surely the majority of people would either have a return portion anyway if not could easily purchase one in advance at the same time as getting the AP to and from London (albeit this would not be at a discounted rate)

I think the main reason why many people do not buy a local ticket in advance for the return journey is that quite often the connections are very tight at Nottingham and it is easier to catch a tram or bus than to wait an hour or more for the next train.
Whenever I return from London, especially on a Saturday evening or Sunday afternoon, when travelling to Hucknall on the Robin Hood Line, there is often only about 5 or 6 minutes for the connections and quite often I miss the connection. I would always much rather catch the train to Hucknall because it takes less than half of the the time of the tram, but if the train has already left I naturally get the tram rather than wait another hour.
If I could not buy a local ticket on the train then I would just catch the tram and not bother even considering the train. I would not want buy the ticket in advance that I may never use and then have to pay again to use the tram.

 

[bluenoxid]

So you know better than DfT now, who have to sign this scheme off before EMT can introduce it? Believe me, EMT will have had to do a hell of a lot of groundwork to get this scheme introduced and approved by DfT officials.

Can anyone actually confirm the scheme has been signed off. It's been rushed in as far as I can tell

 

[Helvellyn]

And do you think that the Dft know every nook and cranny of every station on the EMT network? It's as much about local knowledge as anything else. Have you visited Dronfield before? Do you commute between Sheffield and Chesterfield nearly every day? I think not, and therefore you are unlikely to know the specific issues related to this penalty fares scheme. In many respects it will be utterly unenforceable - it's not like the south east where virtually all stations are barriered. I just feel you are being objectionable for the sake of it Helvellyn, when you don't know all the background :roll:.

Not every station in the South East is not barriered. Not every station in the South East has a Ticket Office. Not every station in the South East has a Ticket Machine (TVM). Yet the South East TOCs still manage to have Penalty Fares schemes in place. Yes, even from stations with no ticket issuing facilities. How do they manage that? They put a Permit to Travel (PERTIS) machine in. Buy a PERTIS and you won't be issued a Penalty Fare. Or you take the FGW approach, and have stations you exclude from your scheme.

As someone who has seen what is required to get a Penalty Fares scheme signed off by the DfT I'm not being objectionable just for the sake of it. What I objected to was the glib statement about someone testing the legality of it in court, because it won't come to that. The scheme has to be legal to be in place.

Oh, and the DfT will withdraw a Penalty Fare scheme if they believe a TOC is not providing all the facilities required to have it in place, or is simply operating it wrongly. It happened to SWT who saw their scheme area cut back to the Travelcard area (excluding the Hounslow Loop) a few years ago.