EMT: Master Cutler Issues

[P156KWJ]

as much as it is interesting to see more HSTs in Nottingham, NOT has 2 tph to London, whereas Sheffield has 1tph. So the 2 trains an hour from nottingham add up to 13 coaches per hour (HST + 222) whereas Sheffield (with similar demand) sometimes gets 5 carriages per hour. The XX:28 HST diagrams from Nottingham are well used, but they should be encouraging more people to use the 5 car 222s to London to balance it out. It only takes about 5-15 mins extra... more time to relax!

 

[richa2002]

but they should be encouraging more people to use the 5 car 222s to London to balance it out. It only takes about 5-15 mins extra... more time to relax!

I doubt anyone in their right mind would deliberately get a train which takes longer and in many people's opinions, more uncomfortable. Those services are there to provide connections to the intermediate stations and for those stations to have a connection to London, not for Nottingham - London passengers to be honest!

 

[tbtc]

I doubt anyone in their right mind would deliberately get a train which takes longer and in many people's opinions, more uncomfortable

Agreed.

The spacing of these services is pretty poor though; two trains an hour from Nottingham to London, but they arrive within twelve minutes of each other - it's just going to mean one busy service an hour.

 

[222001]

Before we see any big changes to Sheffield services again I think we will have to wait for the Derby services to be extended.
As much as I like the Meridians I do agree that HSTs should be on the Sheffield services, it just makes sense. I don't think we are going to see a return though.

 

[WillPS]

Now this morning i saw what looked like a four car working on the 09.52 From Liverpool L/St to Norwich and i know that this will work the last one in to Liverpool arriving at 21.31 but the issues is will it work back formed of four coaches which are an OTCT 158 and an TPE 158 or will it be split and the OTCT 158 work the 15.57 From Norwich?

This is what i find ironic about EMT - they don't seem to have the four car workings on the same diagrams all the time and insist on using the worst 158s they can find for Liverpool-Norwich.

Also they don't seem to look after the units very well at all, as i noticed 158783's carpet was already becoming soiled and seats starting to become dirty. This just shows what an incompetent company it is - they do one thing good then one thing bad.

Good was extra trains on the Week End of Lincoln Xmas Market

Bad no extra carriges regular on Liverpool-Norwich on Saturdays especially when football is on ie Liverpool playing at Home like for this week end it the Derby and there will be no extra carriages.

Strange you say that, as I was on one of those strange Alphaline sprinters from Nottingham-Sheffield yesterday, and I was remarking how clean the seat covers and carpets were. I was reading in the passenger magazine 'Journeys' that they've bought a new machine to deal with it, and it seems to be doing the job pretty well.

I've no idea why they don't strengthen the same units Monday-Friday, or why they don't just split the one (or two?) surplus trains to create a couple of 3-car trains.

How many trains are required to cover the Norwich-Liverpool route on a standard timetabled Monday-Friday?

 

[John_158]

How many trains are required to cover the Norwich-Liverpool route on a standard timetabled Monday-Friday?[/QUOTE]

Well 1O are needed in terms of unit for ten Diagrams using 158s as they do they seem to be using 12 units on average since December 2008 but on a Good day they seem to Have 13 that is with two / three of the diagrams strenghtend ideally then need 20 158 units for them all to be worked as four car workings on the Liverpool-Norwich route.

So if they where to receive extra 153s or 156s they could probably achieve this as in total i would say that EMT would only need 22x158 Units for sole use on Liverpool-Norwich this would indeed reduce they failures of them.

The extra 153s or 156s would be deployed on there Local services instead of having 158s work Local Routes.

 

[me123]

They have a huge number of 158s; 27. That really surprises me! Assuming they use 12 units and need 22, that means 10 158s should be transferred to Liverpool Norwich runs.

Of course, that leaves 10 2 car trains short somewhere. Where could we find replacements in the network? The only operators I can think of are Northern and First Great Western, but they need the trains as much as EMT. Perhaps if Scotrail were to give up a couple of units (I think we could survive with, say, 2 fewer 156s or 158s or something) it would help. Don't see it happening, but I think it's a good option.

Even any surplus pacers could displace local 158s onto Norwich runs; maybe not the most popular option but it would get more trains where they're needed.

 

[John_158]

YEs i agree with you there and to say that Scot Rail have 158868 Sitting Doing nowt so theres 1x158 Nat Ex East Anglia have five 153s due to go off lease soon.

But if Northern gets the bulk of the displaced 150s from LM and Split them back in to two car units then they have a few extras which 156s could be loaned or 153s could be loaned to EMT.

EMT would really be better off getting rid of all the 158s as Good as they are it makes there fleet ast Nottingham Depot a bit more complicated as if they got 156s and 153s with the extra 153s from Nat Ex and possible some from LM when LM Order and Recive Centre Cars for there 172s EMT would have a more flexible and Standard Fleet.

 

[me123]

Would it not be possible to even get a couple of loco hauled trains? I'm sure there's loads of Mark 2s floating about and quite a few locos as well; even a 47 would do a good job.

 

[John_158]

Would it not be possible to even get a couple of loco hauled trains? I'm sure there's loads of Mark 2s floating about and quite a few locos as well; even a 47 would do a good job.

Speed and Weight Restrictions on Lots of EMTs routes !

 

[me123]

Dagnabbit

 

[BJMorley]

One point - Bring National Express Back!! I swear they could run a company!!!
EMT are still a shamble, they'll probably win more years on their franchise in 2015!! :roll: :roll:

 

[class 313]

Yeah, they are a good company, just their timetabling is shocking in some places. And at least they are trying to send the message out to use another service, most TOCs would do nothing.
But If they don't change this problem at the next timetable change my opinion of them will be lowered.

Don't fix what isn't broke.

 

[clagmonster]

For getting extra 158s on the Liverpool-Norwich, I would suggest that when the new DMUs for Cardiff-Portsmouth arrive, some or all of the 158s from that route are transferred to EMT. Alternatively, should the transpennine 170s be replaced by new build, which is rumoured, then the 170s are transferred to Scotrail, displacing 158s from the like of Dunblane stoppers, then those 158s work Liverpool-Norwich.
One thing which I would like to see is the 158/159s split, as far as is possible, into fleets by engine type, thus making maintenance simpler.
As for the Master Cutler, it is obvious that a mistake has been made in reducing first class capacity. The true test of whether or not EMT is a decent company will be if they learn from the mistakes that they make, and alter the diagramming so that this working becomes a HST, and a shop goes on a suitable similarly timed service into St Pancras.

 

[John_158]

For getting extra 158s on the Liverpool-Norwich, I would suggest that when the new DMUs for Cardiff-Portsmouth arrive, some or all of the 158s from that route are transferred to EMT. Alternatively, should the transpennine 170s be replaced by new build, which is rumoured, then the 170s are transferred to Scotrail, displacing 158s from the like of Dunblane stoppers, then those 158s work Liverpool-Norwich.
One thing which I would like to see is the 158/159s split, as far as is possible, into fleets by engine type, thus making maintenance simpler.

EMT as said could do with more 158s and yes that is a Good idear but yet it would be better if they got 156s from Scot Rail for which i think Scot Rail Would be more willing to do as just about every TOC wants to keep hold of 158s.

With regrds to engine Type as far as iam aware they all have Cummins Engines just that the alpha line 158s 860-869 etc have Bigger Engines ie an out put of 450 BHP from each enine as aposed to the Standard 350 BHP engines as from what i know the Perkins Engines where removed along time ago.

 

[WillPS]

I _hope_ that EMT benefit from the London Midland cascade that's going to happen in the not too distant future. However, if EMT find 6 158s they could split them and have all Liverpool-Norwich workings 3-car.

A 3-car refurbished Express Sprinter would do the job rather well, I feel.

 

[WillPS]

Obviously, they can't strengthen all the services given the present stock levels, they'd need another half dozen to be able to do that.

 

[whoosh]

Since when has Liverpool to Norwich had anything to do with the Master Cutler?

This has gone off topic.

Back on topic, - on the first week of the franchise in November 2007, EMT decided they wanted all the HSTs to be a standard formation and replaced the extra first class coach on the 'Pullman' set (used on the Master Cutler) with a standard class one. First class on the service was rammed and passengers were not happy, and the 'Pullman' set was reformed less than a week later.

Apparently they didn't learn from the experience as there are first class passengers standing on departure from Sheffield on the 7 car Meridian which is now used. Imagine how you'd feel if you'd splashed out £££'s to sit down, have breakfast, relax, or maybe do some work on your laptop - and you've got to stand for 2 hours - in first class!!!!! A swap with the HST which goes from Leeds to St Pancras via Nottingham surely needs looking at, as someone has already mentioned.

 

[222001]

on the first week of the franchise in November 2007, EMT decided they wanted all the HSTs to be a standard formation and replaced the extra first class coach on the 'Pullman' set (used on the Master Cutler) with a standard class one. First class on the service was rammed and passengers were not happy, and the 'Pullman' set was reformed less than a week later.

Apparently they didn't learn from the experience as there are first class passengers standing on departure from Sheffield on the 7 car Meridian which is now used. Imagine how you'd feel if you'd splashed out £££'s to sit down, have breakfast, relax, or maybe do some work on your laptop - and you've got to stand for 2 hours - in first class!!!!! A swap with the HST which goes from Leeds to St Pancras via Nottingham surely needs looking at, as someone has already mentioned.

I think EMT were hoping that passengers would use the other two named services departing Sheffield at 06:47 and 07:44. But obviously people dont. One solution - When the Pioneers come from Hull Trains I think they could work it so that a 4/5 car 222 is free in the morning which could be attached to the 7 car Meridian to make a 12 car Meridian (or 11 car if they attached one of the Pioneers). That wouldn't require as much change to times etc. A 12 car Meridian would have 156 first class seats - more than the Pullman HST.

 

[Max]

I think EMT were hoping that passengers would use the other two named services departing Sheffield at 06:47 and 07:44. But obviously people dont. One solution - When the Pioneers come from Hull Trains I think they could work it so that a 4/5 car 222 is free in the morning which could be attached to the 7 car Meridian to make a 12 car Meridian (or 11 car if they attached one of the Pioneers). That wouldn't require as much change to times etc. A 12 car Meridian would have 156 first class seats - more than the Pullman HST.

I'm guessing there could be issues with staffing (2 full sets of staff in each unit) and platform lengths here though.

 

[222001]

I'm guessing there could be issues with staffing (2 full sets of staff in each unit) and platform lengths here though.

Yes true. Could be worth it by the extra money gained by more paying first class customers who are not having to ask for refunds due to standing.
Also Sheffields platform is very long, Chesterfield can take 9 cars, Derby and Leicesters platforms are also quite long. Also Meridians have SDO for up to 13 cars.

 

[Max]

Yes true. Could be worth it by the extra money gained by more paying first class customers who are not having to ask for refunds due to standing.
Also Sheffields platform is very long, Chesterfield can take 9 cars, Derby and Leicesters platforms are also quite long. Also Meridians have SDO for up to 13 cars.

That is indeed true. I'm sure it could work with an 11 car meridian. However, it would seem extremely uneconomical when a HST could, fairly easily, be swapped onto this diagram.

 

[222001]

That is indeed true. I'm sure it could work with an 11 car meridian. However, it would seem extremely uneconomical when a HST could, fairly easily, be swapped onto this diagram.

Yes in the end that is what should be done. They would have to figure it out so that the HST ended up to Nottingham and the Meridian to Sheffield/Corby and I don't know if that would be possible to not disturb the other parts of the diagrams. I suppose it would be possible if a few timings were jigged around.

 

[richa2002]

I think EMT were hoping that passengers would use the other two named services departing Sheffield at 06:47 and 07:44. But obviously people dont. One solution - When the Pioneers come from Hull Trains I think they could work it so that a 4/5 car 222 is free in the morning which could be attached to the 7 car Meridian to make a 12 car Meridian (or 11 car if they attached one of the Pioneers). That wouldn't require as much change to times etc. A 12 car Meridian would have 156 first class seats - more than the Pullman HST.

Really don't think a 12 Car Meridian would fit in St. Pancras.

 

[John_158]

EMT seem to have this strange idea that they have to use units that are in their livery, and something that is ultra modern such as the Merdian so that they can show off - this doesn't work when it causes overcrowding!

Honestly, there are no brains at EMT management - even last night after all theese weeks they decide to only send two carriges for the 17.52 Norwich Departure from Lime St.

It seems as though EMT and DfT don't want people to travel by train anymore as the Liverpool-Norwich route's passenger loadings have dropped dramatically since the timetable changhe and all the recent failures.

The same will probably happen to The Master Cutler Service.

 

[Max]

Can we keep things on-topic thanks? John_158, there are other threads open for the detailed discussion of EMT issues aside from the Cutler and Sheffield-London services in general. Please post your views on the 'connect' fleet in such threads. Thanks!

 

[P156KWJ]

EMT seem to have this strange idea that they have to use units that are in their livery, and something that is ultra modern such as the Merdian so that they can show off - this doesn't work when it causes overcrowding!

Honestly, there are no brains at EMT management - even last night after all theese weeks they decide to only send two carriges for the 17.52 Norwich Departure from Lime St.

It seems as though EMT and DfT don't want people to travel by train anymore as the Liverpool-Norwich route's passenger loadings have dropped dramatically since the timetable changhe and all the recent failures.

The same will probably happen to The Master Cutler Service.

sorry but would you mind not going on about 2 cars on Norwich runs?

Anyway, I've only just noticed that there is now only one breakfast service from Nottingham per day (The Robin Hood or whatever it's called these days). Lousy really, I'm not gonna bother with first class on EMT any more unless it's dirt cheap, pointless really. Virgin Trains - there's some proper service in first class!

 

[D306]

One point - Bring National Express Back!! I swear they could run a company!!!
EMT are still a shamble, they'll probably win more years on their franchise in 2015!! :roll: :roll:

Have you seen the state of the ECML with the fares? Would you want the MML to be like that?

Stagecoach do know how to run a company. I've travelled a few times on EMT and have yet to make a complaint about them. Sure, when I travelled upto the Derbyshire Wayfarer bash I got stuck outside of Leicester for 10 mins but EMT kept the passengers upto date with information and what the problem was.

Very helpful company

 

[P156KWJ]

Have you seen the state of the ECML with the fares? Would you want the MML to be like that?

Stagecoach do know how to run a company. I've travelled a few times on EMT and have yet to make a complaint about them. Sure, when I travelled upto the Derbyshire Wayfarer bash I got stuck outside of Leicester for 10 mins but EMT kept the passengers upto date with information and what the problem was.

Very helpful company

and NX are the ones partly to blame for EMT Connect's problems, they apparently gave duff figures (Central Trains) to the DfT for Liverpool-Norwich, saying it was less busy than it actually was

 

[devon_metro]

Inconveniencing up to 50 First Class passengers who will be on Open Fares, paying for restaurant food doesn't sound anything like a company capable of operating sensibly. Doesn't the 0727 from Sheffield starts from Leeds at 0614, meaning there are no operational difficulties in running and HST on the service. Madness.